Usapa lost!!!!!!!!!

[MCDU]

The biggest travesty in the Nic was that it contained no fences to protect East flying and the fact that 17 year active pilots were put beind probation pilots. A simple ten year fence would have gotten enough votes to protect the aging East pilot group that have already lost the best paying contract and a 80% funded retirement. Nic gave West a windfall. That was to be avoided per their merger guidelines. If the award was fair you would see a different response by the 2 groups. One side clearly wants the award implemented, while the other is going down fighting. Better to die standing up then to live on your knees. (Zapata)

M

 

[MCDU]

You also can't reasonably stick a furloughed pilot with no expectation of recall ahead of an employed one. There's a reason Nicolau was the arbitrator BOTH sides agreed to instead of you making the decision.You know what? I'm going to give you a pass this time since you actually made a reasonable statement.

so, you are saying the Nic would in fact place West furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots now. And that would be wrong. The West pilots have no expectations to get recalled. PHX and LAS are downsizing and I see no expectation of west recalls.Thats what would happen if the Nic list would be. Placing West furloughed pilots ahead of active East pilots is wrong?

M

 

[doh]

MCDU, your argument is specious. West pilots would not be furloughed if the Nic was in effect. They would be senior.

 

[TWA Dude]

I know several DAL and NWA pilots who perceived their award as unfair as well, but no lawsuits. Explain that one.

Okay, I will. There's zero grounds for a lawsuit. Perception of unfairness isn't grounds for a suit. An actual law must be broken. The DFR suit we just won was due to USAPA violating labor law. The jury was well-informed of how unfair the Easties felt the Nicolau award was yet they deliberated a very short time before unanimously ruling against them.

Binding is just that-binding-unless the award is grossly unfair,...

Funny, that's pretty much what Sully said on the witness stand. It didn't work there either. It doesn't take a law degree to know how incorrect you are. The only lawful cause to overturn a binding arbitration is impropriety. All parties agreed there was none.

... and many outsiders think that it is. Hence the quagmire you find yourselves in.

The quagmire we're in isn't due to the opinion of outsiders. All that needs to be done is for the East to accept reality.

No doubt the east knew that they weren't going to get DOH, ...

What planet were you on during the arbitration hearings? DOH is exactly what they were expecting. If the AAA MEC had better managed their expectations (and not withheld the daily transcripts) they wouldn't have been so shocked. Nicolau told them they weren't getting DOH. HE TOLD THEM.

...but what they got seemed a punishment rather than a "fair" award--at least to some of us.

Have you read the Nicolau award. There's no vindictiveness there whatsoever. If he'd meant to punish them he would've said so.

 

[TWA Dude]

so, you are saying the Nic would in fact place West furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots now.

You're calendar is way off. Nicolau formed his list based on conditions in 2005. AWA: no furloughs. US Airways: 1900 or so furloughs. What we see today is irrelevent.

 

[MCDU]

MCDU, your argument is specious. West pilots would not be furloughed if the Nic was in effect. They would be senior.

You are right. The only ones that would be getting the shaft once again would be East pilots and that shows how one sided the award went.
Yep the the 2005 DOH would be more senior then the 1988 DOH according to Nic and yes the 1988 pilot would hit the street first had the Nic been implemented. Even though the jobs the west brought are the ones lost. The East has given up to much. The concession stand is closed.

M

 

[Carl S.]

What ever the East gave up prior to the merger is their problem! That is water under the bridge, we work at a new company called LCC today. West pilots have lost the most since this merger in 2005, but that is the way the cookie crumbles. Nic. did have fences, but they came down with Age 65. Also the East's position at the arbitration was straight LOS, not DOH if I recall correctly. USAPA has a more harden position then the merger committee, because they thought the major did not have to answer to the minority(WRONG!!!).

