Usapa lost!!!!!!!!!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Seeham loves in house unions... what a cash cow!

 

[UpNDownGuy]

If I were an Eastie I'd start getting used to the Nic. Someone mentioned that Sully testified. Think about that for a minute. He clearly had zero relevence to a DFR case, but the judge allowed him (and others) to testify. I've talked to pilots who sat through the whole trial, and they agreed that the judge gave USAPA enormous latitude to defend themselves, including Sully et all. I think appealing to a higher court isn't going to get the East very far. The chances of this being overturned are slim and none.

 

[iflyhigh]

MCDU:

I understand this is a public board and you are entitled to your views.

First you have no first hand knowledge that the East will not vote for a contract witht the NIC, only speculation. Alot of people out West might not vote for the contract with the work rules suck and pay sucks.

Secondly, please do not claim to work for US Airways, as you were already busted on another thread. I am sure, at least I hope, you have friend on the East that feed you information. Everyone's views are biased to how the current situation affects them. I can honestly say a vast majority of the pilots can not look at the situation from a company's perspective, everything is the company's fault nor from an outside point of view.

I have been on the inside of the operation and now on the outside of the operation. I can honestly say I don't know how things are going to turn out. If I did I would not have to work. Yes, I was on the West side and NONO I don't expect my job back anytime soon with the verdict.

All I expect is for a union to live by their word, tell me the truth, (ALPA Lied to) and not waste unions dues on fighting fellow company pilots. This union was wasted more money on legal fees, (Suing 18 pilots for RICO, this DFR lawsuit and appealling both cases in court). The only people getting anything out of this is the lawyers and management. I would be happy if I were managment.

Time to put the union dues to proper use getting a pilot contract, bringing the pilot group together and moving forward to pilots in a position to fight the company not each another.

I have said enough. Your opinion are for the sole purpose of starting fights like the EAST and are useless.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

If I were an Eastie I'd start getting used to the Nic.

If I were an Eastie I'd quit.

Seriously. Whatever you easties think is gonna happen or whatever was promised to you isn't going to happen. You'd be better off leaving at this point. Besides, you have placed so much hope in these futile attempts to push around the west that, because that didn't happen, you are just gonna be miserable as long as you stay here. That was the whole reason you voted for USAPA...and now USAPA can't deliver on its promises.

Easties, quit and go somewhere else. Its over. Either get on board or get the heck outta here. Everybody is sooo tired of your BS. We're sooo tired of your arguing, your lack of intergrity, your bad attitudes, your devisiveness, and your wasting of our time. Just do us all a favor and leave.

A NMB arbitrator, a Judge/Jury, and just about the rest of the professional aviation community have already seen right through your garbage arguments.

If you wanna stay then shut the heck up and quit making things worse. All your doing is hurting yourselves and taking us down with you. Quit acting like fools.

USAPA = FAIL

 

[johnsonrod]

Great job Westies! You saved their ARSES from near liquidation after 9/11 and then they $crewed you over. It's payback time for their complete stupidity...

 

[DrewBlows]

The Addington case ended today with the jury deciding that USAPA failed in its duty to fairly represent all of its members. Today’s decision, while disappointing, was not unexpected. Since we were required to argue our case with limited time and evidence and were hamstrung by questionable rulings and incorrect instructions, USAPA, quite literally, fought this battle with both hands tied behind its back. Given the circumstances, we have a hard time accepting the idea that we encountered truly unbiased impartiality. Although this is a setback, we are very confident that the errors of law we encountered in this venue will be corrected.

Really? Literally? The judge made USAPA tie their hands behind their backs? I'm not sure how this helps or hurts their cause, but I'm certain it's unprecedented.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Great job Westies! You saved their ARSES from near liquidation after 9/11 and then they $crewed you over. It's payback time for their complete stupidity...

They did not do anything. We are pilots. Even if it is true that America West saved US Airways from liquidation, the America West pilots had nothing to do with it just as the US Airways' pilots had nothing to do with US Airways failing. It is obvious now that the Nicolau award was extremely unfair. It might have been fair at that point in time, but now it has been proven that NIC did not account for the East attrition and recalls. The East had merger protection in their contract saying DOH while the West had no merger protection. I have no idea why the East pilots even agreed to arbitration. The East pilots do not want the West positions. They just want what they brought to the merger.

 

[MK82Man]

From where I sit on furlough from AWA, it is a very small victory. The bench trial for remedy is underway but damage assesment won't occur until August and most West Furloughees think we will be stuck on Furlough for quite some time.

We've argued from the beginning that we just wanted what all of us agreed too. Binding Arbitration. I and 174 other AWA pilots were furloughed out of seniority at great personal and financial cost. The idiot in the room is just that and nobody should give him the time of day. For the Easties reading these posts, now is the time to really think about the way forward. It is soul searching time, if you still have one. Stuck on your LOA for 10 more years or work in good faith and embrace your fellow US Airways West pilots. Maybe you'd just rather take the company under and milk it for whatever it is worth until the day the golden goose dies? From where I sit on the street, that is not advisable, as the economy really sucks out here.

