Virgin America hangs as its hedge fund owners get antsy

[cruxx@9]

Wow, this post got seriously hijacked. And I've wasted a good part of my day reading it.

I would just like to throw this out there, my dad worked for a real union, IBEW. I grew up union and believe in it 100%. He could go anywhere in the country that was hiring and walk on a job per seniority, and get paid at his level...journeyman or whatever. Can you do that with an ALPA card? Not so much. Does having an ALPA card even get you an interview at an ALPA carrier? I've read the "Flying the Line" books and it was a great read. It was nice to read about back in the days when ALPA was almost a true union.

I still have my ALPA card and pay the inactive dues or whatever it is. I don't do it just for the magazine either. (by the way, would that count to get on one of your "union jumpseats"?)

I agree that being organized has more than just pay benefits. I worked for an ALPA carrier and was very glad to be union, even if it would have been the basketweavers association! Because when Satan bought the airline I was at previous, we would have all been working for $12/hour flying the AirBus. They are still in negotiations and it will be forever...at least they still have a decent contract...because Satan owns them and that is why I quit. Even with a contract, which was great, it was still a sh*tbag place to work, again because satan owned it.

When Alaska says that VA is killing them with lower operating costs and the Alaska pilots need to make less money.....just curious what HE is getting paid? What his bonus is? Is he willing to take a pay cut? Because that my friends is where the fall of the entire country lies. Top Level Greed. When you have CEO's at airlines and other companies receiving $1 million+ dollar bonuses for running thier companies into the ground, you will never make anymore money.

Do I wish the pay and benies were better at VA? Of course, wouldn't everyone want more money and better benies. Do I think we are taking a sacrifice for the time being while the company grows, of course I think we are worth more for what we do. Do I think things will improve for the employees when our airline is more stable...I truely hope so. Do I think now is the time to try to organize...absolutely not. Timing is everything and it may not be ever here...we will see.

I know this. I am happy coming to work. I really enjoy working here. I feel we have a great managment team right now and so far the best place I've ever worked as a pilot. Do I keep my eyes open? Yes. Will this place stay around? Well, I wouldn't be here if I thought different but I am realistic and trying to start my second career because I can't see starting over again in aviation (as much as i love it).

I still get frustrated here as everyone does, and I don't always drink my company allotted Kool Aid servings. In fact there are days, I just kick over the whole glass. But a friend of mine put it perfectly the other day..."I came here to drink the Kool-Aid, because I was tired of drinking piss". And that is about right.


So bring on the scumbag remarks, but ya'll should really grow a set and tell it my face.

 

[Shrek]

Wow, this post got seriously hijacked. And I've wasted a good part of my day reading it.

I would just like to throw this out there, my dad worked for a real union, IBEW. I grew up union and believe in it 100%. He could go anywhere in the country that was hiring and walk on a job per seniority, and get paid at his level...journeyman or whatever. Can you do that with an ALPA card? Not so much. Does having an ALPA card even get you an interview at an ALPA carrier? I've read the "Flying the Line" books and it was a great read. It was nice to read about back in the days when ALPA was almost a true union.

I still have my ALPA card and pay the inactive dues or whatever it is. I don't do it just for the magazine either. (by the way, would that count to get on one of your "union jumpseats"?)

I agree that being organized has more than just pay benefits. I worked for an ALPA carrier and was very glad to be union, even if it would have been the basketweavers association! Because when Satan bought the airline I was at previous, we would have all been working for $12/hour flying the AirBus. They are still in negotiations and it will be forever...at least they still have a decent contract...because Satan owns them and that is why I quit. Even with a contract, which was great, it was still a sh*tbag place to work, again because satan owned it.

When Alaska says that VA is killing them with lower operating costs and the Alaska pilots need to make less money.....just curious what HE is getting paid? What his bonus is? Is he willing to take a pay cut? Because that my friends is where the fall of the entire country lies. Top Level Greed. When you have CEO's at airlines and other companies receiving $1 million+ dollar bonuses for running thier companies into the ground, you will never make anymore money.

Do I wish the pay and benies were better at VA? Of course, wouldn't everyone want more money and better benies. Do I think we are taking a sacrifice for the time being while the company grows, of course I think we are worth more for what we do. Do I think things will improve for the employees when our airline is more stable...I truely hope so. Do I think now is the time to try to organize...absolutely not. Timing is everything and it may not be ever here...we will see.

