Virgin America hangs as its hedge fund owners get antsy

[b82rez]

Tough guy! Why don't you logoff and go work on the grammar in your posts? Specifically, practice your use of apostrophes. Not everything is possessive...it's just plural. Use your "high UAL pay" and take some junior college English courses. Some of them give a free steak upon enrollment; you should probably take the free bookmark instead, as you are looking a bit fat lately.

Wow!! You almost got it right there buddy! Except that you're totally wrong.....

 

[ualdriver]

Tough guy! Why don't you logoff and go work on the grammar in your posts? Specifically, practice your use of apostrophes. Not everything is possessive...it's just plural. Use your "high UAL pay" and take some junior college English courses. Some of them give a free steak upon enrollment; you should probably take the free bookmark instead, as you are looking a bit fat lately.

What in the world are you talking about? Post #199? It is = It's Its = possessive form. I'm pretty sure I used it correctly.

If it makes you feel better, I keep a copy of the Associated Press Stylebook right by my desk in order to look up questionable uses of grammar. Actually the pages are well worn as I use it quite often.

So you agree with everything else I wrote except for my use of apostrophes? (notice that I didn't use the word "apostrphe's" like many people would!)

And you'll have to read the last sentence of post 181 to understand the joke I made about cruxx being bigger than me or vice versa or whatever. Hence, the smiley face. It was an attempt at a joke, but perhaps a poor one!

 

[flyipilot]

You see, VA operates largely off the graces of other airlines jumpseats. If the union wants to uphold the profession, then there ought to be standards or minimums of contract provisions before professionals are allowed to jumpseat on a fellow union carrier. I can't believe even the UAL or AK mgt is happy knowing that they supply a free flight to the majority of VA and JB workers on a daily basis. Quite ironic in a way.
Luv

You are very correct. It is odd how UA and AA both control all the gates at ORD. Thus not even wanting to negotiate a deal fro VA to lease from them. That is the management. Yet, both UA and AA will allow VA pilots to jumpseat and help them to work to "compete" with them. That is the union.

 

[cruxx@9]

UALdriver,

I just want to thank you for bringing me to the light! I think I will quit tomorrow and wait for a real airline to hire me. Ok, so which airlines are we allowed to work for again? Just so I'm not a "scab" or whatever. Is it only airlines that belong to ALPA or can it be any other association...because we've already established ALPA really isn't a union, it's a professional association. Can I work for Frontier? I mean they compete with UAL...so probably not. What about going back to Spirit? They are ALPA but they don't make prevailing wage...so is that okay or not?

Or how about a legacy when they start hiring again. When is that? I mean if VA goes out of business and Frontier and Spirit, sh!t that's like almost 100 airplanes out of the domestic market! Damn the majors are going to have to scramble to make up for all that lift! Quick get Kit Darby, it will be a f*cking pilot hiring BOOM! But only at the majors of course. Because without the small airlines around, the CEO's are gonna definately give ya'll a HUGE raise. They won't find another reason to keep your pay where it is of course.

And what exactly am I supposed to do until that happens? I mean I can go work for you as a CPA or something, because you are going to pay so well and have a great retirement and all. Do we get a B-fund in the first year? How much vacation do you offer? Sick Time? Oh sh1t I just thought of something, I won't be current when it's time to go work for a "real airline" so I still won't get hired.

Damn! I guess I should just get out of flying all together because I wasn't as cool as you or good enough pilot to get hired at UAL. Because that is what it was right, you being an astronaut or something. I know...it's because "no one has ever been that close to a MIG-28 before!" And what exactly were you doing there UALdriver?

Or maybe, I never wanted to work at UAL. I mean, it would have been great flying with you all. And for a bonus, I would get to fly with all those pterodactyls in the back of the plane pissing off customers 100 at a time.

Wow, thanks

 

[CaptSeth]

Rather than lambasting pilots at various carriers for allegedly "lowering the bar," I would - with one or two notable exceptions - (if I still had a job in the industry) prefer to offer them support and assistance in their efforts to make gains.

