Virgin America down to 22 million in unrestricted cash

[Scope out RJ's]

Winner winner.

Loser loser!

Legacy pilots can't stand that they have been the scourge and source of the industry's problems and ultimately their own paycuts. They didn't have the guts to stand up to outsourcing and the long term affects have been devastating to their own career.

Outsourcing is only part of it junior. Having to compete with scumbag outfits that were pay for training and brought the industry down to low pay and benefits were the other part of it. How many people had southwest as their number 1 choice in the 90's? It was a place where people went that couldn't get on at the legacies, who by the way paid much better.

As long as there are disenfranchised very capable regional pilots in the country- VA will be able to attract pilots at their crappy payrates. The price point VA execs hire pilots at comes from being able to attract pilots away from the regionals that legacy pilots helped create.

Same thing with the pay for training companies!

I wonder how much VA would have to pay if "regional" pilots were actually part of the seniority list whose logo is on their tail?

Probably not much better than their pay now.

I agree too. VA isn't going anywhere.

unfortunately, I have to agree too.

 

[ualdriver]

http://industry.bnet.com/travel/100...ings-still-losing-money-but-less-than-before/

This blogger/reporter (clearly the lines are blurred these days) mentions that VA now has a 107 million dollar line of credit available on five days notice and ends the article with the following quote:

"Not a great quarter for the airline, but it was certainly better than last year. That breathing room in terms of cash position must be nice, and with industry revenue trends looking up, it could end up being a much better year for Virgin America in 2010."

Clearly this guy thinks things are looking up, not down for VA.

Also VA is not acting like an airline that is desperate - two new destinations confirmed, three more to be announced by the end of the year, six new airplanes the remainder of this year and one per month next year.

Too bad many on this board gleefully wish for the demise of a new carrier that provides a high quality product, while at the same time accepting the growth of regional carriers that take take away the entry level narrow body jobs at the majors and pay significantly less than VA. Republic, Mesa, Skywest, Comair, Expressjet and the entire lot of them have done far more damage to pay and career advancement in this profession than VA could ever have. And they all did it long before VA took to the skies. Yet they all get a near free pass on this board. Well except for Mesa.

PS- According to the San Francisco Business Times, total liquidity in the present quarter is now $129 million (22 cash - 107 credit) compared to $57.6 million in the previous quarter. So even better news. Looks like we will be around a little bit longer.

I think you're a bit biased, and if that blogger says things are looking up for VA, he probably needs his head examined. I'm not sure how anyone can look at the publicly released data that VA has released and not be gravely concerned. He11, I wouldn't trade places with VA (from a financial standpoint), and I work for United!

They have 22M in cash, which is surprising low. I'd love to see what their cash flow looks like (like you can with any other airlines 10Q), but we don't get to see that. We do know that in their 4th quarter (everyone else's JAN-MAR quarter), they had a net loss of 18.8M and for their full year 2009 (ended MAR 31) they lost 80.8M. I don't think it takes a genius to do the math, so I'm not sure how a blogger or anyone else can imply that things are looking up. Perhaps there are investors out there who are willing to infuse a bunch of cash into VA? If that the case and they can find suckers willing to pony up large sums of money, they can bleed money forever

The other comments rationalizing VA's history of extremely poor VA pilot pay/benefits/retirement have been hashed out over and over.

 

[waveflyer]

So scope- outsourcing jobs to regionals was the only and best option to compete with southwest?

 

[ABUSED PILOT]

Look at UAL/USAIR they lost money forever. A new airline is supposed to lose money.That how it works. You write off everthing and hoard money. With the deep pockets they have, and Virgin quality of service. They will be around for quite some time.

 

[MILPILOT17]

Look at UAL/USAIR they lost money forever. A new airline is supposed to lose money.That how it works. You write off everthing and hoard money. With the deep pockets they have, and Virgin quality of service. They will be around for quite some time.

Now that's one hell of a business model! How about making money and "hoarding" money? I knew those college professors were full of Sh!t.