I know this. I am happy coming to work. I really enjoy working here. I feel we have a great managment team right now and so far the best place I've ever worked as a pilot. Do I keep my eyes open? Yes. Will this place stay around? Well, I wouldn't be here if I thought different but I am realistic and trying to start my second career because I can't see starting over again in aviation (as much as i love it).

I still get frustrated here as everyone does, and I don't always drink my company allotted Kool Aid servings. In fact there are days, I just kick over the whole glass. But a friend of mine put it perfectly the other day..."I came here to drink the Kool-Aid, because I was tired of drinking piss". And that is about right.


So bring on the scumbag remarks, but ya'll should really grow a set and tell it my face.

Baldanza says hi !! :beer:

 

[ualdriver]

Do I think we are taking a sacrifice for the time being while the company grows, of course

See post 150, #1

Basically you're saying that VA needs low pilot wages to help undercut the competition "for the time being while the company grows." And the downward spiral continues. If VA grows and becomes successful with $95/hr Airbus Captains, imagine what the NEXT generation of pilots are going to have to do in order to "sacrifice for the time being while their company grows," in order to undercut VA.

I know this. I am happy coming to work. I really enjoy working here. I feel we have a great managment team right now and so far the best place I've ever worked as a pilot.

See post 150, #4

Let me add that if most union pilots agreed to VA's pilot compensation package, we all would have a WONDERFUL relationship with our management as well. I mean, what management team wouldn't treat their pilot group really, really well when they willingly accept some of the lowest narrowbody compensation packages in the industry? Of course you have a great relationship with management- you all are "buying" that love. Trust me. To the tune of tens of thousands of dollars per year in gross earnings for some of your pilots.

"I came here to drink the Kool-Aid, because I was tired of drinking piss". And that is about right.

see post 150, #4 again

So bring on the scumbag remarks, but ya'll should really grow a set and tell it my face.

What exactly do you mean by this statement?

 

[cruxx@9]

.....

 

[LoveGun]

UALdriver -- you should change your name. Most UAL drivers I meet are a lot more open minded. You're giving your coworkers a bad name.

 

[ualdriver]

Oh, I understand now. For example, our County is growing very rapidly and they're building new schools and a large health provider is building a private hospital just south of me. So the employees working for those new institutions should expect wages significantly less than the going rate for their professions because said institutions are "starting in a hole."

Or if I was planning on opening a new accounting firm and needed CPA's, I should explain to them that although I know CPA's make $X dollars a year in pay and benefits, they should expect significantly less than the going rate because I just opened a new office.

Do you know what would happen in each of the above scenarios? The new school would have no professionals, the new hospital would have no doctors or nurses or therapists, and the new accounting firm would have empty cubicles. Pilots, such as yourself, are the only professionals that I know that are expected to subsidize a company's start up costs. And like I said earlier, as long as there are guys like you that can rationalize their decisions in such a manner, there will be plenty more VA's, Allegiant's, and Skybus's in our future. Don't expect the rest of us to be happy about it or accept rationalizations like the ones you and Daytona peddle on this forum.

And you missed my point about employee/management relationship. My point was that if the rest of us agreed to fly narrowbody aircraft at VA rates, we would have WONDERFUL relationships with our management teams, too. In your previous post you were telling us all how great it is to come to work. You BOUGHT that "great work environment" to the tune of thousands upon thousands of dollars in lost compensation and benefits.

 

[ualdriver]

UALdriver -- you should change your name. Most UAL drivers I meet are a lot more open minded. You're giving your coworkers a bad name.

More open minded about what lovegun? Do you honestly think that the average UAL pilot is happy about Virgin America pilots undercutting our already crappy wages and benefits in the same exact aircraft that we fly? Setting up shop in one of our major hubs and trashing yields in an environment when AIRFARES ARE ALREADY LOW ENOUGH? I mean, seriously. Do you really believe that? We start contract negotiations next month. Do you think VA wages will add contructively to my negotiator's argument that we think our A320 guys are underpaid?

 

[joevollers]

I wish new hires could make more at VA, but as it sits right now, they will gross approx 99000 for their first two years, if they do not upgrade.

Unfortunately, that bar is being lowered by UAL newbies grossing 84000.

