Virgin America down to 22 million in unrestricted cash

[waveflyer]

Scope has hurt everyone, the least of which is the mainline pilot who got to stay on the property. Youre an absolute idiot.

 

[redflyer65]

Hey Scope,

EVERYONE would be stagnate at a major if you guys hadn't opened the floodgate on the RJ's. Pilots at every major have been damaged because of it.

 

[waveflyer]

The problem with guys who think like scope is that everything is relative. There isn't an objective reality in his world to compare work rules and pay. It's something pilots have been awful at.

When contracts were good- Southwest was the bain of the industry b/c they paid less- forgetting the fact that they still earned much more than the average professional in the world that we pay mortgages to. IN the regional world and post BK major contracts, noone compares the crappy wages to the rest of society. My regional pays WELL in the first year - We make $27/hour vs skywest's $20/ hour. Meanwhile it still doesn't buy much in the real world. I made $30k in my first year at an alpa major- that's crap money- and i mean absolutely stupid.

I made $70k in my first year at SW.

Whatever southwest used to be- they have a long standing history of happy and healthy employees who enjoy their job. We can compare penis's if you like, but the obsession with hating southwest doesn't do any of us any good.

A c-student accountant will do better financially than the average pilot across the industry these days. That is a more important point than whether or not one airline's pilots are doing slightly better or worse than another airline's pilots.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

The problem with guys who think like scope is that everything is relative. There isn't an objective reality in his world to compare work rules and pay. It's something pilots have been awful at.

Says the kid who paid for his job! That's hysterical coming from a group that's notorious for selling out the junior guys!

When contracts were good- Southwest was the bain of the industry b/c they paid less- forgetting the fact that they still earned much more than the average professional in the world that we pay mortgages to.

Keep telling yourself that. It's that same kind of mentality that allows places like skybus and va to prosper. Of course you paid for your job, so there's no surprise there.

IN the regional world and post BK major contracts, noone compares the crappy wages to the rest of society. My regional pays WELL in the first year - We make $27/hour vs skywest's $20/ hour. Meanwhile it still doesn't buy much in the real world. I made $30k in my first year at an alpa major- that's crap money- and i mean absolutely stupid.

Yet paying for you job makes absolute sense.
You are a complete idiot.

I made $70k in my first year at SW.

Yeah, we know about your special services you provide during your layovers.....:blush:

Whatever southwest used to be- they have a long standing history of happy and healthy employees who enjoy their job. We can compare penis's if you like, but the obsession with hating southwest doesn't do any of us any good.

I don't hate southwest, just loudmouth little peckerheads like you who spout their nut drainers about how everyone else ruined the industry, without looking in the mirror at his own group.

A c-student accountant will do better financially than the average pilot across the industry these days. That is a more important point than whether or not one airline's pilots are doing slightly better or worse than another airline's pilots.

Actually the average "union" garbage/truck driver will...............

 

[ultrarunner]

I had to pay for a 4-year college education to even apply to major airlines in the day. And here on FI I'm JUST NOW learning that I'm a low-life because I paid to play... I'm devastated.....

Thanks alot!


Off to find a therapist.....wish me luck in my recovery....

 

[Bavarian Chef]

You're right. VA (so far) isn't responsible (that I know of) for anyone else's pay, work rules, etc., going down further. Further, I don't believe the regionals have necessarily driven down wages- they've simply just caused mainline jobs to disappear. Mainline pilots of the 1990's are responsible for that. Find a post where I lay the blame of mainline pay erosion on the regionals. You won't find it.

Now I also believe that even if the mainline pilots of the 1990's had been able to predict the future and somehow know how the regional airline would grow and replace mainline flying, it wouldn't have just delayed the inevitable. During the bankruptcies of the 2000's, airline management would have gotten the regional jets they wanted anyway.

But again, you miss the point. Have you ever heard of the saying "Those that forget history are doomed to repeat the past?". Those of us that lived through the last downward spiral are well aware of the role the LCC's played in that destruction. Wages got dragged down, pensions lost, work rules trashed because mainline pilots couldn't compete with a Jetblue pilot making half what a United pilot was making. And of course, the JetBlue, Frontier, whoever, pilots of the time all told us how they were small, only had "30" airplanes, etc. Then a few years later, they have a 100 airplanes and are massively undercutting us.

So when you wonder why airlines like VA are held in such contempt, why many of us hate having you on our jumpseat, why you read snide remarks about VA on forums such as this, you know why. Many of us already have heard all the excuses before. We already have seen the damage "small" undercutting airlines have done in the past and don't want to be "doomed" to repeat it again, especially when many of us are in contract negotiations and are trying to lift the bar back up, of course with absolutely no help from VA pilots.

