Usapa lost!!!!!!!!!

[FDJ2]

.... A cramdown of the Nic award by a Federal judge will only fan the flames.

There is no cram down of the Nic. Both sides agreed that Nicolau should construct the list and that the list he would construct would be implemented as the integrated seniority list. Case closed. Time to honor commitments made.

 

[BeCareful!]

That's a shame. I've seen bad behavior on both sides, although you guys seem a lot calmer after winning round one

But Metro your question about the fence is good: If it's all about the money, and you guys seem to think that the company will gush money on us if we can agree to something, and if you're honest that you don't want anything that wasn't yours before, then why not offer a fence and be done with it? No guarantee, but NIC with a fence might fly. I guess one problem is that your flying is shrinking, because your bases are mostly leisure markets, right? I'm not one of those armchair CEO's like a lot of y'all, but I keep hearing that AWA flying is contracting. I wonder what would have happened to you guys without this merger? I mean, I know Doug Parker told you all that it would have sucked, that you'd have gone CH11 and had to furlough, but I'm also sure none of you guys believe it or admit that it was true. Anyway, just sort of thinking out loud here. It takes two to have a disagreement this big, and your NIC-or-bust stance is obviously not helping.

 

[Cowboy75]

Metrojet,

I appreciate the tone of your post. It is in the same spirit that I witnessed in the courtroom with East pilots I came in contact with. I understand the SMF incident had been reported and the parties involved will have some explaining to do. Sure, we can vent on these boards, but not in public.

Those of us on the West have been accused of some sort of windfall. Hundreds of furloughed East pilots were recalled after Parker & co put the deal together. America West was hiring in 2005, US Airways was not. 175 West pilots who brought jobs to the merger are on furlough or slated to be. Most of all of the furloughs from the East were hired after operations were moved to Tempe. Evidence was introduced at the trial showing a trend of traditionally West trips being flown by East metal.

I can tell you my life was better prior to 2005 and pre-US Airways. Downgrades, seeing friends furloughed and going back on reserve is my windfall. I thought the Nic was a fair integration by giving your pilots the top 500 spots and then using a ratio to keep us at our same relative positions that we held prior to the merger. If you were a flying West pilot pre-merger you kept your position. If you were a furloughed East pilot, you had an opportunity to return to a position with the newly merged company, stock symbol LCC. What were the career expectations for the furloughees of an airline facing liquidation other than finding another job?

I'm in favor of East parity. Obviously we differ on how we get there from here.

We'll know a lot more in the next few weeks.

 

[Sandhawk]

I'm not one of those armchair CEO's like a lot of y'all, but I keep hearing that AWA flying is contracting. I wonder what would have happened to you guys without this merger? I mean, I know Doug Parker told you all that it would have sucked, that you'd have gone CH11 and had to furlough, but I'm also sure none of you guys believe it or admit that it was true. Anyway, just sort of thinking out loud here. It takes two to have a disagreement this big, and your NIC-or-bust stance is obviously not helping.

Maybe this contracting Bull s h i t will end if those USAPA morons win this arbitration for us westies - you know, the one about the 3,000 block hours per month that were illegally transferred to the East..........

 

[regionaltard]

why not offer a fence and be done with it? No guarantee, but NIC with a fence might fly.

Sorry Sparky, the east's opportunity to make that argument has come and gone.

 

[BeCareful!]

Metrojet,


I can tell you my life was better prior to 2005 and pre-US Airways. Downgrades, seeing friends furloughed and going back on reserve is my windfall.

Coyboy,

Why do you guys say this same thing over and over? Of course you haven't really received your windfall; it's in St. Nic's "award" that has not been cleared for takeoff. We all know this.

 

[BeCareful!]

Sorry Sparky, the east's opportunity to make that argument has come and gone.

Really? Why? Because you say so?

It's this type of grade school playground antics that keep us divided.

 

[B-atch]

Reason cannot be reached when both sides have made-up their minds. This is why wars of attrition are fought to the death. At the end who really wins.... No one.

 

[FR8mastr]

Maybe this contracting Bull s h i t will end if those USAPA morons win this arbitration for us westies - you know, the one about the 3,000 block hours per month that were illegally transferred to the East..........

You do realize that flying did not come East, it just went away dont you? The block hour greivance is about less flying not transferred flying. I hope you are just mistaken and not on here lying to further your cause.
By the way they are no longer under block hours East or West for the moment.
The Company did violate the west block hours for several months starting last fall. I hope the company gets it on that one!

 

[reepicheep]

I'm not one of those armchair CEO's like a lot of y'all, but I keep hearing that AWA flying is contracting.