 

[PuffDriver]

Okay, I will. There's zero grounds for a lawsuit. Perception of unfairness isn't grounds for a suit. An actual law must be broken. The DFR suit we just won was due to USAPA violating labor law. The jury was well-informed of how unfair the Easties felt the Nicolau award was yet they deliberated a very short time before unanimously ruling against them.Funny, that's pretty much what Sully said on the witness stand. It didn't work there either. It doesn't take a law degree to know how incorrect you are. The only lawful cause to overturn a binding arbitration is impropriety. All parties agreed there was none.The quagmire we're in isn't due to the opinion of outsiders. All that needs to be done is for the East to accept reality.What planet were you on during the arbitration hearings? DOH is exactly what they were expecting. If the AAA MEC had better managed their expectations (and not withheld the daily transcripts) they wouldn't have been so shocked. Nicolau told them they weren't getting DOH. HE TOLD THEM.Have you read the Nicolau award. There's no vindictiveness there whatsoever. If he'd meant to punish them he would've said so.

He, he, he, he....<sound of heart beating and veins popping out>

 

[TWA Dude]

Ya know, when I have no response I simply don't post.

 

[PuffDriver]

Ya know, when I have no response I simply don't post.

He, he, he, he....<sound of heart beating and veins popping out>

 

[doh]

You are right. The only ones that would be getting the shaft once again would be East pilots and that shows how one sided the award went.
Yep the the 2005 DOH would be more senior then the 1988 DOH according to Nic and yes the 1988 pilot would hit the street first had the Nic been implemented. Even though the jobs the west brought are the ones lost. The East has given up to much. The concession stand is closed.

M

The 1988 hire would be out of a job permanently if the west hadn't stepped in to save USAirways. So yes, he would be the one to take a temporary furlough. That is not a concession, but the price of having any future at all.

 

[cactusboy53]

The biggest travesty in the Nic was that it contained no fences to protect East flying and the fact that 17 year active pilots were put behind probation pilots. A simple ten year fence would have gotten enough votes to protect the aging East pilot group that have already lost the best paying contract and a 80% funded retirement. Nic gave West a windfall. That was to be avoided per their merger guidelines. If the award was fair you would see a different response by the 2 groups. One side clearly wants the award implemented, while the other is going down fighting. Better to die standing up then to live on your knees. (Zapata)

M

Marty;
You're right, the ALPA merger policy does state that a windfall is to be avoided. Your opinion that the west got a wind fall has the same value of mine that the top 517 east pilots got a windfall. If the east wanted a ten year fence, they should have presented that to the merger committees and to the arbitrator. Too late, no do overs. It's still a final and binding arbitration.

The award came with a 4 year fence. The fence came down with the age change as per Nicolau's instructions. I have no doubt that Cleary and his USAPA leadership will drive this union right over the cliff (have you ever watched lemmings do this?) in attempts to appeal the lawsuit (and other legal maneuvering). Members are being charged 1.95% of your wage right now. What will you be charged to continue this legal movement? If the west wins an the appeal, AND we win a damages trial....what will be the cost then??

If there are any east pilots out there that are tired of being led by the USAPA machine, now would be an EXCELLENT time to stand and be counted.

 

[Cowboy75]

Damn right. The fight will continue until the travesity of out-of-seniority furloughs end and pilots return to their respective positions. As long as there is a windfall, I will continue to fund the fight against USAPA.

Dave is is senior to Dean.

 

[vetrider]

You are correct in my opinion however both sides here on FI will not budge. You are also correct in stating you can not reasonably stick a 17 year pilot underneath a 4 month one and expect harmony, aint going to happen. Usair should have backed off of their DOH or nothing stance. As a result you got this standoff.

TWA Dude calls me an USAPA apologist in 5.4.3.2.1......

Maybe expecting harmony is unrealstic, but I think the west is reasonable to expect the east to abide by their agreements and the law. Nine regular Joes off the street who couldn't care less about either group apparantly agree with that as well. One side, guess which one, is out of bounds here.

You are a usapa apologist.

 

[abefly]

You are right. The only ones that would be getting the shaft once again would be East pilots and that shows how one sided the award went.
Yep the the 2005 DOH would be more senior then the 1988 DOH according to Nic and yes the 1988 pilot would hit the street first had the Nic been implemented. Even though the jobs the west brought are the ones lost. The East has given up to much. The concession stand is closed.

M

Your forgetting that AWA could have transferred their vegas and phoenix routes that were losing money to new markets on the east coast. This is what the new US Air did. The thing is they transferred it to the w************************* of the group who make less money, the east. Its simple business really. Continue on with your ignorance. Time for another beer.