Cheers to AWAPPA, Leonidas, and the West pilots who opened their wallets and hearts to achieve this victory. I wish it was the end of the road; but if the trackrecord of East US Airways pilots is factored in, we are just moving out on the highway to destination unknown. What a tremendous waste of time, money, and resources that would have been better served in a joint fight aganist management.

For all fellow Professional Airline Pilots, thank you for your support and please continue to pay attention to the 1700 AWA pilots who are far from goal line. Always, Always, Always remember, Out West, Integrity matters!

 

[hockeypilot44]

You and the other Easties are IDIOTS. It doesn't matter what the majority think, it is what was AGREED upon initially. TOO BAD SO SAD. USAir was close to liquidation, and AmWest had the CREDIT to get a mortgage and buy and save your arses. Your East pilots may have had more years, but they didn't HAVE TO STAY at USAir. They could have bailed and gone to Jetblue or some other airline. Nobody said you HAD to stay at the sinking ship called USAir. AmWest bought you, and saved you, and you are babies.

Great job WESTIES!


Bye Bye--General Lee

I'm glad things worked out for you at Delta. You did nothing different than the pilots that accepted US Airways as their employer in the 80's. Your SLI favored you at the expense of the NWA pilots. I am not sure you would be "singing the same tune" if you were on the losing side of your SLI.

 

[michael707767]

I'm glad things worked out for you at Delta. You did nothing different than the pilots that accepted US Airways as their employer in the 80's. Your SLI favored you at the expense of the NWA pilots. I am not sure you would be "singing the same tune" if you were on the losing side of your SLI.

IMHO Gen Lee was on the losing side of the SLI. But we agreed to the result and will live by it.

 

[Cowboy75]

For all fellow Professional Airline Pilots, thank you for your support and please continue to pay attention to the 1700 AWA pilots who are far from goal line. Always, Always, Always remember, Out West, Integrity matters!

Like Marty said in closing arguments, "a deal is a deal" and integrity is not a slogan to be mocked by questionable testimony.

 

[General Lee]

They did not do anything. We are pilots. Even if it is true that America West saved US Airways from liquidation, the America West pilots had nothing to do with it just as the US Airways' pilots had nothing to do with US Airways failing. It is obvious now that the Nicolau award was extremely unfair. It might have been fair at that point in time, but now it has been proven that NIC did not account for the East attrition and recalls. The East had merger protection in their contract saying DOH while the West had no merger protection. I have no idea why the East pilots even agreed to arbitration. The East pilots do not want the West positions. They just want what they brought to the merger.

Whatever Sully....listen, your GROUP agreed to something---called binding arbitration. He ruled after testimony. It was not unfair, it was agreed upon beforehand. In other words, YOU LOST AND YOU BABIES SHOULD QUIT IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT. Why again did the East agree to BINDING arbitration when they had a contract saying DOH in a merger? Shouldn't that have been brought up FIRST? Face it, you LOST and will lose the next round if it goes that far. You won't get a new contract until you accept the Nic Award, and that means less pay until then.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

IMHO Gen Lee was on the losing side of the SLI. But we agreed to the result and will live by it.

I think I may have lost a percentage or two total,(relative) but I am not unhappy with the results. I thought they were fair overall.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Hamburger]

Good on you MKMAN. You have stated it the case perfectly while maintaining your dignity in the face of the shameful lack of Integrity on the part of the East.
Best of luck to you and your fellows.

They did not do anything.

This is the most clueless thing I've read in quite some time. Just........wow. Reaching '9/11 truther' levels of ignorance.

 

[MCDU]

I think I may have lost a percentage or two total,(relative) but I am not unhappy with the results. I thought they were fair overall.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Well, the big difference between Delta and NWA merger and the AAA AWA merger was that Delta had recalled all their furloughees prior to the merger.

Had Delta merged while in BK a few years ago and while Delta had over a thousand on the street like AAA AMR UAL etc after 9/11 with AWA for example and the arbitraitor hands you a list 2 years later all the while you have recalled due to your side filling vacancies you created and then places all the now active Delta pilots hired in 2000 below new 2005 hires it would have been a windfall for AWA.

Every big airline had pilots on the street after 9/11. When the list AWA and AAA got awarded in May 2007, the most junior AWA moved up 25% on the combined list. The Arbitraitor Nicolau did not care that AAA was recalling at records pace to fill the age 60 retirements all the while shrinking to little over 210 airplanes. AWA got a Windfall, which ALPA policy says to avoid. Moving up 25% is a windfall on the backs of EAST pilots.

