Virgin America down to 22 million in unrestricted cash

[Bavarian Chef]

You're right. VA (so far) isn't responsible (that I know of) for anyone else's pay, work rules, etc., going down further. Further, I don't believe the regionals have necessarily driven down wages- they've simply just caused mainline jobs to disappear. Mainline pilots of the 1990's are responsible for that. Find a post where I lay the blame of mainline pay erosion on the regionals. You won't find it.

Now I also believe that even if the mainline pilots of the 1990's had been able to predict the future and somehow know how the regional airline would grow and replace mainline flying, it wouldn't have just delayed the inevitable. During the bankruptcies of the 2000's, airline management would have gotten the regional jets they wanted anyway.

But again, you miss the point. Have you ever heard of the saying "Those that forget history are doomed to repeat the past?". Those of us that lived through the last downward spiral are well aware of the role the LCC's played in that destruction. Wages got dragged down, pensions lost, work rules trashed because mainline pilots couldn't compete with a Jetblue pilot making half what a United pilot was making. And of course, the JetBlue, Frontier, whoever, pilots of the time all told us how they were small, only had "30" airplanes, etc. Then a few years later, they have a 100 airplanes and are massively undercutting us.

So when you wonder why airlines like VA are held in such contempt, why many of us hate having you on our jumpseat, why you read snide remarks about VA on forums such as this, you know why. Many of us already have heard all the excuses before. We already have seen the damage "small" undercutting airlines have done in the past and don't want to be "doomed" to repeat it again, especially when many of us are in contract negotiations and are trying to lift the bar back up, of course with absolutely no help from VA pilots.

So I'll leave the last sentences to the two of you as the words I have typed above are nothing new. I already have read the rationalizations that will follow 10 years ago when they were typed by shiny, new JetBlue, Valujet, and Frontier pilots. I'm done.

Excellent post.

Listening to the VA story (and VA pilot defense mechanisms) brings up some indigestion from the same exact JB story 10 years ago.

 

[front9]

hyp·o·crite
Pronunciation: \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritēs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date: 13th century
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
3 : Bavarian Chef
4 : Ualdriver
— hypocrite adjective

 

[waveflyer]

Ualdriver-
actually I DO make the point that regional wages have helped deteriorate mainline wages-it's basic divide and conquer. Follow the trail again- regional pilots have no leverage bc of HOW their market is set up- if one regional gets toostrong, demands too much- it is shrunk and another company is built up to replace it- these regional pilots get no vote or representation among the brands that fly on their tail- they get no vote to how much flying gets outsourced- they are the very definition of disenfranchised-

Now VA is being built (or jBlu) - Rey need pilots- there are thousands of rj captains proficient in jets, glass, fms, and 121 ops. Nothing VA is doing is anything that these rj capts haven't been doing for years-

VA now only needs to pay enough to attract pilots away from regionals. They will fill classes with no problem as long as they pay just enough more than the regionals that mainline pilots created and allowed. And if you're a more qualified furloughee or layed off from a bk carrier- you have to take the wage bc VA and you know that there are plenty of rj capts for whom VA actually IS a real step up.

Now VA wages help drive down wages at mainline and it all comes full circle.

Scope relief is an insidious bastard.

 

[mvedepo]

I don't think you guys realize that our classes are not filled with RJ drivers. There are a few yes, but our most recent classes have been predominately Midwest, ATA, and Aloha. Competitive time right now is around 12,000 - 14,000 hours. So don't think that people are coming here to fly "the big jets."

 

[thruthemurk]

I don't think you guys realize that our classes are not filled with RJ drivers. There are a few yes, but our most recent classes have been predominately Midwest, ATA, and Aloha. Competitive time right now is around 12,000 - 14,000 hours. So don't think that people are coming here to fly "the big jets."

All of whom made more at their old jobs. They arent coming to VA for the awesome opportunity. How bout 3 years ago?

 

[mvedepo]

"Awesome opportunity" is a relative term. Yes they were making more at their last carrier. But every single one that I know here is happy as hell to be here and thankful that this "awesome opportunity" was available to them.