Since the merger unit costs have risen to 2 1/2 times AWA's pre-merger costs which were in line with WN. Like PSA and Piedmont before them, AWA are finding that the fundamentals of their traditional markets have been permanently and negatively altered.

The claim from the east that AWA are mainly low-yield leisure markets that are losing money must be evaluated in this light. The two carriers brought vastly different models to the marriage, and neither is a good fit with the other. In fact it's hard to imagine two more ill-suited merger partners than America West and US Airways.

 

[UALjan15]

1. Why do the West refuse to agree to a 10 year condition and restriction from bidding each others base? That would protect the "attrition" for the east - and it would protect the west from getting bumped out of base from more senior pilots?

Because it ignores the huge factor of what the company will do with the flying/domicile mix. We all are aware of what happened to PSA flying, and most AWA guys are wary of a repeat performance. In addition, who is going to fill all of the right seats back east after all of these attrition upgrades? New hires, right? Are you trying to say that a new hire should be able to bid those seats and a west guy should not?

2. Why do the west believe that the phx Las furlough's are out of seniority when we are operating on two different contracts? Is that the same reason that some on the west believe the east should not be at parity for doing the same job since 2007?

Because we were furloughed before the "third list" new hires in direct violation of the transition agreement. This was so egregious that I don't even think most east guys saw it as fair (though USAPA didn't do much to rectify it). As for parity, the west is all for it. But no one is stupid enough to just grant it without a joint contract/seniority award, as that would effectively end all contract negotiations for the next 10 years.

Who knows what the future holds - for east or west. I don't want anyone on furlough. But what happens if their is a another merger and we are split up? Then we are all in more uncertainty - it could be good or bad for west and or east.

Maybe that ship has sailed....when faced with possible mergers with us, both DAL and UAL MECs brought the grenades into the board room, pulled the pins, and promised to toss them on the table if management didn't cease and desist merger explorations. Contrary to your claim, there is no uncertainty--everyone in the industry knows that a merger with US Air has only one possible outcome: misery.

My two cents - not trying to flame - just would like a fair solution that benefits all 5000 of us.

Honestly, no flame here either--but how do we get back to negotiating once the whole process has moved to litigation? The reasonable conclusion is that now, post Addington, the Nic is going to be part of any deal made, and all parties can now resume getting the best possible contract out of Parker & Kirby. But after reading USAPA's concession message , I would say we're closer to where we were 2 years ago, when the chorus from the east was "No joint contract = no Nic." The big difference now is that back then, you could find west guys that would have agreed to some form of fences or attrition protection for the east side, but after 2 years of hell and a slam dunk DFR win, attitudes have changed to much more hardline (and rightfully so!). When USAPA loses the last available appeal, will there finally be meaningul negotiation, or more stonewalling?

 

[Cowboy75]

It's this type of grade school playground antics that keep us divided.

I left the playground almost 50 years ago and don't care to join you in the sandbox.

 

[TWA Dude]

This conflict will be over when the East realizes their mistake in withdrawing from joint contract negotiations in 2007. That's when they basically said, "we're taking our ball and going home!". To come now and accuse the West of being unreasonable for not conceeding on the Nicolau award is hypocritical in the extreme. We played by all the rules while the East didn't. USAPA broke the law as proven in court. That's why we won't agree to any fences or whatever other concessions you try to extort from us.

And BTW, as you know the company has been paying close attention to the court proceedings. Now that they know the Nicolau list is the only seniority list we'll ever use they're going to be very careful about how they handle future furloughs. Something to keep in mind for those who think seperate operations forever is possible.

Oh, and to whomever thinks it's impossible for the East and West to ever fly together: bullcrap! The APA crammed down a dreadful seniority list on the TWA pilots but they somehow manage to work together now. Life goes on and professional pilots will cope. Those who can't cope will have premature heart attacks (it actually happened to some Ozark pilots) and that'll be that.

 

[Joey Bagodonutz]

There can be no fences at this point.

The West has no legal entity to negotiate on behalf of only West pilots.

Leaving Alpa was the dumbest thing the East could have done. Under Usapa there is no East or West, just one single group. The Usapa experiment guaranteed a full strength Nic if abrogating the award failed. It failed last week.

East pilots are their own worst enemies.

 

[PHXFLYR]

There can be no fences at this point.

The West has no legal entity to negotiate on behalf of only West pilots.

Leaving Alpa was the dumbest thing the East could have done. Under Usapa there is no East or West, just one single group. The Usapa experiment guaranteed a full strength Nic if abrogating the award failed. It failed last week.

East pilots are their own worst enemies.

Can I get an "a-fn-men" from the congregation ??


PHXFLYR