Usapa lost!!!!!!!!!

[Metrojet]

You are correct, this wording comes from the plaintiff's attorney. I very much doubt that the judge will take away the right to vote on a CBA, but that is a different animal than implementing Nicolau.

It would not surprise me to see the court order Nicolau implemented until such time as there is a joint CBA.

USAPA's has been found guilty by a jury of failing to fairly represent the west pilots. USAPA's bad faith attempt to by-pass a seniority list which is the product of a mutually agreed upon final and binding process has been exposed.

At the end of the day the Nicolau award is the only legally recognized joint list, it can not be negotiated away to give the majority east an advantage over the minority west.

USAPA's scheme to by-pass a final and binding seniority list will never survive legal challenge. Like it or not, Nicolau is the seniority list and it will ultimately be implemented, with or without a joint CBA.

FDJ2 -

I understand your point - I just question when you say the "Nic" will ultimately be implemented, (in the current form) with or without a joint CBA? From my understanding - in order for us to combine flight operations as defined in the Transition Agreement - we must have and approve a joint CBA? Without a joint CBA - we remain separate operations.

On another point - and I do not mean to inflame - as it relates to the term "final and binding" - have you ever heard of a criminal decision being overturned when evidence surfaces to prove that the original conviction is wrong (DNA etc). Without a fence to protect what each group brought to the merger of the corporations - The Nic in its current form doesn't address the east "attrition" or the west being invaded by the 517. Judge Wake did not allow the jury to hear any testimony about DOH with conditions and restrictions. Would an Appeal Judge allow this? I do not know for sure - but I do know this is costing US (East & West) a lot of money in legal fees and lost dollars in pay if we had a joint contract. That is why I say at this time it is critical for both sides to negotiate rather than litigate.

Metrojet

 

[denny]

Metrojet,

The issue of a problem with the Nic list has already been addressed. As part of the process an investigation was launched to see if there was any fraud or misapplication of policy in the conception of the arbitrated list. No problems were found and the process went on to the next step - court intervention.

Since there were numerous steps in the process most people do not realize that by the time the issue gets to the federal courts the issue of seniority is no longer the issue. The issue was whether USAPA intended and acted to avoid implementing the list. The court found them guilty of that. The original Nic list did have fences and conditions which have long since expired. Over the last two years USAPA has acted in a concerted manner to avoid the arbitrated list. The court can force implementation of the arbitrated list now or the court can tie it to any negotiated agreement. The Nic list will be part of the next contract no matter what. The contract will most certainly be up for a vote by the membership but not the seniority list since the union already has abided by the process to make up the list.

 

[flybywire]

The contract will most certainly be up for a vote by the membership

Are all pilots on the west in good standing with the union? Is that not a company policy at this time? If a contract comes up for a vote how do they expect to vote?

 

[Captzaahlie]

This is absolutely nothing compared to what is coming down the road. AWA pilots are dreaming of their windfall and have absolutely no concept of the powder keg that is set to go off.

Do you really think you are going to ride into town and steal our jobs? Good luck - you are going to need it.

Flyunder

Man! I'm even shaken over this (threat?) while on furlough.....

Hold on a second I want to just make sure I bolted the front door tonight......

(sarcasm implied ~ because I know you just wouldn't get it unless I spelled it out for you, ****************************** bag)

 

[denny]

Flybywire,

Union membership is entirely up the individual. The company has no say in the matter. Now that the seniority issue is resolved many west pilots are now becoming members so they can vote.

Flyunder,

I understand your frustration but it is not of the west's making. It is the policy that both groups are bound to. If there is a powder keg coming I'll be more than entertained watching!

 

[Thebadcat1313]

FDJ2 -

I understand your point - I just question when you say the "Nic" will ultimately be implemented, (in the current form) with or without a joint CBA? From my understanding - in order for us to combine flight operations as defined in the Transition Agreement - we must have and approve a joint CBA? Without a joint CBA - we remain separate operations.

On another point - and I do not mean to inflame - as it relates to the term "final and binding" - have you ever heard of a criminal decision being overturned when evidence surfaces to prove that the original conviction is wrong (DNA etc). Without a fence to protect what each group brought to the merger of the corporations - The Nic in its current form doesn't address the east "attrition" or the west being invaded by the 517. Judge Wake did not allow the jury to hear any testimony about DOH with conditions and restrictions. Would an Appeal Judge allow this? I do not know for sure - but I do know this is costing US (East & West) a lot of money in legal fees and lost dollars in pay if we had a joint contract. That is why I say at this time it is critical for both sides to negotiate rather than litigate.

Metrojet

Are you kidding? Judge Wake and the jury heard hours and hours of testimony about DOH with conditions and restrictions. They heard about it ad nauseum. They were not impressed.

