So let me get this straight this happened on Sat at 8am and gets posted at 6:30pm on flight info? Did it happen to you? or is it third party information? If it happened to you sounds like a huge set up to me. If the guy didn't want to make conversation with you why did you keep bugging him just to get the kind of reaction you got so you could run and tell somebody? My 4 year old does that to buddy your in good company.
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Usapa lost!!!!!!!!!
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So let me get this straight this happened on Sat at 8am and gets posted at 6:30pm on flight info? Did it happen to you? or is it third party information? If it happened to you sounds like a huge set up to me. If the guy didn't want to make conversation with you why did you keep bugging him just to get the kind of reaction you got so you could run and tell somebody? My 4 year old does that to buddy your in good company.
This is absolutely nothing compared to what is coming down the road. AWA pilots are dreaming of their windfall and have absolutely no concept of the powder keg that is set to go off.
Do you really think you are going to ride into town and steal our jobs? Good luck - you are going to need it.
Flyunder
get2flyin
Flyinawa!
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Oh man...that is awesome. Thanks for the good laugh. Lemme guess, you were in the famed "Embraer Division"? How is it some of you East guys can talk so tough in front of the keyboard but yet you won't even make eye contact with me us the terminal?
LOL..."powder keg".
MCDU
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Looks like you ran into the former ALPA spokesman Mr. Nice. Thats freundlich in german.
M
Cowboy75
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Oh man...that is awesome. Thanks for the good laugh. Lemme guess, you were in the famed "Embraer Division"? How is it some of you East guys can talk so tough in front of the keyboard but yet you won't even make eye contact with me us the terminal?
LOL..."powder keg".
They are trying to get you to come to their sandbox and throw sand in your face. Don't waste your time.
Because it ignores the huge factor of what the company will do with the flying/domicile mix. We all are aware of what happened to PSA flying, and most AWA guys are wary of a repeat performance. In addition, who is going to fill all of the right seats back east after all of these attrition upgrades? New hires, right? Are you trying to say that a new hire should be able to bid those seats and a west guy should not?
Because we were furloughed before the "third list" new hires in direct violation of the transition agreement. This was so egregious that I don't even think most east guys saw it as fair (though USAPA didn't do much to rectify it). As for parity, the west is all for it. But no one is stupid enough to just grant it without a joint contract/seniority award, as that would effectively end all contract negotiations for the next 10 years.
Maybe that ship has sailed....when faced with possible mergers with us, both DAL and UAL MECs brought the grenades into the board room, pulled the pins, and promised to toss them on the table if management didn't cease and desist merger explorations. Contrary to your claim, there is no uncertainty--everyone in the industry knows that a merger with US Air has only one possible outcome: misery.
Honestly, no flame here either--but how do we get back to negotiating once the whole process has moved to litigation? The reasonable conclusion is that now, post Addington, the Nic is going to be part of any deal made, and all parties can now resume getting the best possible contract out of Parker & Kirby. But after reading USAPA's concession message
UALjan15 -
I appreciate your honest answers. I agree that everyone has taken a hardline "in the sand". I am waiting to see what Judge Wake is planning to say next week - but from the initial look - he is not going to take away anyones right to vote on a joint contract - and as I said before - if "Nic" in the current form is part of any proposal - I just don't see the votes for a joint CBA to pass (see my comments earlier about the 517 getting pay raises as they turn 60 and start PBGC benefits).
That being said - to answer what happens if there are vacancies (east or west) with a fence - if no one bids the position - then it is open to anyone system wide to bid - check with your USAPA Phx Rep -
As to the "third list" that your referenced to in your comments about furlough - because of separate contracts - that is how it went down - do I think it is fair? do I see where your coming from - yes - I was just discussing this with someone yesterday and yea - I would be real angry if I were in your shoes.
Now we have to wait, and wait, and wait - while Parker and Kirby et al, keep all 5000 of us at the bottom of the industry. Until we all realize and come to a mutual agreement with the "Nic" - that it is up to each one of us as individuals to negotiate a better contract - you do not get paid what your worth - you get paid what you negotiate - we need each other (and many would probably disagree with me!) to show we are 5000 strong.
Metrojet
You would be wrong about the "division". Can't speak for others, but I personally have no problem making "eye contact" with anyone - I don't talk to AWA pilots because they are beneath contempt.
No "keyboard talk" here - just the facts. I can pretty much guarantee you that the ugliness is just getting started. Wish it wasn't so - but it is.
FlyUnder
It is quite possible that the Nicolau award can be implemented by the Court even without a joint CBA. And that is one of the remedies sought in this litigation.
C. The Court has authority and discretion to order the Airline to begin using the Nicolau Award for promotions and furloughs by a date certain, even if a single CBA is not yet finalized.
The Ninth Circuit allows a district court to impose an interim scheme for furlough order and promotion order while the union complies with the court’s remedy of unfair representation in the context of a seniority merger.
See Bernard v. Air Line Pilots Assn., Intl., 873 F.2d 213, 215 (9th Cir. 1989).
The judgment approved in Bernard “vacated and set aside [an existing] seniority integration agreement … and … specified the basis by which pilots would be furloughed, promoted and given flying assignments in the interim period until a new agreement could be reached.” Id. (emphasis added).
Following Bernard, this Court has authority and discretion to direct the Airline to begin using the Nicolau Award for promotions, furloughs, and
giving flying assignments before a single CBA is finalized.
Plaintiffs concede, however, that prior to doing so, the Court should afford the Airline opportunity to be heard. (See doc 439).
