USAPA wins appeal!!!!!!

[Crzipilot]

You don't seem to understand how USAPA's DFR applies to the former AWA pilots. Seham apparently doesn't either. Oh well, see you in court.

Well now I believe you asked if I understood what DFR is. As a matter of fact I do. It's basically the duty of the union to represent it's membership fairly and equal.

Now you added the part of how USAPA's (alleged and subsequently thrown out of court DFR) Applies to former AWA pilots.

This I would love to hear how you figure former AWA have been subject to non DFR by USAPA????!?!?!?

 

[Crzipilot]

In addtion:

Actually, the 9th acknowledged the union's duty to fairly represent the pilots.

The Nic was an internal union attempt that failed as is. The court acknowledged that ALPA was free to abandon Nic and that USAPA is equally free. The duty to fairly represent remains, but is not embodied in an ALPA policy or process. It is clear that any future possible court case on a USAPA breach of DFR will not be held to the standards of ALPA policies. ALPA, USAPA, or any other union's compliance with their Duty of Fair Representation is judged by standards superior to their own or other union policies.

 

[Crzipilot]

We could've had a new contract in 2007 when the economy was good and the company profitable.

Which would have also negated the possibility of us winning our LOA93 grievance, bringing our pay higher than what would have been negotiated in '07........ It would have been a nice raise for you guys, but a self imposed pay cut for us....

 

[TWA Dude]

It's basically the duty of the union to represent it's membership fairly and equal.

Good, then we're in agreement. As long as USAPA lives up to that we'll all save a lot of money on legal fees.

You'd asked me how I'd integrate lists and I told you. You think an organization dominated by the East will be more unbiased than an arbitrator?

 

[Turtle21]

Good, then we're in agreement. As long as USAPA lives up to that we'll all save a lot of money on legal fees.

You'd asked me how I'd integrate lists and I told you. You think an organization dominated by the East will be more unbiased than an arbitrator?

We are one happy family now. We discuss things with the leaders who are crafting the next CBA in negotiations with the company, the leaders put out a vote, and we all go thumbs up or down.

Tell your union what you want to see in the CBA they are working on.

 

[Crzipilot]

Sure we agree. And hopefully USAPA comes up with an integration that PROTECTS both sides. The nic obviously did not do this.

suspicious of what usapa may bring, but until you guys stop looking at those broken crystal balls, and wait to see what actually happens, you'll never know.

 

[BeCareful!]

Perhaps if USAPA utilizes the flawed Nic list, East pilots will sue them for DFR.

 

[Turtle21]

Perhaps if USAPA utilizes the flawed Nic list, East pilots will sue them for DFR.

Won't need to. It will be voted down.

 

[BeCareful!]

Also, how well versed on the C&R's are you guys? I haven't looked at them in a while, but I remember being impressed with how many situations they covered to protect west pilots from east invasion of their bases...well, base....while allowing movement as positions open up. I know that a hell of a lot of work went into making sure everyone's interests were considered, within the frame work of when you were hired.

And that's a great thing, IMO. I've never wanted to see anyone screwed by this or any other merger. Flow through, too; I've always been a believer that any flow through should be a good deal for both sides. ALPA AAA was always trying to skew it so the WO's got slammed, which is reason 157 why ALPA is gone, those f&^%ers.
Anyway, trying to represent everyone is challenging, and that's why those C&R's are somewhat complicated.

Last guy I flew with said he was on a west JS and the crew actually agreed with him that in many cases, like wanting to retain a PHX base, you guys were better off with the C&R's than with Nic.

 

[Groucho]

From the law offices of Flywheel Shyster and Flywheel.
Waldorf T. Flywheel - Sr. Partner



Phone rings: Miss Dimple answers- Flywheel , Shyster and Flywheel….Mr. Flywheel? Just a second; I’ll call him. (Calling out) - Mr. Flywheel! There’s a man on the phone. He says he found the book you lost.

Flywheel: Give me the phone, I’ll talk to him. Hello…..Yes this Mr. Flywheel……so you found my book eh?..... Oh, you needn’t bother about bringing it over. You can read it to me over the phone. Start a page 150. That’s where I left off…….Hello! .. Hello! Hmmm (Sneers) He hung up on me. After I go to the trouble of putting aside legal business just to talk to him!