 

[Prog 2/2]

On another point - and I do not mean to inflame - as it relates to the term "final and binding" - have you ever heard of a criminal decision being overturned when evidence surfaces to prove that the original conviction is wrong (DNA etc). Without a fence to protect what each group brought to the merger of the corporations - The Nic in its current form doesn't address the east "attrition" or the west being invaded by the 517. Judge Wake did not allow the jury to hear any testimony about DOH with conditions and restrictions. Would an Appeal Judge allow this?

You guys really aren't getting this, are you?

The Nicolau list was the end result of a vetted, agreed upon process within the famework of ALPA merger policy.

It's the combined list. Period. That part of the story is over.

The Addington trial was not about the combined list, how it was arrived at, or whether it conformed to what you believe was "fair and equitable". That was all taken care of in the process that resulted in the Nicolau Award and absent any proof of fraud or malfeasance, the award will stand.

The jury disregarded the testimony about "DOH" because that was not the question before the court, and it will not be the focus of any appelate review. The validity of the list is not at issue as a matter of law.

USAPA was found in federal court to have breached their duty of fair representation to the plaintiffs because they attempted to circumvent the results of the agreed to arbitration process in a matter that was injurious to the west.

at this time it is critical for both sides to negotiate rather than litigate.
Metrojet

Nope.

That time was 2 years ago.

We negotiated.

We mediated.

We arbitrated.

Now the only avenue left open to us to get you to abide by your agreements is thru the courts.

 

[vetrider]

I can't believe the dipstick easties that think the appeals court will let them show more of their bull******************** data. I think they've gotten brain damage from beating their heads againts the wall so many times.

 

[flybywire]

Denny
You are correct that it is up to each individual person if they are a member. What I was trying to remember was the term closed shop I believe? You still are required to pay dues it is just less than the dues for membership.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Originally Posted by FlyUnder
"This is absolutely nothing compared to what is coming down the road. AWA pilots are dreaming of their windfall and have absolutely no concept of the powder keg that is set to go off.

Do you really think you are going to ride into town and steal our jobs? Good luck - you are going to need it."

Flyunder

Thank god I'm a bystander here. But, East pilots would have a LOT more sympathy if 1). They accepted what they agreed upon (binding arbitration), 2) the were part of the ACQUIRING company and, 3). They were not, yet again, a day away from applying at Walmart.

Many years ago, a certain company had considered aquiring another - except they didn't want ALL the planes NOR the poisonous attitude that would have come from many in the other pilot group. In the end, one company sank, putting those guys on the street while the other company acquired only the airplanes they needed and interviewed only pilots they wanted. In hindsight, this appears to have been a good move.

 

[denny]

Denny
You are correct that it is up to each individual person if they are a member. What I was trying to remember was the term closed shop I believe? You still are required to pay dues it is just less than the dues for membership.

Closed shop means you are required to join the union in order to get and keep a job. Airlines are open shop meaning you do not have to join the union. You do have to pay agency fees which are essentially the going dues rate. You can also file as an objector and pay a reduced rate fee which covers the direct representation costs.

Despite the fractious nature of USAPA and its questionable practices many west pilots are joining in order to help steer the union in a different direction. There are many issues before the membership that, with west votes, would take the union in a radically different direction. Namely away from the cliff!

 

[TWA Dude]

Airlines are open shop meaning you do not have to join the union. You do have to pay agency fees which are essentially the going dues rate.

Actually, what you describe is termed Agency Shop. An Open Shop requires neither joining nor dues/fees. There are no more open shop airlines for US pilots. AA was the last and they went agency shop in 2003 to get money from the TWA pilots who didn't join.

 

[glasspilot1]

Hey Dude:

Does USAPA have any legal way to appeal? If so, when may it happen?

Glass

 

[Bringupthebird]

What's more likely to happen; The west gets shut down overnight precipitating an exodus to the east, or gradual regrowth of both sides of the operation with advancement opportunities in both east and west bases? Once you've answered that, decide whether or not you should put all your effort into preparing for the first, including rejecting a major pay increase OR should you put your efforts into building a better contract for both sides and leave the boogeyman to Cleary and his fear-mongerers.

Remember, without a fight on his hands, Cleary and USAPA is irrelevant.

 

[TWA Dude]

Does USAPA have any legal way to appeal? If so, when may it happen?

The judge will issue a remedy (injunction) by the end of June. At that point USAPA will appeal. Points of fact: they cannot appeal the finding of the jury, only the judges applications of law in the form of inclusion/exclusion of evidence, sustaining/overriding objections, and the instructions to the jury. Basically, they're going to argue that their attorney knows the law better than Judge Wake. The Appellate Court will first decide whether to take the case or not. If they don't, it's over. If they take it they may find for us and make the case a firm precedent or worst-case scenario they could send it back to Judge Wake for a retrial. Only 4% of cases in the 9th Circuit are successful.

In the meantime, the remedy and eventual compensatory damages will stand pending appeal. So basically we're in darned good shape while USAPA pursues an expensive and likely fruitless endeavor. The fun continues.