As for 3 years ago we were hiring mostly USAir, JetBlue, USA3000, etc. They weren't loading up in regional guys. They were looking for guys with good experience due to the fast upgrade.

And besides, what wrong with RJ guys? Last I checked the elitist "legacy" carriers filled their new hire classes predominately with "lowly" RJ pilots. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander right?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

hyp·o·crite
Pronunciation: \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritēs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date: 13th century
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
3 : Bavarian Chef
4 : Ualdriver
— hypocrite adjective

In your eyes. But I didn't come here ten years ago (more like 5). I am willing to admit what JB pilots have done (and continue to do) to the industry. Always have on this board.

But instead of quitting, or go somewhere else, I voted last year, and will vote again.

We are taking it back (or were).

Don't get all emotional about an anonymous internet post, Sally.

 

[jetbluedog]

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_02/b4210064436433.htm

VA is going to flop in 2011 - that's my prediction with BO still in office.

"If something happens—and something always seems to happen in this industry, whether it's fuel prices or war or SARS—they're in trouble."

 

[ATRCA]

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_02/b4210064436433.htm

VA is going to flop in 2011 - that's my prediction with BO still in office.

"If something happens—and something always seems to happen in this industry, whether it's fuel prices or war or SARS—they're in trouble."

Wow, nice job. You resurrected an old thread that postulated the looming demise of VA....................except that VA is still operating business as usual. What's the point again?

Oh, that's right. The point is that VA is "nearing it's end" just like B6 has been for what??? close to a decade now??

NEWS FLASH!! We're all going out of business, some just faster than others!

Nothing to see here........

 

[Ex737Driver]

Wow, nice job. You resurrected an old thread that postulated the looming demise of VA....................except that VA is still operating business as usual. What's the point again?

Oh, that's right. The point is that VA is "nearing it's end" just like B6 has been for what??? close to a decade now??

NEWS FLASH!! We're all going out of business, some just faster than others!

Nothing to see here........

Exactly............If I had a nickel for every CEO that said we were going to turn a profit this year..........

 

[jonjuan]

Wow, nice job. You resurrected an old thread that postulated the looming demise of VA....................except that VA is still operating business as usual. What's the point again?

Oh, that's right. The point is that VA is "nearing it's end" just like B6 has been for what??? close to a decade now??

NEWS FLASH!! We're all going out of business, some just faster than others!

Nothing to see here........

Agreed, there most likely will be nothing to see here very soon. Despite your rant, VX is nothing like B6. Completely different environment. Have you even read the article or just like to call everyone haters if they agree the company may not, gasp, make it? They have very little pricing power, very little cash flow, very little cash available, a ton of debt, and very impatient investors. Take a look at their fares. NY-SFO/LAX markets are $130 each way. DFW the same. Yes, the cabin experience is good and FAs nice to look at, but the majors, southwest, etc. also have WiFi plus a much, much better frequent flyer program with the ability to fly anywhere in the world, which is what most high revenue pax like.

 

[ATRCA]

Agreed, there most likely will be nothing to see here very soon. Despite your rant, VX is nothing like B6. Completely different environment. Have you even read the article or just like to call everyone haters if they agree the company may not, gasp, make it? They have very little pricing power, very little cash flow, very little cash available, a ton of debt, and very impatient investors. Take a look at their fares. NY-SFO/LAX markets are $130 each way. DFW the same. Yes, the cabin experience is good and FAs nice to look at, but the majors, southwest, etc. also have WiFi plus a much, much better frequent flyer program with the ability to fly anywhere in the world, which is what most high revenue pax like.

Whatever dude, have it your way. It matters little to me. I did read the article. I also read articles that assured the solvency of Bear Stearns.

If VA ceases to operate you'll have your day while the rest of us continue working for our pink slips. Today's dominant airline is next decades carcass. I have no idea what will happen to VA, I just know that you don't either.

UAL's been going broke for 10 years. There are 3 dozen threads on this board alone with calendars marking the date.....yet here they are, profitable no less (if you believe that).

