Virgin America down to 22 million in unrestricted cash

[ualdriver]

That's it, blame the small new guy for all of the problems that started occurring ten years before they even showed up. Skybus was around for what, a year and a half? Had maybe 20 airplanes. VA has been around for less than 3 years and just took delivery of airplane number 30.

You're right. VA (so far) isn't responsible (that I know of) for anyone else's pay, work rules, etc., going down further. Further, I don't believe the regionals have necessarily driven down wages- they've simply just caused mainline jobs to disappear. Mainline pilots of the 1990's are responsible for that. Find a post where I lay the blame of mainline pay erosion on the regionals. You won't find it.

Now I also believe that even if the mainline pilots of the 1990's had been able to predict the future and somehow know how the regional airline would grow and replace mainline flying, it wouldn't have just delayed the inevitable. During the bankruptcies of the 2000's, airline management would have gotten the regional jets they wanted anyway.

But again, you miss the point. Have you ever heard of the saying "Those that forget history are doomed to repeat the past?". Those of us that lived through the last downward spiral are well aware of the role the LCC's played in that destruction. Wages got dragged down, pensions lost, work rules trashed because mainline pilots couldn't compete with a Jetblue pilot making half what a United pilot was making. And of course, the JetBlue, Frontier, whoever, pilots of the time all told us how they were small, only had "30" airplanes, etc. Then a few years later, they have a 100 airplanes and are massively undercutting us.

So when you wonder why airlines like VA are held in such contempt, why many of us hate having you on our jumpseat, why you read snide remarks about VA on forums such as this, you know why. Many of us already have heard all the excuses before. We already have seen the damage "small" undercutting airlines have done in the past and don't want to be "doomed" to repeat it again, especially when many of us are in contract negotiations and are trying to lift the bar back up, of course with absolutely no help from VA pilots.

So I'll leave the last sentences to the two of you as the words I have typed above are nothing new. I already have read the rationalizations that will follow 10 years ago when they were typed by shiny, new JetBlue, Valujet, and Frontier pilots. I'm done.

 

[NEDude]

You're right. VA (so far) isn't responsible (that I know of) for anyone else's pay, work rules, etc., going down further. Further, I don't believe the regionals have necessarily driven down wages- they've simply just caused mainline jobs to disappear. Mainline pilots of the 1990's are responsible for that. Find a post where I lay the blame of mainline pay erosion on the regionals. You won't find it.

Now I also believe that even if the mainline pilots of the 1990's had been able to predict the future and somehow know how the regional airline would grow and replace mainline flying, it wouldn't have just delayed the inevitable. During the bankruptcies of the 2000's, airline management would have gotten the regional jets they wanted anyway.

But again, you miss the point. Have you ever heard of the saying "Those that forget history are doomed to repeat the past?". Those of us that lived through the last downward spiral are well aware of the role the LCC's played in that destruction. Wages got dragged down, pensions lost, work rules trashed because mainline pilots couldn't compete with a Jetblue pilot making half what a United pilot was making. And of course, the JetBlue, Frontier, whoever, pilots of the time all told us how they were small, only had "30" airplanes, etc. Then a few years later, they have a 100 airplanes and are massively undercutting us.

So when you wonder why airlines like VA are held in such contempt, why many of us hate having you on our jumpseat, why you read snide remarks about VA on forums such as this, you know why. Many of us already have heard all the excuses before. We already have seen the damage "small" undercutting airlines have done in the past and don't want to be "doomed" to repeat it again, especially when many of us are in contract negotiations and are trying to lift the bar back up, of course with absolutely no help from VA pilots.

So I'll leave the last sentences to the two of you as the words I have typed above are nothing new. I already have read the rationalizations that will follow 10 years ago when they were typed by shiny, new JetBlue, Valujet, and Frontier pilots. I'm done.

I am sorry that you have to deal with the reality of a free market. The country we live in encourages start-ups and free enterprise. That means new companies and new ideas.

FYI A five year JetBlue A320 captain makes $145/hr, a ten year A320 captain makes $155. The same rates for a United A320 captain are $128 and $134 respectively. Why are you lowering the bar and complaining that other are doing the same thing? Okay for you but not for others huh?

 

[Mike man]

what happened to the "Move the tread to the correct area" moderator?

 

[Fubijaakr]

FYI A five year JetBlue A320 captain makes $145/hr, a ten year A320 captain makes $155. The same rates for a United A320 captain are $128 and $134 respectively. Why are you lowering the bar and complaining that other are doing the same thing? Okay for you but not for others huh?

FYI, United narrowbody pilots were making over $200 an hour until Mr. Tilton took them Chapter 11, IMPOSED the $129 an hour jetBlue rate and terminated their A plan to match the jetBlue retirement program.

THAT, my friend, is exactly what he means by undercutting.

Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

UAL-
VA is a step up from skywest or any regional.
Look in the mirror before you slam them.