 

[cruxx@9]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruxx@9
Do I think we are taking a sacrifice for the time being while the company grows, of course

See post 150, #1

Basically you're saying that VA needs low pilot wages to help undercut the competition "for the time being while the company grows." And the downward spiral continues. If VA grows and becomes successful with $95/hr Airbus Captains, imagine what the NEXT generation of pilots are going to have to do in order to "sacrifice for the time being while their company grows," in order to undercut VA.

[FONT=&quot]OR...since any new airline has to purchase EVERYTHING from computers to airplanes to toilet paper from scratch...there is a bit of a hole to start in. Unlike an established carrier that can use operating revenue (or pilot pay cuts) to invest in their airline with snazzy new paint jobs or CEO bonuses or however they choose to spend that money.

The next generation of pilots will have us to thank for getting the bird off the ground. If it comes to VA becoming stable and compensation has not come up to par...then I guess things will get ugly here too. We will cross that bridge when we get there.

[/FONT]

Originally Posted by cruxx@9
I know this. I am happy coming to work. I really enjoy working here. I feel we have a great managment team right now and so far the best place I've ever worked as a pilot.
See post 150, #4

Let me add that if most union pilots agreed to VA's pilot compensation package, we all would have a WONDERFUL relationship with our management as well. I mean, what management team wouldn't treat their pilot group really, really well when they willingly accept some of the lowest narrowbody compensation packages in the industry? Of course you have a great relationship with management- you all are "buying" that love. Trust me. To the tune of tens of thousands of dollars per year in gross earnings for some of your pilots.

[FONT=&quot]
Hmmmm....SWA is union right? And they have the highest narrowbody compensation package. From what I understand they have a fairly good relationship with management/labor.

Just because you work for Satan's Spawn doesn't mean every management team is f*cked up. Your management team wouldn't be happy with you making $10/hour...they are true SOB's and that's all there is too it.


[/FONT]

 

[cruxx@9]

.....[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Fubijaakr]

I find it hard to believe that you believe anything that comes out of Bill Ayer's mouth.

I don't. I do know that is the rationalization THEY use to screw us. Thanks for giving it to them.

 

[ualdriver]

I wish new hires could make more at VA, but as it sits right now, they will gross approx 99000 for their first two years, if they do not upgrade.

Unfortunately, that bar is being lowered by UAL newbies grossing 84000.

I'm sorry joevollers, but did you include the UAL pilot's 16% tax deferred B&C fund contribution into your equation? Did you adjust that figure to a pretax number in order to have a pretax gross earnings apples to apples comparision? Did you include the UAL pilot's short term and long term disability plans that cost $0 (zero) dollars per month? Did you include his health insurance plan, which for a Chicago based pilot (jr. pilot base), would include a very good quality HMO for $0 (zero) dollars per month?

Or did you just go onto airlinepilotcentral.com, take the hourly wages for the first 2 years, multiply them by $1000, and them come up with those figures you quote? Your numbers look suspiciously like the latter (I just did that calculation from airlinepilotcentral.com and they came out as exactly what you posted).

Price out some 55% same job long term disability plans and throw those monthly payments in to your calculation along with the cost of a short term 90 day disability plan- both with no waiting periods. Throw in what you guys pay per month for health insurance, and don't forget that time a quarter above 82 hours (geez, you don't even have time and a half? Hell JetBlue gets time and a half!) and your 401(k) match. Then rerun those numbers and get back to me. I suspect you'll be surprised with what you come up when comparing those numbers.

Also, keep in mind that we will be entering contract negotiations this April and have every intention of raising wages. What can we expect from your pilot group, besides the NOTHING we've seen so far?

 

[cruxx@9]

Oh, I understand now. For example, our County is growing very rapidly and they're building new schools and a large health provider is building a private hospital just south of me. So the employees working for those new institutions should expect wages significantly less than the going rate for their professions because said institutions are "starting in a hole."

Or if I was planning on opening a new accounting firm and needed CPA's, I should explain to them that although I know CPA's make $X dollars a year in pay and benefits, they should expect significantly less than the going rate because I just opened a new office.