But first I need a job. And I'm not the only one. So, our industry (well, your industry now - I'm living off my savings and government handouts) needs to have a major turnaround before we (or you, anyway) can look forward to a better standard of living.

 

[bluesideup340]

Excellent post.

How about this one?:

7) It's OK because I got 6,000 stock options.

Chef
JetBlue got started the same way. 4000 options.
You are an i----.

 

[fam62c]

I'm guessing this thread isn't about VA's ownership structure anymore. As pilots we sure love to hate each other don't we. In the end the market will sort this whole thing out, the strong will survive and the weak will perish. At some point something has to give because but you can't have the whole industry lose money indefinately.

Maybe some of the posters on here need to lose their jobs to understand that when you are out of work and need a job you take what's available and you don't apologize for it. When you have a good job it's easy to say that you never work for "only" 30,50,70,100K or whatever because it's less than what some other people make to do the same job. Things look a lot different when you need to pay the bills and eat; you do what you have to do (except for crossing a picket line, that's out of bounds) and you shouldn't be judged for wanting to use your experience, skills and training to get a flying job. Should the pilots out of work just "take one for the team" and go hungry so the guys at the legacy carriers can have more money in their paychecks? The idea that pilots who are out of work should just sit there unemployed and refuse jobs where pay is less than "standard" (whatever that even is anymore) is utterly ridiculous. The people at the mortgage company, the power utility, the grocery store and the doctor's office just want their money and they don't care if the money comes from a legacy, LCC, regional, startup or whatever. I don't buy the concept of "unity" when it involves hoping that your fellow pilots lose their jobs and their families suffer. Maybe you work for United, American, Delta, Southwest or whatever, good for you. What if when you were looking for work those airlines weren't hiring or they didn't hire you? Would you have just quit flying rather than accepting a job that didn't pay as much? Class warfare in the airline industry is going to hurt all of us.

 

[goodgig]

Bravo fam62c!

Well put.

 

[Shrek]

I'm guessing this thread isn't about VA's ownership structure anymore. As pilots we sure love to hate each other don't we. In the end the market will sort this whole thing out, the strong will survive and the weak will perish. At some point something has to give because but you can't have the whole industry lose money indefinately.

Maybe some of the posters on here need to lose their jobs to understand that when you are out of work and need a job you take what's available and you don't apologize for it. When you have a good job it's easy to say that you never work for "only" 30,50,70,100K or whatever because it's less than what some other people make to do the same job. Things look a lot different when you need to pay the bills and eat; you do what you have to do (except for crossing a picket line, that's out of bounds) and you shouldn't be judged for wanting to use your experience, skills and training to get a flying job. Should the pilots out of work just "take one for the team" and go hungry so the guys at the legacy carriers can have more money in their paychecks? The idea that pilots who are out of work should just sit there unemployed and refuse jobs where pay is less than "standard" (whatever that even is anymore) is utterly ridiculous. The people at the mortgage company, the power utility, the grocery store and the doctor's office just want their money and they don't care if the money comes from a legacy, LCC, regional, startup or whatever. I don't buy the concept of "unity" when it involves hoping that your fellow pilots lose their jobs and their families suffer. Maybe you work for United, American, Delta, Southwest or whatever, good for you. What if when you were looking for work those airlines weren't hiring or they didn't hire you? Would you have just quit flying rather than accepting a job that didn't pay as much? Class warfare in the airline industry is going to hurt all of us.

I disagree - this seperates the wheat from the chaff. There are no easy choices out there but to undercut wages is short-sighted at best........live with the consequences in the long run. Don't worry you will rationalize that it isn't your fault somehow........

Good luck getting new investors......

 

[Fubijaakr]

I disagree - this seperates the wheat from the chaff. There are no easy choices out there but to undercut wages is short-sighted at best........live with the consequences in the long run. Don't worry you will rationalize that it isn't your fault somehow...

You said it Shrek. What these scumbags either fail to realize or deny outright that it is THEIR actions that are ruining this profession for EVERYBODY.

