Usapa lost!!!!!!!!!

[Flybywire44]

By the time this is over the US Air East guys will be retiring... They win, West won't get the time they lost (and should have waited for anyway) back.

 

[cactusboy53]

By the time this is over the US Air East guys will be retiring... They win, West won't get the time they lost (and should have waited for anyway) back.

Uh...you do realize that the judge is going to issue injunctive relief by May 20, 2009? Right? Are you also aware that while USAPA's legal team races for an appeal, the court will proceed with a damages (don't forget, this is now a class action law suit) trial? The word is that this trial will be sometime in August or September.

As this case unfolds in the Aviation community eye, I have to wonder if any hard line East pilots have taken the time to see what other professional aviators (other than former AWA pilots) think of their actions.

 

[Cowboy75]

Was it FO Bradford? The genius email writer? He turned out to be the West's best witness.

Interesting that the primary architect of USAPA was not in court to defend numerous documents with his signature. Seham and co had the audacity to question the very documents they provided in discovery simply because he was not there. Judge Wake reminded them of that very fact.

No problem locating the Sully and Skiles side-show to entertain the jury. The intent was to prejudice the jury into thinking that enforcing the arbitrated award would compromise safety. That left a door wide open for the plaintiffs to compare the safety records of America West and US Airways. Marty Harper chose the high road because he is a man of integrity. There was also ample evidence provided to prove the case.

He won the case by simply providing the jury with the facts.

 

[Flybywire44]

Uh...you do realize that the judge is going to issue injunctive relief by May 20, 2009? Right? Are you also aware that while USAPA's legal team races for an appeal, the court will proceed with a damages (don't forget, this is now a class action law suit) trial? The word is that this trial will be sometime in August or September.

As this case unfolds in the Aviation community eye, I have to wonder if any hard line East pilots have taken the time to see what other professional aviators (other than former AWA pilots) think of their actions.

Easy... All senior pilots of senior pilots agree with the East. All junior pilots agree with the West, but still no one cares. The bottom line is that West finagled more than they deserved and are paying a price for it.

 

[PuffDriver]

As this case unfolds in the Aviation community eye, I have to wonder if any hard line East pilots have taken the time to see what other professional aviators (other than former AWA pilots) think of their actions.

I'll take a stab at it. I think both sides have acted reprehensibly. The Easts didn't live by their word--and I'll give them an out that the award was IMO outlandish. Bk/govt owned--same thing. Both airlines were on equal footing financially, IMO. USAir had the advantage of an international. AWA had the pay. A wash.

The award was unfair. Arbitration looks for a fair outcome. To not include furloughs, esp those that are still on property, is outrageous. Relative to include all pilots with fences up until all recalled, with international operations thrown to the USAir guys would have been much more palatable IMO. You just cannot stick a 17 year pilot under a 4 month pilot. Especially one who is operating under USAirways ops certificate.

Regardless, both sides sticking to their guns, stomping their feet, and holding their breath will kill the company eventually, IMO. Without a doubt, traditional ALPA merger policy is toast.

 

[TWA Dude]

The bottom line is that West finagled more than they deserved and are paying a price for it.

The seniority list was compiled by the arbitrator George Nicolau after listening to both sides for over two weeks. What finagling do you allege took place? And who are you to determine what anybody deserves?

 

[cactusboy53]

I'll take a stab at it. I think both sides have acted reprehensibly. The Easts didn't live by their word--and I'll give them an out that the award was IMO outlandish. Bk/govt owned--same thing. Both airlines were on equal footing financially, IMO. USAir had the advantage of an international. AWA had the pay. A wash.

The award was unfair. Arbitration looks for a fair outcome. To not include furloughs, esp those that are still on property, is outrageous. Relative to include all pilots with fences up until all recalled, with international operations thrown to the USAir guys would have been much more palatable IMO. You just cannot stick a 17 year pilot under a 4 month pilot. Especially one who is operating under USAirways ops certificate.