Do you know what would happen in each of the above scenarios? The new school would have no professionals, the new hospital would have no doctors or nurses or therapists, and the new accounting firm would have empty cubicles. Pilots, such as yourself, are the only professionals that I know that are expected to subsidize a company's start up costs. And like I said earlier, as long as there are guys like you that can rationalize their decisions in such a manner, there will be plenty more VA's, Allegiant's, and Skybus's in our future. Don't expect the rest of us to be happy about it or accept rationalizations like the ones you and Daytona peddle on this forum.

And you missed my point about employee/management relationship. My point was that if the rest of us agreed to fly narrowbody aircraft at VA rates, we would have WONDERFUL relationships with our management teams, too. In your previous post you were telling us all how great it is to come to work. You BOUGHT that "great work environment" to the tune of thousands upon thousands of dollars in lost compensation and benefits.

So you would start paying your employees at what rate? The standard pay that a CPA makes in an established firm at the what 10 year payscale? 20 year payscale of their peers? Or would you start them off at a little less to get your business off the ground?

I understand your argument, I really do. But the pay has been in the sh1t bucket long before VA started operating. Some of it had to do with the major carriers duped into excepting huge paycuts so the upper level management could rake in bonuses.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You see, VA operates largely off the graces of other airlines jumpseats. If the union wants to uphold the profession, then there ought to be standards or minimums of contract provisions before professionals are allowed to jumpseat on a fellow union carrier.

Actually, the ALPA Admin manual covers this. Sec.115.E.2 gives Captains policy guidance allowing them to ask for a Union card as additional identification for jumpseat access.

The intent, of course, is to keep non-Union and scab pilots from getting access to the jumpseat. If more ALPA pilots knew and adhered to existing ALPA policy then maybe Sir Dick's boys would have a harder time getting to work to undercut us.

I can't believe even the UAL or AK mgt is happy knowing that they supply a free flight to the majority of VA and JB workers on a daily basis. Quite ironic in a way.

Au contraire, mon ami. In fact, I have had an in depth discussion with my BCP on just this topic. He was ALL FOR the reciprocal agreement. In fact, he negotiated it. Why? Because we have 20 guys who commute from the Bay Area and Virgin's loads are always crappy.

My question to him was: "Angle Lake is making a big deal out of Virgin as the West Coast boogie man, yet we're giving their pilots free transportation to and from work so they can cut our throats? You can't have it both ways. Either they are a threat or they aren't."

All I got was the typical non-responsive management answer.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Never ever in the history of American aviation has an major airline pilot group ever taken a pay cut due to lower wages at their competitor.

B.S. Delta, United and USAir ALL had their narrow body rates lowered to jetBlue levels by the bankruptcy court. Those wages were imposed. You need to check some history before you make statements like this.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Pilots, such as yourself, are the only professionals that I know that are expected to subsidize a company's start up costs. And like I said earlier, as long as there are guys like you that can rationalize their decisions in such a manner, there will be plenty more VA's, Allegiant's, and Skybus's in our future. Don't expect the rest of us to be happy about it or accept rationalizations like the ones you and Daytona peddle on this forum.

Amen!

 

[ualdriver]

So you would start paying your employees at what rate? The standard pay that a CPA makes in an established firm at the what 10 year payscale? 20 year payscale of their peers? Or would you start them off at a little less to get your business off the ground?

I understand your argument, I really do. But the pay has been in the sh1t bucket long before VA started operating. Some of it had to do with the major carriers duped into excepting huge paycuts so the upper level management could rake in bonuses.

No, you'd pay them something RESEMBLING THE GOING RATE. What VA pays in TOTAL pilot compensation doesn't even come close to resembling the going rate. Especially considering that VA wanted experienced Captains who I assume would also act as LCA's when the airline was starting up. VA's rates aren't even CLOSE. THAT'S THE POINT. If you agree with me, even a little, please do something to fix that instead of giving us all a list of reasons why it's "OK" to have $95/hr. Airbus Captains.

And I would tell you that to your face, assuming you weren't bigger than me

 

[joevollers]

.....

 

[ualdriver]

.....

It's a good thing you pulled that question, because you wouldn't have liked that answer I was going to give you, either.

 

[Laboule]

It's a good thing you pulled that question, because you wouldn't have liked that answer I was going to give you, either.