Perhaps a rereading of Flying the Line 1/2 and or Fate is the Hunter would give them an appreciation of what the old timers did FOR US to make this job worth having.

And it wasn't undercutting other pilot groups. It was "jacking the house" one airline contract at a time. Of course, that requires you to be a bit selfless in the name of the greater good, but that is obviously lost on Virgin, Allegiant and other non-Union pilots.

But, I guess anything for a quick upgrade...

 

[Shrek]

You said it Shrek. What these scumbags either fail to realize or deny outright that it is THEIR actions that are ruining this profession for EVERYBODY.

Perhaps a rereading of Flying the Line 1/2 and or Fate is the Hunter would give them an appreciation of what the old timers did FOR US to make this job worth having.

And it wasn't undercutting other pilot groups. It was "jacking the house" one airline contract at a time. Of course, that requires you to be a bit selfless in the name of the greater good, but that is obviously lost on Virgin, Allegiant and other non-Union pilots.

But, I guess anything for a quick upgrade...

You assume they have heard of such a book as Flying The Line 1/2........:erm:

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Chef
JetBlue got started the same way. 4000 options.
You are an i----.

I know -- there's a lot implied in my posts. Welcome to flightinfo.

 

[fam62c]

I disagree - this seperates the wheat from the chaff. There are no easy choices out there but to undercut wages is short-sighted at best........live with the consequences in the long run. Don't worry you will rationalize that it isn't your fault somehow........

Good luck getting new investors......

What exactly is "undercutting" wages anyway? I mean if a pilot at UAL or USAirways flies a narrowbody aircraft for less than a Southwest pilot are they undercutting wages? Should they quit their jobs rather than working for less than another carrier pays? I mean they do have that option they could "take one for the team" and just leave the profession (not an easy choice as you say but we all have to make tough choices, right) rather than doing the job for less than others get paid to do it; would that make sense to you? That's the choice that you are asking the VA pilots to make. Is it OK for a UAL, USAirways or Alaska pilot to fly a plane for less than a Southwest pilot but not OK for a VA pilot to work for less than a UAL pilot? Where do we draw the line? Is it OK to "undercut" Southwest if you are unionized but not OK if you work for a non-union start-up? I'm sure the narrowbody guys who work for the legacy carriers can "rationalize" working for less than Southwest and say that it's not their fault. When Southwest started they were working harder for less money than their major airline competitors where they wrong to take those jobs? Do YOU want to tell a Southwest pilot with 30 years on the job that he "undercut" the profession and should never have taken the job? Whatever you fly and whoever you fly it for if you are not receiving the highest pay rates in the industry for that size equipment, seat and longevity I recommend that you quit your job to defend the profession rather than undercutting another pilot group.


For the record I don't work for VA, I don't work anywhere anymore but I know what it's like to lose a job after years in the profession. Also, I spent more time and gave more effort as a union officer for more years than 95% of all airline pilots ever will while at my former carrier. I've seen a lot of good people end up on the street through no fault of their own, it's just the luck of the draw in this industry. I'm never going to be the one to judge somebody who needs to provide for their family for taking what work is available when they need a paycheck as long as they don't cross a picket line. It looks a lot different when you're on the inside looking out than when you're on the outside looking in.

Next time you see a VA pilot face to face at least have the guts to tell them that you hope they lose their jobs and end up on the street. It's a lot different to say these things on an anonymous computer forum than it is when you are looking at another pilot who isn't that different from you. I hope you keep your job in this mess, I don't wish hard times on anybody because I know what it feels like. Just remember though, if the circumstances had been different it could be you who was out work and needed a job when times were tough and options were limited. The old saying about not judging someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes was first uttered by someone who was obviously a lot wiser than you. The "wheat from the chaff" my a$$, I don't even know why I bothered to type this; it's not even worth the effort.

 

[Fubijaakr]

What exactly is "undercutting" wages anyway? I mean if a pilot at UAL or USAirways flies a narrowbody aircraft for less than a Southwest pilot are they undercutting wages?