The big differnce between Delta NWA merger and the AWA AAA merger was the fact that no pilots were on furlough and that your relative seniority position did not change much when the list came out. At AWA, the most junior guy suddenly had 800 pilots below him.

M

 

[michael707767]

The big differnce between Delta NWA merger and the AWA AAA merger was the fact that no pilots were on furlough and that your relative seniority position did not change much when the list came out. At AWA, the most junior guy suddenly had 800 pilots below him.

Back when DAL had people on furlough, so did NWA. But it doesn't matter. An actively employed pilot should not go behind a pilot who is on furlough. I thought the Nic award was about right. Not perfect, but for reasons other than the treatment of the furloughed pilots.

Did the most junior AWA pilot suddenly have 800 pilots below him, or 800 furloughed pilots below him? Big difference.

 

[MCDU]

All furloughees were offered recall when the list came out. So, i do not know the exact number but in was maybe around 500 active and by the end of the year 800 active. They would have been back sooner, but they could only handle so many classes. They were using Jetblue sims to cover the need for the recallees.

M

 

[flybywire]

Always, Always, Always remember, Out West, Integrity matters!

I really hate to burst your integrity bubble but that is not true of everyone on the west. I don't think the first officer that flipped me off doing my walk around out in LAX had much integrity. I wonder if I was a guy, if he would have done the same? But I'm sure you think he's correct in what he did and can make lots of excuses for him right? Because he's a westie. So would it be fair for me to think all westies are like this loser? Not all east pilots are as you guys describe also. Maybe if you want some change someday, a great place to work where your proud to go to work, find a way to make it happen. As it stands BOTH sides are affected by whats going on.

 

[iflyhigh]

MCDU:

Remember one thing, it your memory can handle it. (I know you hate the West.)

Negiotiations for the seniority list merger started in the Fall of 2005. NO, and I mean no one was recalled at that point. It would have been impossible to develop a list without picking a date in time and using that seniority list. What you want the merger committee to keep taking new pictures.

By the way, I am sure you have forgotten this also. AWA retired 100 plus pilots from end of 2005 to 2008. Guess how many new hires 25. Why because the flying was being put out East and with the E190s. East was starting to fly some West routes. Company did not want to hire on both sides of the fence. Makes more business sense to hire on one or the other. (Oh yeah they make less money too.)

So before anymore spouts about how the East did not benefit in this merger, get the facts. I feel for the pilots at US Airways, they have suffered just like United pilots have suffered. They are no different, except they think AWA pilots should suffer.

By the way I was in the 92% at AWA when we merged. Guess where I am on the Nic 92%. Nothing changed. I got nothing. The top 500 positions on the NIC went to the top 500 US Airways pilots. Guess how many posiition the number 1 guys at AWA lost, 500. Yes, he had been at the company for 27 years. Believe me, the top guys at AWA did not think this was fair either. Bet you also forgot that. Some people lost, some people gained.

Now I am tired of this US Airways banter. I went through it in 2000 at UAL when US Airways wanted DOH and takeover the 777/747 captain seats. They only way those East would of flown an airplane that size in 2000 was in their dreams. Now they are attempting the same thing. Don't tell its different.

Go back to school, get a business degree and learn how business works. I will repeat management has won and the stupid pilots have let it happen, nothing more nothing less. I would do the same thing if I were management and wanted a group of employee divided.

Again go get an education and stop spouting off facts that you have no knowledge of.

 

[nwaredtail]

I think I may have lost a percentage or two total,(relative) but I am not unhappy with the results. I thought they were fair overall.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Yeah, you lost 1% right now and gain between 10-25% over the next 10 years with attrition from the NWA side, as I lose the same 10%. "I'm not unhappy with the results", what an buttplug.

Although I agree that this ruling is what it should be with regards to the USAir/AWA merger, GL is still a tool.

 

[Cowboy75]

Always, Always, Always remember, Out West, Integrity matters!

I really hate to burst your integrity bubble but that is not true of everyone on the west. I don't think the first officer that flipped me off doing my walk around out in LAX had much integrity.

Interesting that I had the same experience from an East F/O while on his walk around parked next to us at the gate. Remedy for that, smile for the cell phone camera and wave to the passengers who observed his childish behavior.

 

[General Lee]

Yeah, you lost 1% right now and gain between 10-25% over the next 10 years with attrition from the NWA side, as I lose the same 10%. "I'm not unhappy with the results", what an buttplug.

Although I agree that this ruling is what it should be with regards to the USAir/AWA merger, GL is still a tool.

Well great, at least we can agree that we think eachother are tools. Some of you guys complain about your situation in life, just as you drive off the lot with a new car. Yeah, seniority wise you were given a blow in your minds, (by 3 arbitrators who viewed weeks worth of testimony---heck they all must have been wrong), but your pay and most of your benefits and work rules were raised. Take that to the bank, and btw you guys look great in the new uniforms.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[IBNAV8R]

True justice after all of this crap would involve a big, shiny red Swingline.