I'm not cheerleading for the demise of anyone at this point. What goes around DOES come around in this industry.

 

[jonjuan]

Whatever dude, have it your way. It matters little to me. I did read the article. I also read articles that assured the solvency of Bear Stearns.

If VA ceases to operate you'll have your day while the rest of us continue working for our pink slips. Today's dominant airline is next decades carcass. I have no idea what will happen to VA, I just know that you don't either.

UAL's been going broke for 10 years. There are 3 dozen threads on this board alone with calendars marking the date.....yet here they are, profitable no less (if you believe that).

I'm not cheerleading for the demise of anyone at this point. What goes around DOES come around in this industry.

Man, you're like the little engine that could. Try taking some emotion out of your IMC world.

 

[ATRCA]

Man, you're like the little engine that could. Try taking some emotion out of your IMC world.

"IMC World" What's that? Is that some CFII message board where you tell the chic's about your 73 type? I must have missed it, do tell.

And yes, I'm arguing pointlessly with you for entertainment. Thread drift and mudslinging is the goal here.....

 

[Tomct]

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_02/b4210064436433.htm

VA is going to flop in 2011 - that's my prediction with BO still in office.

"If something happens—and something always seems to happen in this industry, whether it's fuel prices or war or SARS—they're in trouble."

Well, I bet 100 to 1 that we are STILL here and getting bigger by the month! But hey, keep those well wishes coming, I mean, now that VA is here, there is no more mud-slinging at JB. Pretty Pathetic! Hope you have a Happy New Year too there buddy. Ya Deuche!!

 

[C601]

Wow, nice job. You resurrected an old thread that postulated the looming demise of VA....................except that VA is still operating business as usual. What's the point again?

Oh, that's right. The point is that VA is "nearing it's end" just like B6 has been for what??? close to a decade now??

NEWS FLASH!! We're all going out of business, some just faster than others!

Nothing to see here........

Nothing like another fellow pilot bashing a similar airline, and predicting they will be out of business... tbh having this guy "fly" for JB is an embarrassment to other JB pilots.

Don't work for either airline, but would never wish for another pilot to be out of a job.

 

[PsubS]

Ditto. I fly for the Blue and I'm not wishing any trouble on anybody.

We aren't all ******************************bags.

 

[OurMoney1]

I dont wanna see anybody lose their jobs. However we all know there exists capacity issues in our networks. The weak must die off so the others can live. Point Blank...

 

[jonjuan]

I dont wanna see anybody lose their jobs. However we all know there exists capacity issues in our networks. The weak must die off so the others can live. Point Blank...

Yep-if they can live while paying industry standard wages and aren't artifically propped up and can compete with profitable fares without dumping $139 coast-coast-capacity, then great. It's a free country, however. Funny how people bash the regionals for replacing major airline flying and yet, some here don't see the similarities here. How is this venture any different than Skybus or Mesa? If the upgrade there was 10 years, they wouldn't see a soul applying.

 

[xjhawk]

I have never really realized how ********************ty you people are. All it really comes down to is that you want me to lose my ability to provide for my family so that you can provide a little extra to yours. ******************** off.

I can agree with you on this statement. I see some of my fellow pilots who say they would like so and so to fail so they can fly their routes and their planes. Then they are the first to complain when they get laid off. remember that rule you learned in first grade. Treat others how you would like to be treated. I like the Virgin GROUPS corporate attitude and can see that no virgin company has ever failed. Do I want to see non american ownership of our domestic airlines-no. But what is a public company? Can foreign nationals buy stock? Do you trust the american leadership who ran US Airways or United into the ground? I would trust branson more than tilten a guy like that. I knew some guys in the UK who all loved their jobs and they all worked for the Virgin group. I see that same corp culture in Virgin America. I would buy stock in Virgin and I would work there-but I would like to see better pay there. I have my resume in there, it would be better to work there than any regional. I just wish I would get a call to come interview but my over 5k total hours and greater than 1000 hours PIC jet must not be enough. Are there any former mesaba guys there who can open a door for me?