Miss Dimple: Legal business? Why Mr. Flywheel, you were doing a crossword puzzle.

Mr. Flywheel: Well, is doing a crossword puzzle illegal? Say, has that assistant of mine, Ravelli, been in this morning?

Miss Dimple: No sir

Mr. Flywheel: Well when he gets here have him go down to the Post Office and mail this letter.

Miss Dimple: But sir, It hasn’t’ got a stamp on it.

Mr. Flywheel: Well tell him to put it in the mailbox when nobody is looking.

Miss Dimple: But Mr. Flywheel, a stamp only costs 47cents.

Mr. Flywheel: For 47 cents, I’ll deliver it myself.

Miss Dimple: Anyway this letter is too heavy we had better put two stamps on it.

Mr. Flywheel: Nonsense, if we put two stamps on it will be heavier still. On second thought , never mind the letter. It’s just a little invoice to my friends at Leonidas asking for $1.821 million dollars. When we last sent them an invoice like this they came down to the Office to complain. I told them in no uncertain terms they had to pay up. They got mad; all in a huff. I told them to calm down and not leave in a huff. They could stay for a minute and if they were still mad then they could leave in a minute and a huff. If that wasn’t quick enough they could leave in a cab.

The Leonidas guys have been pestering me about doing something about this bill. I suggested they just pay it. I have been very philosophical with them… trying to get them to see things in a different light…

…. A man's only as old as the woman he feels.
…..Anyone who says he can see through women is missing a lot.
… I intend to live forever, or die trying.
… Behind every successful man is a woman, behind her is his wife.
…..Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?
… These are my principles, if you don’t like them, I have others.
…..My favorite poem is the one that starts 'Thirty days hath September' because it actually tells you something.

I don’t think these guys respond well the philosophical, we haven’t been paid in full yet,.

Here is the invoice, and it goes back to September of 2009. Who knows how big it is now.

Leonidas LLC
Attn: Jeffrey Koontz
2650 FM 407, Ste. 145-147
Bartonville, TX 76226

September 3, 2009
Invoice No: ******
File No: LEO020-324277
Re: Leonidas LLC vs. Airline Pilots, et al.


Invoice Summary
Current Professional Services $1,678,300.50
Current Disbursements 142,929.37

Total Current Invoice $1,821,229.87


Questions regarding payments or accounts, please call (816) 572-4664
or 1-877-577-7455 or [email protected].
For other inquiries, please contact Marty Harper at (602)650-2000
or [email protected].

Please make checks payable to
Polsinelli Shughart PC
P.O. Box 878681
Kansas City, MO 64187-8681
Wire Instructions:
US Bank
Acct: Polsinelli Shughart, PC
Acct #: 4343953230
ABA #: 101000187
Please reference Invoice No.

 

[Turtle21]

...
Re: Leonidas LLC vs. Airline Pilots, et al.


Invoice Summary
Current Professional Services $1,678,300.50
Current Disbursements 142,929.37

Total Current Invoice $1,821,229.87

Please make checks payable to
Polsinelli Shughart PC
...
Please reference Invoice No.

Ouch.

I just sent a $5 dollar donation in honor of Rez and PCL. Sortof an olive branch in honor of ALPA John, et al.

XXOO:blush:

 

[TWA Dude]

Also, how well versed on the C&R's are you guys?

Are you serious? Your C and R are irrellevant. Only a seniority number protects from furlough.

Last guy I flew with said he was on a west JS and the crew actually agreed with him that in many cases, like wanting to retain a PHX base, you guys were better off with the C&R's than with Nic.

Well gosh golly we've got it all settled then.

Maybe you didn't read the part I wrote about the process being fair. I can tell my reps all I like and they can tell the NAC all they like but we all know the East will utilize their tyranny of the majority to outvote us. You will cram down whatever you like and you won't care if we like it or not. The APA at least admitted as much when they did it to the TWAers. Why can't you?

 

[Crzipilot]

Well just because one person doesn't get HIS way, I guess everyone is guilty of DFR. That's pretty much the attitude I'm starting to see. The courts say, you guys were early and possibly wrong. That USAPA is just as able as ALPA was to vacate the NIC award, which I believe ALPA was very much able to, but refused. It doesn't matter WHY they refused, but they did. Spineless individuals, unwilling to do what was right, to move things along.