 

[Sandhawk]

True justice after all of this crap would involve a big, shiny red Swingline.

AMEN, brotha !!!


imp:

 

[michael707767]

Yeah, you lost 1% right now and gain between 10-25% over the next 10 years with attrition from the NWA side, as I lose the same 10%. "I'm not unhappy with the results", what an buttplug.

Although I agree that this ruling is what it should be with regards to the USAir/AWA merger, GL is still a tool.

My relative position took a 2% hit. Down the road, my best case is 4% ahead of my relative position in a stand alone company. I don't think that 4% will even come close to making up for how much more senior the former DAL bases will become when things settle out.

 

[Redmeat]

Yeah, you lost 1% right now and gain between 10-25% over the next 10 years with attrition from the NWA side, as I lose the same 10%. "I'm not unhappy with the results", what an buttplug.

Although I agree that this ruling is what it should be with regards to the USAir/AWA merger, GL is still a tool.

Exactly.

"I'm not unhappy with the results".

GL...Effin tool.

 

[acpilot]

Outstanding! Couldn't be happier for the Westies! They deserve it!

 

[General Lee]

Exactly.

"I'm not unhappy with the results".

GL...Effin tool.

See ya in the crew lounge in ATL! (Wear your hat)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Raoul Duke]

Interesting that I had the same experience from an East F/O while on his walk around parked next to us at the gate. Remedy for that, smile for the cell phone camera and wave to the passengers who observed his childish behavior.

Was it FO Bradford? The genius email writer? He turned out to be the West's best witness.

 

[Grandpa +65]

Former America West Pilots Win in Court Ruling Over Legacy US Airways Pilots

By Brett Snyder | May 14th, 2009 @ 8:34 am


More than three and a half years since America West and US Airways merged, the integration of the pilot groups continues to inch forward very, very slowly. A big milestone was reached yesterday when the courts finally ruled in favor of the former America West pilots. It’s about time. But of course, this is still far from over.
Before I get into yesterdays news, how about a brief history? There was no question that merging these two groups would be difficult. The relatively junior America West pilots clearly would have different interests from the far more senior US Airways pilots. Unsurprisingly, the big sticking point was in regards to how to integrate seniority. It went to binding arbitration via the union (both were represented by ALPA), and a verdict was reached that made adjustments for the fact that the America West pilots had much less seniority. This blended seniority is similar to what Delta and Northwest agreed to, or so I understand.
The old US Airways pilots didn’t like this, so they decided to ignore that whole “binding” part of the arbitration. They opted to leave the union and start their own instead. The America West pilots were powerless to stop it, because the US Airways pilots had enough votes to overrule anything the America West pilots would have wanted. After the vote, USAPA was brought in as the new, independent union and the US Airways guys declared the seniority ruling to be void.
As you can imagine, this was a complete nightmare for the America West pilots who were unable to stop something that was an awful idea in the first place. So they did what they could, and they took the US Airways pilots to court to force them to accept the seniority ruling and actually implement it.
Yesterday, there was a unanimous ruling in favor of the America West pilots, so you’d think this would be done right? Of course not. The USAPA put out a press release immediately that came off as incredibly whiny.
Since we were required to argue our case with limited evidence and were hamstrung by questionable rulings and incorrect instructions, USAPA, quite literally, fought this battle with both hands tied behind its back.
You can see where this is going. Its appeal time! How incredibly ridiculous. They will fight this to the end, yet I don’t know anyone outside of the old US Airways pilot group who thinks that they’re in the right here. Its just sad to watch them flail about like this.
The incredible thing here is that until the seniority ruling is made, there’s no chance the company will talk about a new contract. And because of that, the US Airways pilots are just leaving money on the table. Way back when the merger happened, management offered to bring US Airways pilots up to the America West pay levels. They balked, and so the US Airways pilots are still on their old pay scale.
AirlinePilotCentral.com has the comparative hourly rates for the two pilot groups by seniority and aircraft type. The biggest overlap is on the narrow body fleet, so lets look at that for comparison.
A 15 year US Airways narrow body captain makes $125 per hour while an America West captain makes $142. Pilots are allowed by law to fly up to 1,000 hours per year, so if they flew the maximum they’re leaving $17,000 a year on the table. It’s been three and a half years since the merger, so by delaying this so long, that same pilot has missed out on about $60,000. Nice work guys. And this assumes that they wouldn’t have been able to make any salary gains in later negotiations, which they very well may have been able to do.
If they were smart, the US Airways pilots would have stopped fighting this long ago and tried to move on, but no. These guys continue to be stubborn and incredibly, nobody suffers more than they do.