USAPA wins appeal!!!!!!

[doh]

Wasn't there something in the ruling that says the court isn't specifically ruling on the NIC. Doesn't that mean that they aren't saying the NIC is dead?

 

[Crzipilot]

In a nutshell, They said they weren't ruling on the nic. They were ruling though that DFR is not ripe until something happens. And nothing happens until a CBA is voted in, with a seniority integration. And depending on what that integration in, whenever it's voted in, is when one will be able to tell if there is a violation of DFR, and not until then. Some other tidbits about the nic being vacated by USAPA as easily as ALPA could have vacated it, which was an internal union policy.......

 

[Turtle21]

Wasn't there something in the ruling that says the court isn't specifically ruling on the NIC. Doesn't that mean that they aren't saying the NIC is dead?

The suit (and thus the injunction requiring the use of the Nic) was dismissed.

 

[Groucho]

Are you serious? Your C and R are irrellevant. Only a seniority number protects from furlough.
Well gosh golly we've got it all settled then.

Maybe you didn't read the part I wrote about the process being fair. I can tell my reps all I like and they can tell the NAC all they like but we all know the East will utilize their tyranny of the majority to outvote us. You will cram down whatever you like and you won't care if we like it or not. The APA at least admitted as much when they did it to the TWAers. Why can't you?

From the famous Rufus T. Firefly, leader of Freedonia and expert lawyer:

Rufus T. Firefly: Gentlemen, a west pilot here may talk like an idiot, and look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: he really is an idiot. I implore you, send him back to his father and brothers, who are waiting for him with open arms in the penitentiary. I suggest that we give him ten years in Leavenworth, or eleven years in Twelveworth.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0555597/ I'll tell you what I'll do: I'll take five and ten in Woolworth.

 

[TWA Dude]

You statement of, an arbitrator is the best method. We've seen how those have turned out over the years, lets try something new?!??!

I'm open to suggestions, however, I can't envision you coming up with something more fair than a neutral third-party.

Well because YOU don't think it's fair. obviously it's not....

Like yours, my opinion doesn't matter. I know I'm restating the obvious but you give me no choice: arbitration solves the problem of two groups that can't come to an agreement. Your "solution" of having the majority impose its will on the minority is not democracy, it's rape.

Now can you tell me in YOUR own words, what standard of DFR is a union held to????

That is determined on a case-by-case basis by the courts.

Is it simply if a minority portion of it's membership is unhappy, and doesn't get what they want, is the union subject to DFR claims?

No. From your earlier quote: "A breach of the statutory duty of fair representation occurs only when a union's conduct toward a member of the collective bargaining unit is arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith." In the opinions of Judge Wake, a jury, and Judge Bybee USAPA's actions against the West were definitely discriminatory and in bad faith.

Like I said last night. The sooner you come to terms with the events yesterday, The sooner you will be at peace.....

I know you want us to give up but you won't be so lucky.

 

[Carl S.]

Wow, the junior E-190 F/O's must all be home the last two days with all these pro-USAPA posting. Enjoy the victory you believe you have won. Just like a death row inmate enjoying his stay of execution on a technical matter. The Attington Case was never about the Nic. and the company has never moved off accepting the Nic. as the joint list to be used once a CBA is approved.
The ball is back in USAPA's court once the mandate hits Wake's court room barring an En Blanc request. USAPA will no doubt go forward with a request for DOH, but does the company dare to test the legal waters of a DFR so soon? AOL had to test the waters for a DFR or risk a statue of limitations. A few said wait till more damages before going for the DFR but the statue of limitations spooked AOL to move so fast. I think we all know how well the next case will go if USAPA goes with DOH and as a bonus we get little Stevie B. to show up.

P.S.- nice East A330 hit on a West A321 today in CLT taking the runway intersection, don't you senior international block holding wide body transatlantic veterans go over wing spans in ground school?

 

[becket]

The suit (and thus the injunction requiring the use of the Nic) was dismissed.

With the very specific instructions that if USAPA were to actually ratify the list they would have themselves..."an unquestionable DFR suit".

Meaning that USAPA is free to ignore common sense, hope the company is dumb enough to go along with it, and ratify a doh list. Which the 9th clearly indicated that they're F'ed if they get that accomplished.

Nothing changed here. USAPA is still trying how to Eff a porcupine...can't be done.

 

[Flybywire44]

Great news for the majority.

 

[Turtle21]

With the very specific instructions that if USAPA were to actually ratify the list they would have themselves..."an unquestionable DFR suit".

Meaning that USAPA is free to ignore common sense, hope the company is dumb enough to go along with it, and ratify a doh list. Which the 9th clearly indicated that they're F'ed if they get that accomplished.

Nothing changed here. USAPA is still trying how to Eff a porcupine...can't be done.