Regardless, both sides sticking to their guns, stomping their feet, and holding their breath will kill the company eventually, IMO. Without a doubt, traditional ALPA merger policy is toast.

Opinions from pilots are like anal sphincters, EVERYONE has one (at least). You state the award was unfair, Nicolau and one neutral disagree. The other neutral stated that he thought the furloughed pilots should have been included, but stated the award stood otherwise. I think that the number one pilot on the list should have been an AWA pilot (he was #518). That said, I think that Nicolau's description of the aware is pretty spot-on. The bottom line is that both parties signed up for arbitration.

We are not "stomping our feet" in the West. We are taking a path of reasonably quiet & legal resistance (as is our right). My question is how much money will the East spend on what has become a landmark case in Duty of Fair Representation? Much like a major surgery, do you think it would be prudent to get a second or third opinion on USAPA's legal strategy?? That probably won't happen. We will continue down this path until all legal options have been exhausted.

In the meantime, Judge Wake will administer a remedy that will perhaps help the company work to a single agreement. If the vote is a single ratification, do you suppose the senior pilots would turn down $30K, $40K, $50K down (anyone brave enough to tell your wife / husband that you did)? Add to that the chance for California commuters a one leg commute to PHX.

Isn't it tragic that this "merger" has now easily eclipsed the NWAL / Republic merger? Who would have thought?

 

[TWA Dude]

I think both sides have acted reprehensibly.

Interesting that you make that statement yet in the following paragraphs you fail to mention how you feel the West has acted reprehensiby.

Both airlines were on equal footing financially, IMO.

A company in its second bankruptcy within three years on equal footing with an airline that nobody was even rumoring about filing? Is it your "opinion" that the sky is green too?

Regardless, both sides sticking to their guns, stomping their feet, and holding their breath will kill the company eventually, IMO.

Betch it won't.

Without a doubt, traditional ALPA merger policy is toast.

I don't suppose you noticed the new federal law forcing Allegheny/Mohawk LPPs which essentially mimicks ALPA merger policy. That means binding arbitration, by the way. The truly must be green in your world.

 

[eaglesview]

I'll take a stab at it. I think both sides have acted reprehensibly. The Easts didn't live by their word--and I'll give them an out that the award was IMO outlandish. Bk/govt owned--same thing. Both airlines were on equal footing financially, IMO. USAir had the advantage of an international. AWA had the pay. A wash.

The award was unfair. Arbitration looks for a fair outcome. To not include furloughs, esp those that are still on property, is outrageous. Relative to include all pilots with fences up until all recalled, with international operations thrown to the USAir guys would have been much more palatable IMO. You just cannot stick a 17 year pilot under a 4 month pilot. Especially one who is operating under USAirways ops certificate.

Regardless, both sides sticking to their guns, stomping their feet, and holding their breath will kill the company eventually, IMO. Without a doubt, traditional ALPA merger policy is toast.

You are correct in my opinion however both sides here on FI will not budge. You are also correct in stating you can not reasonably stick a 17 year pilot underneath a 4 month one and expect harmony, aint going to happen. Usair should have backed off of their DOH or nothing stance. As a result you got this standoff.

TWA Dude calls me an USAPA apologist in 5.4.3.2.1......

 

[PuffDriver]

Opinions from pilots are like anal sphincters, EVERYONE has one (at least). You state the award was unfair, Nicolau and one neutral disagree. The other neutral stated that he thought the furloughed pilots should have been included, but stated the award stood otherwise. I think that the number one pilot on the list should have been an AWA pilot (he was #518). That said, I think that Nicolau's description of the aware is pretty spot-on. The bottom line is that both parties signed up for arbitration.

We are not "stomping our feet" in the West. We are taking a path of reasonably quiet & legal resistance (as is our right). My question is how much money will the East spend on what has become a landmark case in Duty of Fair Representation? Much like a major surgery, do you think it would be prudent to get a second or third opinion on USAPA's legal strategy?? That probably won't happen. We will continue down this path until all legal options have been exhausted.

