US Airways Pilot/FA Recall

[vetrider]

Not worth the time ,,,dumb as you look? What?

Don't hurt yourself trying to make sense of that. The east's attempt at a DOH cramdown will not ever fly anywhere but in your own minds.

 

[Dornier 335]

I did fly a kite on the beach a few days ago. 23 MPH max rated. It was at least 35 that day. Busted the cross bar plastic thing and sailed into the ocean. Thank you for your concern. No one else felt bad for me. I appreciate it.

Just out of curiosity... Was that you?

Congrats to those that are coming back.

 

[St. Nic]

Don't hurt yourself trying to make sense of that. The east's attempt at a DOH cramdown will not ever fly anywhere but in your own minds.

Uhhh, Tashima and Graber will disagree with you!

 

[bluefin]

Back to the original programming, anyone get their letter yet? if so when does the indoc start?

 

[fwrtg]

Yup -- got letter today. July 2004 West hire. Class start date is Sept. 6

 

[bluefin]

Anyone know how many are going to be in the Sept. 6 class?

 

[xanderman]

Heard 16 from the west.

 

[xanderman]

Uhhh, Tashima and Graber will disagree with you!

What did Tashima and Graber say exactly...? I'll paraphrase here but I believe it was that USAPA is as free as ALPA was to negotiate away form the Nic. However, the minute USAPA implements anything other than the Nic the question of ripeness is answered in the affirmative. As I understand it today the BPR still plans to move ahead with the original DOH list with the C&R's they feel is fair. Clearly the west does not agree with this. The company got involved the other day and I am not stupid enough to pontificate on this board regarding their litigation. Suffice it to say that I believe this is the end game here and we gotta get this behind us. Period.

 

[Crzipilot]

What did Tashima and Graber say exactly...? I'll paraphrase here but I believe it was that USAPA is as free as ALPA was to negotiate away form the Nic. However, the minute USAPA implements anything other than the Nic the question of ripeness is answered in the affirmative. As I understand it today the BPR still plans to move ahead with the original DOH list with the C&R's they feel is fair. Clearly the west does not agree with this. The company got involved the other day and I am not stupid enough to pontificate on this board regarding their litigation. Suffice it to say that I believe this is the end game here and we gotta get this behind us. Period.

You paraphrased a little wrong with your own opinion there. They in fact said the opposite of you. They didn't say the minute USAPA implements ANYTHING other than the nic. They stated unequivocally that when a contract is voted in, then the ripeness question is met. THEY did not tie, ripeness and whether the seniority list had to be nic together. In fact they STATED that even IF the contract does NOT contain the NIC, it doesn't necessarily mean a breach of DFR exists.....

reread the notes and chew on that for a bit...


You guys seems to want the tie the matter of ripeness to the NIC. They are separate. The court basically said, nothing has happened yet, so a determination of breach of DFR is not RIPE, can NOT be determined at this time.

They seemed to do everyone a favor, and stated, that just because the seniority list does not contain the NIC, again doesn't necessarily indicate a breach of DFR. They stated that simply, you have to get a contract, (which hits the ripeness criteria) THEN look at what is contained in that contract to determine if a breach of DFR has happened, and the fact that an INTERNAL UNION PROCESS (from a different union) doesn't mean you have a breach of DFR........

So Easy even a caveman can do it....

 

[dugan jones]

got the certified letter today for the sept 6th E190 class, it says that i may fall within the seniority of those who may be recalled into the Sept 6th class. If my seniority does not hold a position in the class i'll be notified by phone, if i'm in the class i'll receive an information packet via feex.

 

[Guppiedriver]

You paraphrased a little wrong with your own opinion there. They in fact said the opposite of you. They didn't say the minute USAPA implements ANYTHING other than the nic. They stated unequivocally that when a contract is voted in, then the ripeness question is met. THEY did not tie, ripeness and whether the seniority list had to be nic together. In fact they STATED that even IF the contract does NOT contain the NIC, it doesn't necessarily mean a breach of DFR exists.....

reread the notes and chew on that for a bit...


You guys seems to want the tie the matter of ripeness to the NIC. They are separate. The court basically said, nothing has happened yet, so a determination of breach of DFR is not RIPE, can NOT be determined at this time.

They seemed to do everyone a favor, and stated, that just because the seniority list does not contain the NIC, again doesn't necessarily indicate a breach of DFR. They stated that simply, you have to get a contract, (which hits the ripeness criteria) THEN look at what is contained in that contract to determine if a breach of DFR has happened, and the fact that an INTERNAL UNION PROCESS (from a different union) doesn't mean you have a breach of DFR........

So Easy even a caveman can do it....

It's amusing to me that you find interpretation of the law to be so simple. Neither of us can read what was decided by the 9th and determine exactly what they meant.

One thing is certain....you guys signed on the dotted line and agreed that final and binding would be just that. If the courts allow you to weasel out of your obligations, it will turn the world of arbitration upside down. I don't see that happening.

 

[Crzipilot]

Think the only thing it would turn upside down is ALPA's merger policy, which as you have seen, they have already changed how the time line things etc.....