As for you Jayme- competition is a mother ********************er- I wish you the best- but when I'm at work- I'm trying to win

So is buying your job to compete!
Too bad you couldn't have just gone the old fashioned way and gotten on with a company that pays you to show up, and not the other way.

 

[chppr5]

I am sorry that you have to deal with the reality of a free market. The country we live in encourages start-ups and free enterprise. That means new companies and new ideas.

FYI A five year JetBlue A320 captain makes $145/hr, a ten year A320 captain makes $155. The same rates for a United A320 captain are $128 and $134 respectively. Why are you lowering the bar and complaining that other are doing the same thing? Okay for you but not for others huh?

Compare the whole pay package. Add in B and C fund and quality of medical coverage. Now we are at about the same pay package. Then remember that UAL's contract was negotiated with the BK gun to our head. If you and others are happy to to have the same pay package as a bankruptcy contract then we have nothing to look forward to in this industry!

 

[Scope out RJ's]

FYI, United narrowbody pilots were making over $200 an hour until Mr. Tilton took them Chapter 11, IMPOSED the $129 an hour jetBlue rate and terminated their A plan to match the jetBlue retirement program.

THAT, my friend, is exactly what he means by undercutting.

That is exactly what the southwest pilots perfected!

 

[Splert]

I am sorry that you have to deal with the reality of a free market. The country we live in encourages start-ups and free enterprise. That means new companies and new ideas.

FYI A five year JetBlue A320 captain makes $145/hr, a ten year A320 captain makes $155. The same rates for a United A320 captain are $128 and $134 respectively. Why are you lowering the bar and complaining that other are doing the same thing? Okay for you but not for others huh?

Why stop there:

We have a former UAL CA in our Training department.

He is still covered under UAL health plan.

Why?

What is VA health care option for Medically Retired Pilots?

We also have a former NWA guy too.

If a VA pilot is forced to Medically Retire what is the income replacement provided by VA? An application to Walmart or 60% of base pay to age 65 that is not coordinated with other W2 income or 1099's?

Pay values are cool and sh!t but just comparing pay values to pay values misses the other 90% of a pilot group contract v your handshake.

UAL rates and it's other protections are far better than whatever VA is paying you dorks.

 

[Blue Dude]

FYI A five year JetBlue A320 captain makes $145/hr, a ten year A320 captain makes $155. The same rates for a United A320 captain are $128 and $134 respectively. Why are you lowering the bar and complaining that other are doing the same thing? Okay for you but not for others huh?

Speaking as one of those 10 year JetBlue captains, I would gladly trade my pay scale for United's entire contract right now, no questions asked. The pay scale is the least of the issues. We're otherwise naked. I already have to bank the entire raise against a career disaster (and pay taxes on it), so it's not a bargain.

We finally got our scale up to industry average this past year - the new industry average after multiple bankruptcies and pay matches to our *old, old* 1999 rates that you somehow thought acceptable in 2007.

What's so "nice" about our pay rates is that they're supposed to automatically adjust to the industry average every year in lieu of a COLA. That way we kinda sorta get the COLA built into everyone else's pay rates. But what's this? JetBlue would like to include - you guessed it! - Virgin America's rates into the mix this year. Which offsets large gains by Southwest and the COLA's from everyone else. I guess those awesome "average rates" will be reduced by inflation for a while, since we can't expect any more gains as long as you're in the mix. Thanks again.

BTW, fubi, you were right. (That hurt to say.) Our 2001 rates, better than the starter 1999 rates but still low, that were OK for a few years to keep us on our feet after 9/11 turned out to be permanent until we had our first union vote. I don't think too many pilots at JetBlue would give this much slack for this long if we had the chance for a do-over, particularly in regards to the E190 rates. Hey, VA pilots, learn from our experience! You wanted JetBlue-lite, you've got it! Wake up! You're being played!

 

[waveflyer]

If you guys are such pro union socialists, why do such a majority of you vote republican?

These types of posts are why UAL pilots are so universally hated and thought of as arrogant and smug. You take no responsibility for your own situation. YOU didn't stand up to outsourcing. YOU keep showing up for work. Most of YOU vote republican, and by so doing- undercut your unions efforts.
Ualdriver - you didn't say regional pay caused your paycut but I am.
Connect the dots- Virgin pay is substantially better than regional pay. Regionals will never have leverage to get great contracts- bc if they do, they'll be downsized and some other operator will be built up from nothing. (Regionals competing for contracts within a brand, is a much worse thing than a stand alone brand entering a market trying to get a foothold and competing.) Regional pilots get NO vote to how much flying gets sent to them. ALPA pilots do vote- and blame bankruptcies all you want, but it's a bs excuse- you guys were selling out my generation long before the BKs-

Bottom line- you thought you could sell out your junior pilots and that would not come back to haunt you- LCCs pay what it takes to attract qualified pilots to their airlines. Bc of regionals that ALPA pilots negotiated into existence- they have more than enough to draw from the regionals at their rates.

United and delta and all alpa carriers are far more responsible for the state of the industry than anything VA has done.