So I'll leave the last sentences to the two of you as the words I have typed above are nothing new. I already have read the rationalizations that will follow 10 years ago when they were typed by shiny, new JetBlue, Valujet, and Frontier pilots. I'm done.

Excellent post.

Listening to the VA story (and VA pilot defense mechanisms) brings up some indigestion from the same exact JB story 10 years ago.

 

[front9]

hyp·o·crite
Pronunciation: \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritēs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date: 13th century
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
3 : Bavarian Chef
4 : Ualdriver
— hypocrite adjective

 

[waveflyer]

Ualdriver-
actually I DO make the point that regional wages have helped deteriorate mainline wages-it's basic divide and conquer. Follow the trail again- regional pilots have no leverage bc of HOW their market is set up- if one regional gets toostrong, demands too much- it is shrunk and another company is built up to replace it- these regional pilots get no vote or representation among the brands that fly on their tail- they get no vote to how much flying gets outsourced- they are the very definition of disenfranchised-

Now VA is being built (or jBlu) - Rey need pilots- there are thousands of rj captains proficient in jets, glass, fms, and 121 ops. Nothing VA is doing is anything that these rj capts haven't been doing for years-

VA now only needs to pay enough to attract pilots away from regionals. They will fill classes with no problem as long as they pay just enough more than the regionals that mainline pilots created and allowed. And if you're a more qualified furloughee or layed off from a bk carrier- you have to take the wage bc VA and you know that there are plenty of rj capts for whom VA actually IS a real step up.

Now VA wages help drive down wages at mainline and it all comes full circle.

Scope relief is an insidious bastard.

 

[mvedepo]

I don't think you guys realize that our classes are not filled with RJ drivers. There are a few yes, but our most recent classes have been predominately Midwest, ATA, and Aloha. Competitive time right now is around 12,000 - 14,000 hours. So don't think that people are coming here to fly "the big jets."

 

[thruthemurk]

I don't think you guys realize that our classes are not filled with RJ drivers. There are a few yes, but our most recent classes have been predominately Midwest, ATA, and Aloha. Competitive time right now is around 12,000 - 14,000 hours. So don't think that people are coming here to fly "the big jets."

All of whom made more at their old jobs. They arent coming to VA for the awesome opportunity. How bout 3 years ago?

 

[mvedepo]

"Awesome opportunity" is a relative term. Yes they were making more at their last carrier. But every single one that I know here is happy as hell to be here and thankful that this "awesome opportunity" was available to them.

As for 3 years ago we were hiring mostly USAir, JetBlue, USA3000, etc. They weren't loading up in regional guys. They were looking for guys with good experience due to the fast upgrade.

And besides, what wrong with RJ guys? Last I checked the elitist "legacy" carriers filled their new hire classes predominately with "lowly" RJ pilots. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander right?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

hyp·o·crite
Pronunciation: \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritēs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date: 13th century
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
3 : Bavarian Chef
4 : Ualdriver
— hypocrite adjective

In your eyes. But I didn't come here ten years ago (more like 5). I am willing to admit what JB pilots have done (and continue to do) to the industry. Always have on this board.

But instead of quitting, or go somewhere else, I voted last year, and will vote again.

We are taking it back (or were).

Don't get all emotional about an anonymous internet post, Sally.

 

[jetbluedog]

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_02/b4210064436433.htm

VA is going to flop in 2011 - that's my prediction with BO still in office.

"If something happens—and something always seems to happen in this industry, whether it's fuel prices or war or SARS—they're in trouble."

 

[ATRCA]

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_02/b4210064436433.htm

VA is going to flop in 2011 - that's my prediction with BO still in office.

"If something happens—and something always seems to happen in this industry, whether it's fuel prices or war or SARS—they're in trouble."

Wow, nice job. You resurrected an old thread that postulated the looming demise of VA....................except that VA is still operating business as usual. What's the point again?

Oh, that's right. The point is that VA is "nearing it's end" just like B6 has been for what??? close to a decade now??

NEWS FLASH!! We're all going out of business, some just faster than others!

Nothing to see here........

 

[Ex737Driver]

Wow, nice job. You resurrected an old thread that postulated the looming demise of VA....................except that VA is still operating business as usual. What's the point again?

Oh, that's right. The point is that VA is "nearing it's end" just like B6 has been for what??? close to a decade now??

NEWS FLASH!! We're all going out of business, some just faster than others!

Nothing to see here........

Exactly............If I had a nickel for every CEO that said we were going to turn a profit this year..........