I.E. Yes the NIC list is real, IF ALPA had finilized a contract. Now they are gone, their process is gone. That process contained a possiblity of arbitration (which did occur but never implemented)

So since the merger of the pilot groups never occured, and a new CBA is involved, new rules, new process.....

Seems easy


Besides hijacking this thread....

Welcome back to the furloughed guys that decide to come back....

 

[xanderman]

You paraphrased a little wrong with your own opinion there. They in fact said the opposite of you. They didn't say the minute USAPA implements ANYTHING other than the nic. They stated unequivocally that when a contract is voted in, then the ripeness question is met. THEY did not tie, ripeness and whether the seniority list had to be nic together. In fact they STATED that even IF the contract does NOT contain the NIC, it doesn't necessarily mean a breach of DFR exists.....

reread the notes and chew on that for a bit...


You guys seems to want the tie the matter of ripeness to the NIC. They are separate. The court basically said, nothing has happened yet, so a determination of breach of DFR is not RIPE, can NOT be determined at this time.

They seemed to do everyone a favor, and stated, that just because the seniority list does not contain the NIC, again doesn't necessarily indicate a breach of DFR. They stated that simply, you have to get a contract, (which hits the ripeness criteria) THEN look at what is contained in that contract to determine if a breach of DFR has happened, and the fact that an INTERNAL UNION PROCESS (from a different union) doesn't mean you have a breach of DFR........

So Easy even a caveman can do it....

Okay. Probably some semantics here. Quote the part where they say "unquestionably ripe." In fact post the entire paragraph so we can read it in context. The only reason Nic is tied to this litigation is because USAPA refuses to use it. That is contrary to what I feel is fair representation. Hence the DFR. Regardless the company got involved the other day and one if not both sides is gonna have to take a bite of the s**t sandwich. I look forward to this being over soon. I look forward to people acting like grown-ups and professionals. Imagine an airline where we work collectively for the good of the entire pilot group. Yeah we'll always have our 2%ers but...

Have a good one. BTW did you get in on the recalls? Are you on property now? If not hopefully you got in...

 

[LaGarbage Man]

got the certified letter today for the sept 6th E190 class, it says that i may fall within the seniority of those who may be recalled into the Sept 6th class. If my seniority does not hold a position in the class i'll be notified by phone, if i'm in the class i'll receive an information packet via feex.

OK I lied, I am back in the thread but only long enough to say "Ditto" to what Mr. Dugan Jones has to say. I will be accepting recall (God Help Me). Maybe Sept. 6th class (depends on bypass rate) we will see, Starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel but with anything Airways, It still could be a big ol'e train fixin to make me a part of it's windshield. Now back to your regularly scheduled bitch fest.

 

[WickedPissa]

Any top 20 recalls of east bypassing?

 

[dugan jones]

Any top 20 recalls of east bypassing?

we've come up with 5 that are bypassing out of the top 20 so far

 

[Bad-Andy]

Garbage Man -- did you get the second letter yet? With 5 bypassing, that should make you guy #20 in the class..... (Just need 3 more...).

 

[Crzipilot]

Okay. Probably some semantics here. Quote the part where they say "unquestionably ripe." In fact post the entire paragraph so we can read it in context. The only reason Nic is tied to this litigation is because USAPA refuses to use it. That is contrary to what I feel is fair representation. Hence the DFR. Regardless the company got involved the other day and one if not both sides is gonna have to take a bite of the s**t sandwich. I look forward to this being over soon. I look forward to people acting like grown-ups and professionals. Imagine an airline where we work collectively for the good of the entire pilot group. Yeah we'll always have our 2%ers but...

Have a good one. BTW did you get in on the recalls? Are you on property now? If not hopefully you got in...

Ya I know still hijacking, but here's the Quote, it's in footnote 1 of paragraph 7. Here's both so you can read it in context.....

[7] Plaintiffs correctly note that certain West Pilots have
been furloughed, whereas they would still be working under
a single CBA implementing the Nicolau Award. It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated. That the court cannot fashion a remedy that will alleviate Plaintiffs’ harm suggests that the case is not
ripe.1

1The dissent asserts that “nothing would be gained by postponing a
decision, and the parties’ interest would be well served by a prompt resolution
of the West Pilots’ claim.” Diss. op. at 8017 (internal alterations,
quotation marks, and citation omitted). To be sure, the parties’ interest
would be served by prompt resolution of the seniority dispute, but that is
not the same as prompt resolution of the DFR claim. The present impasse,
in fact, could well be prolonged by prematurely resolving the West Pilots’
claim judicially at this point. Forced to bargain for the Nicolau Award, any
contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its
membership. By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain
in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members
— both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe
DFR suit, once a contract is ratified.