 

[Moon-dog]

No, it's ScopesinRJ's who is full of sh!t. As usual he is full of ignorance and venom, shame Delta pilots decided to vote on a contract that put them into bankruptcy. How do you think his stupid a$$ voted? (assuming he was not drinking from and driving the SST. (Thats the lav truck RJLover, you fool!)

 

[jayme]

I have never really realized how ********************ty you people are. All it really comes down to is that you want me to lose my ability to provide for my family so that you can provide a little extra to yours. ******************** off.

 

[ualdriver]

I have never really realized how ********************ty you people are. All it really comes down to is that you want me to lose my ability to provide for my family so that you can provide a little extra to yours. ******************** off.

Couldn't the same be said about VA pilots? All the rest of us have been trying to do for almost a decade now is maintain what little we have left. We have families too, right? Just when we thought narrowbody wages, benefits, and working conditions couldn't go any lower, we have airlines like Skybus, VA, etc., come along and under cut the prevailing wage more. And what's worse is that it will probably be years before the VA pilots even do anything about it.

 

[waveflyer]

UAL-
VA is a step up from skywest or any regional.
Look in the mirror before you slam them.

As for you Jayme- competition is a mother ********************er- I wish you the best- but when I'm at work- I'm trying to win

 

[NEDude]

Couldn't the same be said about VA pilots? All the rest of us have been trying to do for almost a decade now is maintain what little we have left. We have families too, right? Just when we thought narrowbody wages, benefits, and working conditions couldn't go any lower, we have airlines like Skybus, VA, etc., come along and under cut the prevailing wage more. And what's worse is that it will probably be years before the VA pilots even do anything about it.

That's it, blame the small new guy for all of the problems that started occurring ten years before they even showed up. Skybus was around for what, a year and a half? Had maybe 20 airplanes. VA has been around for less than 3 years and just took delivery of airplane number 30. These two have had nothing to do with the erosion of pilot pay and destruction of career progression that have occurred over the last ten plus years because they weren't even around!! Skybus, VA, JetBlue, Independence Air, Allegiant and any other start-up over the last ten years have not replaced one mainline carrier job. If you want to find those responsible just go look at thousands of CRJs and ERJs flying around in Delta Connection or United Express colors on former mainline routes by pilots being paid $20,000/year. But I guess those do not count because you fly, or flew, for one of them. Better to blame the small new guy who wasn't around when it happened.

 

[ualdriver]

That's it, blame the small new guy for all of the problems that started occurring ten years before they even showed up. Skybus was around for what, a year and a half? Had maybe 20 airplanes. VA has been around for less than 3 years and just took delivery of airplane number 30.

You're right. VA (so far) isn't responsible (that I know of) for anyone else's pay, work rules, etc., going down further. Further, I don't believe the regionals have necessarily driven down wages- they've simply just caused mainline jobs to disappear. Mainline pilots of the 1990's are responsible for that. Find a post where I lay the blame of mainline pay erosion on the regionals. You won't find it.

Now I also believe that even if the mainline pilots of the 1990's had been able to predict the future and somehow know how the regional airline would grow and replace mainline flying, it wouldn't have just delayed the inevitable. During the bankruptcies of the 2000's, airline management would have gotten the regional jets they wanted anyway.

But again, you miss the point. Have you ever heard of the saying "Those that forget history are doomed to repeat the past?". Those of us that lived through the last downward spiral are well aware of the role the LCC's played in that destruction. Wages got dragged down, pensions lost, work rules trashed because mainline pilots couldn't compete with a Jetblue pilot making half what a United pilot was making. And of course, the JetBlue, Frontier, whoever, pilots of the time all told us how they were small, only had "30" airplanes, etc. Then a few years later, they have a 100 airplanes and are massively undercutting us.

So when you wonder why airlines like VA are held in such contempt, why many of us hate having you on our jumpseat, why you read snide remarks about VA on forums such as this, you know why. Many of us already have heard all the excuses before. We already have seen the damage "small" undercutting airlines have done in the past and don't want to be "doomed" to repeat it again, especially when many of us are in contract negotiations and are trying to lift the bar back up, of course with absolutely no help from VA pilots.