I do believe at times, USAPA as asked for input from MIGS on the west side (oh that's right, you guys refuse to participate) and have been given no notion. So without your input, how do you expect us to know what you think is fair????

You statement of, an arbitrator is the best method. We've seen how those have turned out over the years, lets try something new?!??! Not to many chances here to figure it out.....

 

[Crzipilot]

Maybe you didn't read the part I wrote about the process being fair. I can tell my reps all I like and they can tell the NAC all they like but we all know the

Well because YOU don't think it's fair. obviously it's not....

Now can you tell me in YOUR own words, what standard of DFR is a union held to????

Is it simply if a minority portion of it's membership is unhappy, and doesn't get what they want, is the union subject to DFR claims? I mean, we can nail it down, that if not every single soul is happy with the outcome of a CBA, the union is liable for DFR........lets get realistic.....

Like I said last night. The sooner you come to terms with the events yesterday, The sooner you will be at peace.....

 

[MCDU]

Crzipilot, you did a great job putting down the facts. Bravo. Sooner or later, westies will understand that DOH will work out in their favor. Greed is just a bad disease that started with the PFT crowd in 90's. Trying to jump ahead of someone with 17 years of service is just wrong. I really feel bad for the MidEX pilots that are now getting screwed and ALPA no where in sight to protect their jobs from the Republic scum that has taken too many jobs from long time higher paid pilots.

M

 

[doh]

Wasn't there something in the ruling that says the court isn't specifically ruling on the NIC. Doesn't that mean that they aren't saying the NIC is dead?

 

[Crzipilot]

In a nutshell, They said they weren't ruling on the nic. They were ruling though that DFR is not ripe until something happens. And nothing happens until a CBA is voted in, with a seniority integration. And depending on what that integration in, whenever it's voted in, is when one will be able to tell if there is a violation of DFR, and not until then. Some other tidbits about the nic being vacated by USAPA as easily as ALPA could have vacated it, which was an internal union policy.......

 

[Turtle21]

Wasn't there something in the ruling that says the court isn't specifically ruling on the NIC. Doesn't that mean that they aren't saying the NIC is dead?

The suit (and thus the injunction requiring the use of the Nic) was dismissed.

 

[Groucho]

Are you serious? Your C and R are irrellevant. Only a seniority number protects from furlough.
Well gosh golly we've got it all settled then.

Maybe you didn't read the part I wrote about the process being fair. I can tell my reps all I like and they can tell the NAC all they like but we all know the East will utilize their tyranny of the majority to outvote us. You will cram down whatever you like and you won't care if we like it or not. The APA at least admitted as much when they did it to the TWAers. Why can't you?

From the famous Rufus T. Firefly, leader of Freedonia and expert lawyer:

Rufus T. Firefly: Gentlemen, a west pilot here may talk like an idiot, and look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: he really is an idiot. I implore you, send him back to his father and brothers, who are waiting for him with open arms in the penitentiary. I suggest that we give him ten years in Leavenworth, or eleven years in Twelveworth.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0555597/ I'll tell you what I'll do: I'll take five and ten in Woolworth.

 

[TWA Dude]

You statement of, an arbitrator is the best method. We've seen how those have turned out over the years, lets try something new?!??!

I'm open to suggestions, however, I can't envision you coming up with something more fair than a neutral third-party.

Well because YOU don't think it's fair. obviously it's not....

Like yours, my opinion doesn't matter. I know I'm restating the obvious but you give me no choice: arbitration solves the problem of two groups that can't come to an agreement. Your "solution" of having the majority impose its will on the minority is not democracy, it's rape.

Now can you tell me in YOUR own words, what standard of DFR is a union held to????

That is determined on a case-by-case basis by the courts.

Is it simply if a minority portion of it's membership is unhappy, and doesn't get what they want, is the union subject to DFR claims?

No. From your earlier quote: "A breach of the statutory duty of fair representation occurs only when a union's conduct toward a member of the collective bargaining unit is arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith." In the opinions of Judge Wake, a jury, and Judge Bybee USAPA's actions against the West were definitely discriminatory and in bad faith.

Like I said last night. The sooner you come to terms with the events yesterday, The sooner you will be at peace.....

I know you want us to give up but you won't be so lucky.