 

[dugan jones]

Garbage Man -- did you get the second letter yet? With 5 bypassing, that should make you guy #20 in the class..... (Just need 3 more...).

hey bad andy do you know how many are going to be in the sept 6th class? the 5 bypassing puts me up to #16

 

[LaGarbage Man]

Hey Andy, Yep I signed for the certified letter on Thurs. It will be real close for the Sept. 6th class. Looks like the 0200 sim time for me if I get that class or the 1400 sim if I am in the following one. I know what I would prefer to do but the wife would execute me if I did not get back to work ASAP. Of course Murphy's Law is in full effect and there has been some developments with a certain Corp. that I spoke with before. If it pans out you are moving up a number my friend. I will catch you up on Skype. Now stop making me keep posting here. It's making me look bad : ) Now this time for real I am taking my ball and going home. Plz feel free to continue the East/West love fest that we all just can't get enough of.

 

[LittleDeuce]

Sim Times

Hey Andy, Yep I signed for the certified letter on Thurs. It will be real close for the Sept. 6th class. Looks like the 0200 sim time for me if I get that class or the 1400 sim if I am in the following one. I know what I would prefer to do but the wife would execute me if I did not get back to work ASAP. Of course Murphy's Law is in full effect and there has been some developments with a certain Corp. that I spoke with before. If it pans out you are moving up a number my friend. I will catch you up on Skype. Now stop making me keep posting here. It's making me look bad : ) Now this time for real I am taking my ball and going home. Plz feel free to continue the East/West love fest that we all just can't get enough of.

Don't worry too much about the "E" period. Some of you will be going to MCO for sim training. We use Jet Blue's sims for the 2nd half of the qualification footprint. The CAT II/IIIa and RTO with Autobrakes has to be done in CLT.

Also, if you guys still have access to Wings, you can download all the manuals to review if you like. Just go to the Electronic library.

Welcome Back!

 

[E-Man]

If anyone cares, I will be bypassing.....Jan 08 east..

 

[get2flyin]

If anyone cares, I will be bypassing.....Jan 08 east..

Best of luck to you where ever your path has led.

 

[miaboeingcapt]

Garbage Man -- did you get the second letter yet? With 5 bypassing, that should make you guy #20 in the class..... (Just need 3 more...).

If 5 bypass that would make Garbage Man #18 and myself #21... Would be pretty cool for me! No 2nd letter for me yet...

 

[Whine Lover]

The Courts need to rule on this....

 

[xanderman]

Ya I know still hijacking, but here's the Quote, it's in footnote 1 of paragraph 7. Here's both so you can read it in context.....

[7] Plaintiffs correctly note that certain West Pilots have
been furloughed, whereas they would still be working under
a single CBA implementing the Nicolau Award. It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated. That the court cannot fashion a remedy that will alleviate Plaintiffs’ harm suggests that the case is not
ripe.1

1The dissent asserts that “nothing would be gained by postponing a
decision, and the parties’ interest would be well served by a prompt resolution
of the West Pilots’ claim.” Diss. op. at 8017 (internal alterations,
quotation marks, and citation omitted). To be sure, the parties’ interest
would be served by prompt resolution of the seniority dispute, but that is
not the same as prompt resolution of the DFR claim. The present impasse,
in fact, could well be prolonged by prematurely resolving the West Pilots’
claim judicially at this point. Forced to bargain for the Nicolau Award, any
contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its
membership. By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members — both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified.

I am sorry Crz. I can't see the quote you made in your original post.

You said

"In fact they STATED that even IF the contract does NOT contain the NIC, it doesn't necessarily mean a breach of DFR exists....."

Yes they did say that there may be a situation that does not include the Nic but they never said "it doesn't necessarily mean a breach of DFR..."

So you see if I or any other west pilot (there are many. about 1800 to be exact) feel USAPA is not meeting their duty of fair representation because they refuse to implement a seniority list originally agreed upon, then yes they are a target for failure of DFR. And don't spin it as though you had nothing to do with any prior agreements because the name on the door said ALPA. You know as well as everyone here that any successor union is subject to the agreements of the prior union. I suspect you'll disagree nonetheless... If so, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Have a good one. BTW I took the liberty of highlighting and bolding the point of my original post. Read that sentence especially the red and then tell me that you can throw a DOH list out there and not be dragged into court...

 

[WickedPissa]

we've come up with 5 that are bypassing out of the top 20 so far

Nice. Thanks.

 

[Crzipilot]

Yup. And dfr as defined by scotia is a wide range of reasonableness. Which the nic is not. So true. All 1800 of you can drag Usapa into court for any myriad of reasons you choose to claim as a breach of dfr, But just because you can dies not mean you will succeed. I've explained my views on the ruling in other threads which you can go read and argue if
You wish. But at this point I'm leaving this thread to the guys getting recalled for their info

 

[Bad-Andy]

If 5 bypass that would make Garbage Man #18 and myself #21... Would be pretty cool for me! No 2nd letter for me yet...

Now I'm hearing that 9 have bypassed. I hope the source is correct... And I hope they decide to send more letters to make up for the ones that bypass... Let me know if you get the second letter. Worst case, see you in a month...

 

[psw757]

Anyone have any info on whether or not there is going to be more classes after sept? I keep hearing that due to the high bypass rate on both sides that the company is planning on offering recall to everyone.