So I'll leave the last sentences to the two of you as the words I have typed above are nothing new. I already have read the rationalizations that will follow 10 years ago when they were typed by shiny, new JetBlue, Valujet, and Frontier pilots. I'm done.

 

[NEDude]

You're right. VA (so far) isn't responsible (that I know of) for anyone else's pay, work rules, etc., going down further. Further, I don't believe the regionals have necessarily driven down wages- they've simply just caused mainline jobs to disappear. Mainline pilots of the 1990's are responsible for that. Find a post where I lay the blame of mainline pay erosion on the regionals. You won't find it.

Now I also believe that even if the mainline pilots of the 1990's had been able to predict the future and somehow know how the regional airline would grow and replace mainline flying, it wouldn't have just delayed the inevitable. During the bankruptcies of the 2000's, airline management would have gotten the regional jets they wanted anyway.

But again, you miss the point. Have you ever heard of the saying "Those that forget history are doomed to repeat the past?". Those of us that lived through the last downward spiral are well aware of the role the LCC's played in that destruction. Wages got dragged down, pensions lost, work rules trashed because mainline pilots couldn't compete with a Jetblue pilot making half what a United pilot was making. And of course, the JetBlue, Frontier, whoever, pilots of the time all told us how they were small, only had "30" airplanes, etc. Then a few years later, they have a 100 airplanes and are massively undercutting us.

So when you wonder why airlines like VA are held in such contempt, why many of us hate having you on our jumpseat, why you read snide remarks about VA on forums such as this, you know why. Many of us already have heard all the excuses before. We already have seen the damage "small" undercutting airlines have done in the past and don't want to be "doomed" to repeat it again, especially when many of us are in contract negotiations and are trying to lift the bar back up, of course with absolutely no help from VA pilots.

So I'll leave the last sentences to the two of you as the words I have typed above are nothing new. I already have read the rationalizations that will follow 10 years ago when they were typed by shiny, new JetBlue, Valujet, and Frontier pilots. I'm done.

I am sorry that you have to deal with the reality of a free market. The country we live in encourages start-ups and free enterprise. That means new companies and new ideas.

FYI A five year JetBlue A320 captain makes $145/hr, a ten year A320 captain makes $155. The same rates for a United A320 captain are $128 and $134 respectively. Why are you lowering the bar and complaining that other are doing the same thing? Okay for you but not for others huh?

 

[Mike man]

what happened to the "Move the tread to the correct area" moderator?

 

[Fubijaakr]

FYI A five year JetBlue A320 captain makes $145/hr, a ten year A320 captain makes $155. The same rates for a United A320 captain are $128 and $134 respectively. Why are you lowering the bar and complaining that other are doing the same thing? Okay for you but not for others huh?

FYI, United narrowbody pilots were making over $200 an hour until Mr. Tilton took them Chapter 11, IMPOSED the $129 an hour jetBlue rate and terminated their A plan to match the jetBlue retirement program.

THAT, my friend, is exactly what he means by undercutting.

Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

UAL-
VA is a step up from skywest or any regional.
Look in the mirror before you slam them.

As for you Jayme- competition is a mother ********************er- I wish you the best- but when I'm at work- I'm trying to win

So is buying your job to compete!
Too bad you couldn't have just gone the old fashioned way and gotten on with a company that pays you to show up, and not the other way.

 

[chppr5]

I am sorry that you have to deal with the reality of a free market. The country we live in encourages start-ups and free enterprise. That means new companies and new ideas.

FYI A five year JetBlue A320 captain makes $145/hr, a ten year A320 captain makes $155. The same rates for a United A320 captain are $128 and $134 respectively. Why are you lowering the bar and complaining that other are doing the same thing? Okay for you but not for others huh?

Compare the whole pay package. Add in B and C fund and quality of medical coverage. Now we are at about the same pay package. Then remember that UAL's contract was negotiated with the BK gun to our head. If you and others are happy to to have the same pay package as a bankruptcy contract then we have nothing to look forward to in this industry!