The court didn't say they would be guilty once a DFR suit would be ripe, and in fact the court clearly envisioned circumstances in which the union can abandon the Nic and be well within the bounds of "reasonable". The court clearly did not view internal ALPA policies as the standard and there is no reason for USAPA to fear following its own policies that are even more protective of its members than all he other unions on property were of their members.

Nothing new until after a vote. A vote?! Eeeek... Rez and PCL are in knots.

XXOO:blush:

 

[SWA/FO]

What a SORRY bunch, Eastholes.... I feel bad for the America West dudes.

 

[becket]

The court didn't say they would be guilty once a DFR suit would be ripe, and in fact the court clearly envisioned circumstances in which the union can abandon the Nic and be well within the bounds of "reasonable". The court clearly did not view internal ALPA policies as the standard and there is no reason for USAPA to fear following its own policies that are even more protective of its members than all he other unions on property were of their members.

Nothing new until after a vote. A vote?! Eeeek... Rez and PCL are in knots.

XXOO:blush:

They said USAPA was as free as ALPA was to abandon the Nic. If ALPA had ANY ability to abandon the nic they sure as hell would have done it. The 9th said if USAPA had ratified a DOH contract, then the DFR is "unquestionable".

That's back to square 1. USAPA still has the litigation gun aimed squarely at their head. Nothing changed except an unknown number of years of more uncertainty all the while every other airline is making significant contractual gains, and the US Air pilots are being left farther and farther behind with no end in sight. A believe that if USAPA hadn't forcibly stripped all representation from West pilots, a settlement could have been worked out by now.

Too bad. No one to negotiate with and the West is still never going to accept Cleary et. al. dictating the terms of their existence to them. Let's not forget about the Company that was legally bound to accept the nic, which they did. The TA is still the governing doc. and the seniority integration methodology has not changed. The Company was never dismissed from any legal action. They can't hide forever claiming ignorance.

I know USAPA is elated and they read this as being given Carte Blanche to do whatever they want. The simple fact of the matter is they got off on a technicality. There was never any doubt of their intention or willingness to screw the west. They pulled the pin on the grenade, have assured the world with certainty that they're going to throw it, they just haven't been able to release it yet even though they actually tried to.

The second they do, the litigation is going to be fast tracked all over again except this time all the work is completed, paid for, and the outcome will be crystal clear as it has been spelled out by the district court and now the 9th. USAPA will never deliver a contract to their pilot group. At least not until another merger.

 

[Turtle21]

...The 9th said if USAPA had ratified a DOH contract, then the DFR is "unquestionable".
....

No. The court said once a contract is ratified THEN a claim of DFR could unquestionably be allowed into court for a trial. Not before. There is no conclusion that any USAPA action would be guilty or innocent. But if you read the 9th carefully you will see that they fully intend that Nic is set aside and that USAPA negotiate a workable solution that will move things forward.

You are misreading a footnote to Discussion Point #7 on page 8007.

IF you were to read the context, you would clearly see that the court is of the opinion that Nic will never pass, and that if Wake's injunction forcing Nic were allowed to stand, then the the plaintiff would be harmed indefinitely because the internal seniority dispute would never be resolved. Therefore, the 9th leaves USAPA free to do what is necessary to negotiate a workable solution that will pass, with the knowledge that what they do get passed will THEN be subject to a court case that won't be dismissed.

The Nic is dead, bro. The 9th sees that Nic is the cause of the impasse and gives USAPA the freedom to fix the seniority issue.

 

[Crzipilot]

Yes, the crew room lawyers and putting words into the 9th decision.

Turtle's explanation is pretty much right on, from the decision itself.


Does it give USAPA Carte Blance????? Of course not.

Do I think USAPA can or should ignore the plight of the west? NO.....

Do I think the west needs to lose their idea of the NIC ever being used. Yes....

Do I think an arbitrator is the end all be all of settling disputes. NO.....from the decisions and briefs that have come out the past few years. It's pretty obvious they are a tool to use, to get a decision made, but you usually lose alot of the nuances that go into the details of what we work under.

Personally I think usapa and the west, needs to move forward. Have the west reps come up with 4-5 guys to represent their interests. Sit down at a table and hash something out. Can it be done? Absolutely. If level headedness prevails, but that's the kicker. Both sides need to come down off their perches.

 

[Carl S.]

So the TA and the company accepting the NIC. just goes right out the window because USAPA has not DFR'd the West yet? USAPA is free to breech their contractual obligation like a home owner walking away from their mortgage, but you will have legal litigation to respond to. The company is like the bank and does not want to be part of this mess, but will eventually have to act if the 9th sends the mandate to Wake to dismiss and USAPA goes DOH per their CBL's.

P.S.- any updates on the A330 damage from yesterday's hit and run in CLT?

 

[PCL_128]

Nothing new until after a vote. A vote?! Eeeek... Rez and PCL are in knots.

In knots? Hardly. I think the most likely scenario is that you'll never get a new contract with a new proposed SLI, because Parker is going to sell Airways off in pieces to the highest bidders. It's just a shame that the West will suffer along with you.