You know I LOVE it when someone uses this example. Both those carriers had their wages reduced BY BANKRUPTCY court to the rates of the NON-Union darling at the time...jetBlue. Or did you forget that?

Should they quit their jobs rather than working for less than another carrier pays? I mean they do have that option they could "take one for the team" and just leave the profession (not an easy choice as you say but we all have to make tough choices, right) rather than doing the job for less than others get paid to do it; would that make sense to you?

No, but they didn't VOLUNTARILY go to a low pay non-Union shop in the first place. Again, those wages were IMPOSED on them by the bankruptcy court at the request of their management. Why? To match the low pay currently in force at jetBlue at the time in order to more effectively "compete".

What is it about that you can't understand?

That's the choice that you are asking the VA pilots to make. Is it OK for a UAL, USAirways or Alaska pilot to fly a plane for less than a Southwest pilot but not OK for a VA pilot to work for less than a UAL pilot?

Not at all. AGAIN, those rates were either imposed by the court or an arbitrator in response to the kind of wages paid by NON-UNION carriers to pilots who VOLUNTARILY went there looking for a job. Pilots who KNEW they were working for substandard wages/benefits but went there anyway in order to either jump ahead to a left seat or for some other reason.

Do YOU want to tell a Southwest pilot with 30 years on the job that he "undercut" the profession and should never have taken the job? Whatever you fly and whoever you fly it for if you are not receiving the highest pay rates in the industry for that size equipment, seat and longevity I recommend that you quit your job to defend the profession rather than undercutting another pilot group.

SWA is unionized. They have negotiated a model contract with a management that is somewhat more enlightened about employee relations than the average airline.

I'm never going to be the one to judge somebody who needs to provide for their family for taking what work is available when they need a paycheck as long as they don't cross a picket line.

Why limit your thinking? Because they're the kind of guys who WOULD cross your picket line.

Next time you see a VA pilot face to face at least have the guts to tell them that you hope they lose their jobs and end up on the street.

Its obvious YOU DO WORK for VA despite your protestations to the contrary.

The old saying about not judging someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes was first uttered by someone who was obviously a lot wiser than you. The "wheat from the chaff" my a$$, I don't even know why I bothered to type this; it's not even worth the effort.

Because you're uniform is black. Just like your morality.

 

[goodgig]

or for some other reason.

Because you're uniform is black. Just like your morality.

And what do you say to the hungry pilot who has a family to feed?

It is what it is. Do you feel that righteous about an engineer who works at a small firm for 60K? Vs. someone at GE who makes 120K?

They both have family's.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I just don't understand all those "Who have theirs" vs. those who are trying to get theirs.
I would say fight your fight within your fence, and let those in another playground fight a different fight.

 

[Mr.B]

You said it Shrek. What these scumbags either fail to realize or deny outright that it is THEIR actions that are ruining this profession for EVERYBODY.

Perhaps a rereading of Flying the Line 1/2 and or Fate is the Hunter would give them an appreciation of what the old timers did FOR US to make this job worth having.

And it wasn't undercutting other pilot groups. It was "jacking the house" one airline contract at a time. Of course, that requires you to be a bit selfless in the name of the greater good, but that is obviously lost on Virgin, Allegiant and other non-Union pilots.

But, I guess anything for a quick upgrade...

Fate is the Hunter.....classic. Undercutting your fellow aviator or those who follow was unthinkable.

 

[goodgig]

Yeah, well, it's a new world out there.

 

[Shrek]

Used to be based at LAX there famster.......it has been done - tactfully to jumpseat riders.

I am sure you wouldn't believe me but I would expect that from a guy who just "understands that a guy has to feed his family" damned be the consequences. THAT is a very big part of the problem and until it is stopped - wages/benefits/work rules will stagnate....

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I disagree - this seperates the wheat from the chaff. There are no easy choices out there but to undercut wages is short-sighted at best........live with the consequences in the long run. Don't worry you will rationalize that it isn't your fault somehow........

Good luck getting new investors......

Hey Shrek were you at Spirit???

 

[Shrek]

When were you there Pogue?