The judgment approved in Bernard “vacated and set aside [an existing] seniority integration agreement … and … specified the basis by which pilots would be furloughed, promoted and given flying assignments in the interim period until a new agreement could be reached.” Id. (emphasis added).
Following Bernard, this Court has authority and discretion to direct the Airline to begin using the Nicolau Award for promotions, furloughs, and
giving flying assignments before a single CBA is finalized.
Plaintiffs concede, however, that prior to doing so, the Court should afford the Airline opportunity to be heard. (See doc 439).
Probably wouldn't be so ugly if you kept your word and honored your agreements.
imacdog
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Fly-n-hi
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Yeah, except that it probably is his fault in some way.
imacdog
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Nah, it's not his fault that the airline he went to work for turned out to be a real turd. What he's failing to understand is that he does work for a real turd of an airline where 20 years of longevity does not afford much, if any seniority. He certainly could have seen the writing on the wall with furloughs that deep and applied to a successful company and ended up with a better career, but the failures of his company weren't a result of his skills as a pilot. How he deals with this, well that is his responsibility for sure.
If this isn't a classic example of ignorance I don't know what is, on so many levels.
FDJ2 -
I assume this legal wording came from the plaintiff's attorney - I do not remember reading this in any of Judge Wake's rulings during the trial, but I am pretty sure he said he would not take away an individual's right to vote on a CBA.
Metrojet
You are correct, this wording comes from the plaintiff's attorney. I very much doubt that the judge will take away the right to vote on a CBA, but that is a different animal than implementing Nicolau.
It would not surprise me to see the court order Nicolau implemented until such time as there is a joint CBA.
USAPA's has been found guilty by a jury of failing to fairly represent the west pilots. USAPA's bad faith attempt to by-pass a seniority list which is the product of a mutually agreed upon final and binding process has been exposed.
At the end of the day the Nicolau award is the only legally recognized joint list, it can not be negotiated away to give the majority east an advantage over the minority west.
USAPA's scheme to by-pass a final and binding seniority list will never survive legal challenge. Like it or not, Nicolau is the seniority list and it will ultimately be implemented, with or without a joint CBA.
FDJ2 -
I understand your point - I just question when you say the "Nic" will ultimately be implemented, (in the current form) with or without a joint CBA? From my understanding - in order for us to combine flight operations as defined in the Transition Agreement - we must have and approve a joint CBA? Without a joint CBA - we remain separate operations.
On another point - and I do not mean to inflame - as it relates to the term "final and binding" - have you ever heard of a criminal decision being overturned when evidence surfaces to prove that the original conviction is wrong (DNA etc). Without a fence to protect what each group brought to the merger of the corporations - The Nic in its current form doesn't address the east "attrition" or the west being invaded by the 517. Judge Wake did not allow the jury to hear any testimony about DOH with conditions and restrictions. Would an Appeal Judge allow this? I do not know for sure - but I do know this is costing US (East & West) a lot of money in legal fees and lost dollars in pay if we had a joint contract. That is why I say at this time it is critical for both sides to negotiate rather than litigate.
Metrojet
Metrojet,
The issue of a problem with the Nic list has already been addressed. As part of the process an investigation was launched to see if there was any fraud or misapplication of policy in the conception of the arbitrated list. No problems were found and the process went on to the next step - court intervention.
Since there were numerous steps in the process most people do not realize that by the time the issue gets to the federal courts the issue of seniority is no longer the issue. The issue was whether USAPA intended and acted to avoid implementing the list. The court found them guilty of that. The original Nic list did have fences and conditions which have long since expired. Over the last two years USAPA has acted in a concerted manner to avoid the arbitrated list. The court can force implementation of the arbitrated list now or the court can tie it to any negotiated agreement. The Nic list will be part of the next contract no matter what. The contract will most certainly be up for a vote by the membership but not the seniority list since the union already has abided by the process to make up the list.
The issue of a problem with the Nic list has already been addressed. As part of the process an investigation was launched to see if there was any fraud or misapplication of policy in the conception of the arbitrated list. No problems were found and the process went on to the next step - court intervention.
Since there were numerous steps in the process most people do not realize that by the time the issue gets to the federal courts the issue of seniority is no longer the issue. The issue was whether USAPA intended and acted to avoid implementing the list. The court found them guilty of that. The original Nic list did have fences and conditions which have long since expired. Over the last two years USAPA has acted in a concerted manner to avoid the arbitrated list. The court can force implementation of the arbitrated list now or the court can tie it to any negotiated agreement. The Nic list will be part of the next contract no matter what. The contract will most certainly be up for a vote by the membership but not the seniority list since the union already has abided by the process to make up the list.
Captzaahlie
My kind of FOD!
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Man! I'm even shaken over this (threat?) while on furlough.....
Hold on a second I want to just make sure I bolted the front door tonight......
(sarcasm implied ~ because I know you just wouldn't get it unless I spelled it out for you, ****************************** bag)
Flybywire,
Union membership is entirely up the individual. The company has no say in the matter. Now that the seniority issue is resolved many west pilots are now becoming members so they can vote.
Flyunder,
I understand your frustration but it is not of the west's making. It is the policy that both groups are bound to. If there is a powder keg coming I'll be more than entertained watching!
Union membership is entirely up the individual. The company has no say in the matter. Now that the seniority issue is resolved many west pilots are now becoming members so they can vote.
Flyunder,
I understand your frustration but it is not of the west's making. It is the policy that both groups are bound to. If there is a powder keg coming I'll be more than entertained watching!
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