 

[Scope out RJ's]

FYI, United narrowbody pilots were making over $200 an hour until Mr. Tilton took them Chapter 11, IMPOSED the $129 an hour jetBlue rate and terminated their A plan to match the jetBlue retirement program.

THAT, my friend, is exactly what he means by undercutting.

That is exactly what the southwest pilots perfected!

 

[Splert]

I am sorry that you have to deal with the reality of a free market. The country we live in encourages start-ups and free enterprise. That means new companies and new ideas.

FYI A five year JetBlue A320 captain makes $145/hr, a ten year A320 captain makes $155. The same rates for a United A320 captain are $128 and $134 respectively. Why are you lowering the bar and complaining that other are doing the same thing? Okay for you but not for others huh?

Why stop there:

We have a former UAL CA in our Training department.

He is still covered under UAL health plan.

Why?

What is VA health care option for Medically Retired Pilots?

We also have a former NWA guy too.

If a VA pilot is forced to Medically Retire what is the income replacement provided by VA? An application to Walmart or 60% of base pay to age 65 that is not coordinated with other W2 income or 1099's?

Pay values are cool and sh!t but just comparing pay values to pay values misses the other 90% of a pilot group contract v your handshake.

UAL rates and it's other protections are far better than whatever VA is paying you dorks.

 

[Blue Dude]

FYI A five year JetBlue A320 captain makes $145/hr, a ten year A320 captain makes $155. The same rates for a United A320 captain are $128 and $134 respectively. Why are you lowering the bar and complaining that other are doing the same thing? Okay for you but not for others huh?

Speaking as one of those 10 year JetBlue captains, I would gladly trade my pay scale for United's entire contract right now, no questions asked. The pay scale is the least of the issues. We're otherwise naked. I already have to bank the entire raise against a career disaster (and pay taxes on it), so it's not a bargain.

We finally got our scale up to industry average this past year - the new industry average after multiple bankruptcies and pay matches to our *old, old* 1999 rates that you somehow thought acceptable in 2007.

What's so "nice" about our pay rates is that they're supposed to automatically adjust to the industry average every year in lieu of a COLA. That way we kinda sorta get the COLA built into everyone else's pay rates. But what's this? JetBlue would like to include - you guessed it! - Virgin America's rates into the mix this year. Which offsets large gains by Southwest and the COLA's from everyone else. I guess those awesome "average rates" will be reduced by inflation for a while, since we can't expect any more gains as long as you're in the mix. Thanks again.

BTW, fubi, you were right. (That hurt to say.) Our 2001 rates, better than the starter 1999 rates but still low, that were OK for a few years to keep us on our feet after 9/11 turned out to be permanent until we had our first union vote. I don't think too many pilots at JetBlue would give this much slack for this long if we had the chance for a do-over, particularly in regards to the E190 rates. Hey, VA pilots, learn from our experience! You wanted JetBlue-lite, you've got it! Wake up! You're being played!

 

[waveflyer]

If you guys are such pro union socialists, why do such a majority of you vote republican?

These types of posts are why UAL pilots are so universally hated and thought of as arrogant and smug. You take no responsibility for your own situation. YOU didn't stand up to outsourcing. YOU keep showing up for work. Most of YOU vote republican, and by so doing- undercut your unions efforts.
Ualdriver - you didn't say regional pay caused your paycut but I am.
Connect the dots- Virgin pay is substantially better than regional pay. Regionals will never have leverage to get great contracts- bc if they do, they'll be downsized and some other operator will be built up from nothing. (Regionals competing for contracts within a brand, is a much worse thing than a stand alone brand entering a market trying to get a foothold and competing.) Regional pilots get NO vote to how much flying gets sent to them. ALPA pilots do vote- and blame bankruptcies all you want, but it's a bs excuse- you guys were selling out my generation long before the BKs-

Bottom line- you thought you could sell out your junior pilots and that would not come back to haunt you- LCCs pay what it takes to attract qualified pilots to their airlines. Bc of regionals that ALPA pilots negotiated into existence- they have more than enough to draw from the regionals at their rates.

United and delta and all alpa carriers are far more responsible for the state of the industry than anything VA has done.