Tough guy! Why don't you logoff and go work on the grammar in your posts? Specifically, practice your use of apostrophes. Not everything is possessive...it's just plural. Use your "high UAL pay" and take some junior college English courses. Some of them give a free steak upon enrollment; you should probably take the free bookmark instead, as you are looking a bit fat lately.

 

[b82rez]

Tough guy! Why don't you logoff and go work on the grammar in your posts? Specifically, practice your use of apostrophes. Not everything is possessive...it's just plural. Use your "high UAL pay" and take some junior college English courses. Some of them give a free steak upon enrollment; you should probably take the free bookmark instead, as you are looking a bit fat lately.

Wow!! You almost got it right there buddy! Except that you're totally wrong.....

 

[ualdriver]

Tough guy! Why don't you logoff and go work on the grammar in your posts? Specifically, practice your use of apostrophes. Not everything is possessive...it's just plural. Use your "high UAL pay" and take some junior college English courses. Some of them give a free steak upon enrollment; you should probably take the free bookmark instead, as you are looking a bit fat lately.

What in the world are you talking about? Post #199? It is = It's Its = possessive form. I'm pretty sure I used it correctly.

If it makes you feel better, I keep a copy of the Associated Press Stylebook right by my desk in order to look up questionable uses of grammar. Actually the pages are well worn as I use it quite often.

So you agree with everything else I wrote except for my use of apostrophes? (notice that I didn't use the word "apostrphe's" like many people would!)

And you'll have to read the last sentence of post 181 to understand the joke I made about cruxx being bigger than me or vice versa or whatever. Hence, the smiley face. It was an attempt at a joke, but perhaps a poor one!

 

[flyipilot]

You see, VA operates largely off the graces of other airlines jumpseats. If the union wants to uphold the profession, then there ought to be standards or minimums of contract provisions before professionals are allowed to jumpseat on a fellow union carrier. I can't believe even the UAL or AK mgt is happy knowing that they supply a free flight to the majority of VA and JB workers on a daily basis. Quite ironic in a way.
Luv

You are very correct. It is odd how UA and AA both control all the gates at ORD. Thus not even wanting to negotiate a deal fro VA to lease from them. That is the management. Yet, both UA and AA will allow VA pilots to jumpseat and help them to work to "compete" with them. That is the union.

 

[cruxx@9]

UALdriver,

I just want to thank you for bringing me to the light! I think I will quit tomorrow and wait for a real airline to hire me. Ok, so which airlines are we allowed to work for again? Just so I'm not a "scab" or whatever. Is it only airlines that belong to ALPA or can it be any other association...because we've already established ALPA really isn't a union, it's a professional association. Can I work for Frontier? I mean they compete with UAL...so probably not. What about going back to Spirit? They are ALPA but they don't make prevailing wage...so is that okay or not?

Or how about a legacy when they start hiring again. When is that? I mean if VA goes out of business and Frontier and Spirit, sh!t that's like almost 100 airplanes out of the domestic market! Damn the majors are going to have to scramble to make up for all that lift! Quick get Kit Darby, it will be a f*cking pilot hiring BOOM! But only at the majors of course. Because without the small airlines around, the CEO's are gonna definately give ya'll a HUGE raise. They won't find another reason to keep your pay where it is of course.

And what exactly am I supposed to do until that happens? I mean I can go work for you as a CPA or something, because you are going to pay so well and have a great retirement and all. Do we get a B-fund in the first year? How much vacation do you offer? Sick Time? Oh sh1t I just thought of something, I won't be current when it's time to go work for a "real airline" so I still won't get hired.

Damn! I guess I should just get out of flying all together because I wasn't as cool as you or good enough pilot to get hired at UAL. Because that is what it was right, you being an astronaut or something. I know...it's because "no one has ever been that close to a MIG-28 before!" And what exactly were you doing there UALdriver?

Or maybe, I never wanted to work at UAL. I mean, it would have been great flying with you all. And for a bonus, I would get to fly with all those pterodactyls in the back of the plane pissing off customers 100 at a time.

Wow, thanks

 

[CaptSeth]

Rather than lambasting pilots at various carriers for allegedly "lowering the bar," I would - with one or two notable exceptions - (if I still had a job in the industry) prefer to offer them support and assistance in their efforts to make gains.

But first I need a job. And I'm not the only one. So, our industry (well, your industry now - I'm living off my savings and government handouts) needs to have a major turnaround before we (or you, anyway) can look forward to a better standard of living.