In the meantime, Judge Wake will administer a remedy that will perhaps help the company work to a single agreement. If the vote is a single ratification, do you suppose the senior pilots would turn down $30K, $40K, $50K down (anyone brave enough to tell your wife / husband that you did)? Add to that the chance for California commuters a one leg commute to PHX.

Isn't it tragic that this "merger" has now easily eclipsed the NWAL / Republic merger? Who would have thought?

I agree that both parties signed up for arbitration, and I have met enough east pilots in my travels to know that they are not the sphincters that you make them out to be. They perceived the award as grossly unfair. I know several DAL and NWA pilots who perceived their award as unfair as well, but no lawsuits. Explain that one. Binding is just that-binding-unless the award is grossly unfair, and many outsiders think that it is. Hence the quagmire you find yourselves in. No doubt the east knew that they weren't going to get DOH, but what they got seemed a punishment rather than a "fair" award--at least to some of us.

I understand that you cannot look at this any other way, and that's fine. The poster asked for an opinion, and got one. It isn't up for debate. It's merely an opinion. Thank you for proving my "stomping feet" statement correct, though.

CIAO.

 

[Caveman]

I'll take a stab at it. I think both sides have acted reprehensibly.

Specifically, how did the West 'act reprehensibly'? They stated their case and, so far, every arbitrator, judge and court has agreed with them. Just exactly what has the West done that is reprehensible?

 

[PuffDriver]

Interesting that you make that statement yet in the following paragraphs you fail to mention how you feel the West has acted reprehensiby.A company in its second bankruptcy within three years on equal footing with an airline that nobody was even rumoring about filing? Is it your "opinion" that the sky is green too?Betch it won't.I don't suppose you noticed the new federal law forcing Allegheny/Mohawk LPPs which essentially mimicks ALPA merger policy. That means binding arbitration, by the way. The truly must be green in your world.

Sure I did. BK filings grew on trees in those days. Exit financing also grew on trees. YOU fail to mention that AWA was about 1/3 owned by the government at that time. A VERY unique situation, and not a level playing field by any means.

By ALPA merger policy being toast, I was referring to a joint PWA being negotiated and independently ratified in order to make the binding arbitration "effective" so to speak. Any one side can, and will, hold the entire thing hostage indefinitely--and it will probably still happen that way with AAA and AWA.

 

[PuffDriver]

Specifically, how did the West 'act reprehensibly'? They stated their case and, so far, every arbitrator, judge and court has agreed with them. Just exactly what has the West done that is reprehensible?

It's funny how you guys get a coronary whenever somebody disagrees with you. I do. That's all there is to it--and exactly 1/2 of the blame for the reason that you STILL don't have a contract nor single operations.

 

[cactusboy53]

I agree that both parties signed up for arbitration, and I have met enough east pilots in my travels to know that they are not the sphincters that you make them out to be. They perceived the award as grossly unfair. I know several DAL and NWA pilots who perceived their award as unfair as well, but no lawsuits. Explain that one. Binding is just that-binding-unless the award is grossly unfair, and many outsiders think that it is. Hence the quagmire you find yourselves in. No doubt the east knew that they weren't going to get DOH, but what they got seemed a punishment rather than a "fair" award--at least to some of us.

I understand that you cannot look at this any other way, and that's fine. The poster asked for an opinion, and got one. It isn't up for debate. It's merely an opinion. Thank you for proving my "stomping feet" statement correct, though.

CIAO.

Puff;
I know that emotions get the best of many people.

If you had read my post fully, you would have read that OPINIONS from PILOTS are like ANAL SPHINCTERS .....EVERYONE HAS ONE (at least). It was a jab at all pilots, as we are highly opinionated. It was not directed to ANY east pilot.

I re-read the ALPA merger policy, and checked the new law that Senators Bond & McCaskill penned that basically mirrors the ALPA merger policy. I saw no reference that states: "Binding is just that-binding-unless the award is grossly unfair.....". Again, this is your opinion, and it may be shared by some other pilots. If the East knew they weren't going to get DOH, then they should have negotiated or mediated that sentiment with the merger committee members and with mediator / arbitrator Nicolau. Nicolau gave them COUNTLESS opportunities to do so.

USAPA (the asylum) is being run by the inmates (and yes, I am a member in good standing). It is time for a vocal east majority to hold these "leaders" to task. They stated last year that the case had no legal merit. They stated that it would not see a court room. They stated that they were confident that they would prevail. They stated that should they not prevail, that they were prepared for an appeal. They have most recently stated that they were supremely confident that they would triumph in an appeal. What happens if no stay is given, and no appeal is heard? What happens if the judge issues injunctive relief that forces the Nic in the CBA?

 

[TWA Dude]

You are also correct in stating you can not reasonably stick a 17 year pilot underneath a 4 month one and expect harmony, aint going to happen.

You also can't reasonably stick a furloughed pilot with no expectation of recall ahead of an employed one. There's a reason Nicolau was the arbitrator BOTH sides agreed to instead of you making the decision.

Usair should have backed off of their DOH or nothing stance. As a result you got this standoff.
TWA Dude calls me an USAPA apologist in 5.4.3.2.1......

You know what? I'm going to give you a pass this time since you actually made a reasonable statement.

 

[MCDU]

The biggest travesty in the Nic was that it contained no fences to protect East flying and the fact that 17 year active pilots were put beind probation pilots. A simple ten year fence would have gotten enough votes to protect the aging East pilot group that have already lost the best paying contract and a 80% funded retirement. Nic gave West a windfall. That was to be avoided per their merger guidelines. If the award was fair you would see a different response by the 2 groups. One side clearly wants the award implemented, while the other is going down fighting. Better to die standing up then to live on your knees. (Zapata)

M

 

[MCDU]

You also can't reasonably stick a furloughed pilot with no expectation of recall ahead of an employed one. There's a reason Nicolau was the arbitrator BOTH sides agreed to instead of you making the decision.You know what? I'm going to give you a pass this time since you actually made a reasonable statement.

so, you are saying the Nic would in fact place West furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots now. And that would be wrong. The West pilots have no expectations to get recalled. PHX and LAS are downsizing and I see no expectation of west recalls.Thats what would happen if the Nic list would be. Placing West furloughed pilots ahead of active East pilots is wrong?

M

 

[doh]

MCDU, your argument is specious. West pilots would not be furloughed if the Nic was in effect. They would be senior.

 

[TWA Dude]

I know several DAL and NWA pilots who perceived their award as unfair as well, but no lawsuits. Explain that one.

Okay, I will. There's zero grounds for a lawsuit. Perception of unfairness isn't grounds for a suit. An actual law must be broken. The DFR suit we just won was due to USAPA violating labor law. The jury was well-informed of how unfair the Easties felt the Nicolau award was yet they deliberated a very short time before unanimously ruling against them.

Binding is just that-binding-unless the award is grossly unfair,...

Funny, that's pretty much what Sully said on the witness stand. It didn't work there either. It doesn't take a law degree to know how incorrect you are. The only lawful cause to overturn a binding arbitration is impropriety. All parties agreed there was none.

... and many outsiders think that it is. Hence the quagmire you find yourselves in.

The quagmire we're in isn't due to the opinion of outsiders. All that needs to be done is for the East to accept reality.

No doubt the east knew that they weren't going to get DOH, ...

What planet were you on during the arbitration hearings? DOH is exactly what they were expecting. If the AAA MEC had better managed their expectations (and not withheld the daily transcripts) they wouldn't have been so shocked. Nicolau told them they weren't getting DOH. HE TOLD THEM.

...but what they got seemed a punishment rather than a "fair" award--at least to some of us.

Have you read the Nicolau award. There's no vindictiveness there whatsoever. If he'd meant to punish them he would've said so.

 

[TWA Dude]

so, you are saying the Nic would in fact place West furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots now.

You're calendar is way off. Nicolau formed his list based on conditions in 2005. AWA: no furloughs. US Airways: 1900 or so furloughs. What we see today is irrelevent.