 

[bluesideup340]

Excellent post.

How about this one?:

7) It's OK because I got 6,000 stock options.

Chef
JetBlue got started the same way. 4000 options.
You are an i----.

 

[fam62c]

I'm guessing this thread isn't about VA's ownership structure anymore. As pilots we sure love to hate each other don't we. In the end the market will sort this whole thing out, the strong will survive and the weak will perish. At some point something has to give because but you can't have the whole industry lose money indefinately.

Maybe some of the posters on here need to lose their jobs to understand that when you are out of work and need a job you take what's available and you don't apologize for it. When you have a good job it's easy to say that you never work for "only" 30,50,70,100K or whatever because it's less than what some other people make to do the same job. Things look a lot different when you need to pay the bills and eat; you do what you have to do (except for crossing a picket line, that's out of bounds) and you shouldn't be judged for wanting to use your experience, skills and training to get a flying job. Should the pilots out of work just "take one for the team" and go hungry so the guys at the legacy carriers can have more money in their paychecks? The idea that pilots who are out of work should just sit there unemployed and refuse jobs where pay is less than "standard" (whatever that even is anymore) is utterly ridiculous. The people at the mortgage company, the power utility, the grocery store and the doctor's office just want their money and they don't care if the money comes from a legacy, LCC, regional, startup or whatever. I don't buy the concept of "unity" when it involves hoping that your fellow pilots lose their jobs and their families suffer. Maybe you work for United, American, Delta, Southwest or whatever, good for you. What if when you were looking for work those airlines weren't hiring or they didn't hire you? Would you have just quit flying rather than accepting a job that didn't pay as much? Class warfare in the airline industry is going to hurt all of us.

 

[goodgig]

Bravo fam62c!

Well put.

 

[Shrek]

I'm guessing this thread isn't about VA's ownership structure anymore. As pilots we sure love to hate each other don't we. In the end the market will sort this whole thing out, the strong will survive and the weak will perish. At some point something has to give because but you can't have the whole industry lose money indefinately.

Maybe some of the posters on here need to lose their jobs to understand that when you are out of work and need a job you take what's available and you don't apologize for it. When you have a good job it's easy to say that you never work for "only" 30,50,70,100K or whatever because it's less than what some other people make to do the same job. Things look a lot different when you need to pay the bills and eat; you do what you have to do (except for crossing a picket line, that's out of bounds) and you shouldn't be judged for wanting to use your experience, skills and training to get a flying job. Should the pilots out of work just "take one for the team" and go hungry so the guys at the legacy carriers can have more money in their paychecks? The idea that pilots who are out of work should just sit there unemployed and refuse jobs where pay is less than "standard" (whatever that even is anymore) is utterly ridiculous. The people at the mortgage company, the power utility, the grocery store and the doctor's office just want their money and they don't care if the money comes from a legacy, LCC, regional, startup or whatever. I don't buy the concept of "unity" when it involves hoping that your fellow pilots lose their jobs and their families suffer. Maybe you work for United, American, Delta, Southwest or whatever, good for you. What if when you were looking for work those airlines weren't hiring or they didn't hire you? Would you have just quit flying rather than accepting a job that didn't pay as much? Class warfare in the airline industry is going to hurt all of us.

I disagree - this seperates the wheat from the chaff. There are no easy choices out there but to undercut wages is short-sighted at best........live with the consequences in the long run. Don't worry you will rationalize that it isn't your fault somehow........

Good luck getting new investors......

 

[Fubijaakr]

I disagree - this seperates the wheat from the chaff. There are no easy choices out there but to undercut wages is short-sighted at best........live with the consequences in the long run. Don't worry you will rationalize that it isn't your fault somehow...

You said it Shrek. What these scumbags either fail to realize or deny outright that it is THEIR actions that are ruining this profession for EVERYBODY.

Perhaps a rereading of Flying the Line 1/2 and or Fate is the Hunter would give them an appreciation of what the old timers did FOR US to make this job worth having.

And it wasn't undercutting other pilot groups. It was "jacking the house" one airline contract at a time. Of course, that requires you to be a bit selfless in the name of the greater good, but that is obviously lost on Virgin, Allegiant and other non-Union pilots.

But, I guess anything for a quick upgrade...