US Airways hiring

[KeroseneSnorter]

To me all I see from the pro usapa guys is nearsightedness. Forget for a moment all about the single CBA, nic or just plan east/west bickering. IF we're all usapa what do you guys think is going to happen during the next merger? Remember US Airways is the smallest of the 6, which to me means if we're not Alpa, then we're in trouble. Case in point, back when America West had an inhouse union (AWAPA) and had the United merger actually happened. Alpa would've easily been the surviving union and all the AWA pilots probably would've been stapled. Now, I'm no advocate of Alpa by any means, but I've said it before, in this case it's the lesser of two evils. Usapa will have NO CHANCE of surviving the next merger. Whatever your so called "clauses" and by-laws that some fancy lawyer wrote up won't mean squat if we're the smaller carrier, which WE WILL BE. Both sides east and west will come up on the short end of the stick.

For me that does not even factor into my decision. call it nearsightedness if you like, but I am looking a bit father out than the next merger. Under current policy and trend the mainlines will not exist at all before long. I have 26 years to finish out now, and unless the rj bleeding and outsourcing is stopped all I have to look forward to is seeing my job moved from ALPA carrier to ALPA carrier done by whoever decides to whore themselves out more. Airways is now 10 count them 10 seperate pilot groups flying under one paint job. Most represented by ALPA which means zero zip nada is going to be done about it lest it cost the association money in dues!

Comair and Eagle are a good example of how well their current union represents them. they finally got a decent contract for what they fly based upon their other peers and what has it got them? they are now being parted out and sold off in a slow death spiral. They are suffering the same fate that their legacy namesakes suffered under ALPA leadership....being undercut and outsourced by cheaper ALPA labor!

On the other hand Republic Airlines which is not ALPA is flying for 5 different airlines. They are somehow able to fly in 5 different paint jobs and make money and pay a bit above their industry counterparts at ALPA carriers while USAir, DAL, UA, etc etc all cannot figure out how to fly ONE paintjob using anywhere from 5 to 10 airlines apiece.

SWA and Jetblue do not have the problems we have, JBL may not make it but at least they will go down as a whole instead of being eaten from the inside. And SWA has been kicking everybodys ass for years with just ONE pilot list and ONE aircraft type!! The entire industry trembles in front of a crowd from Texas with a little in-house union and the highest payrates in the industry! There is never a question of who is going to be flying SWA colors next month.....SWA pilots will be!!

Me....I can barely keep up with who is flying my paintjob today.....much less a month or year from now. When will I get furloughed again so that a 21 year old guy with 400 hours can fly my schedule in my paintjob in a jet the size of my f-100 or 737 or 320? Next month? next year? next week?

 

[Dr. Rumack]

KERO,

I wish more easties made their arguments calm and logical like yours. In fact, I (west) agree with everything you posted. I do not think there are very many people out here that could really disagree with the point of your message. In fact, if the timing was not so horrible, I would not be surprised to see quite a bunch of guys out west jumping on your bandwagon.
Here is the problem. The timing IS horrible. Your outstanding points just mask the fact that this drive was a result of not wanting to bind to arbitration. Had you started this a year ago or a year from now I could get over that fact. I admire Karl Rove quite a bit for his ability to get people to vote for what he is showing them in one hand while not talking about what he has behind his back.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

KERO,

I wish more easties made their arguments calm and logical like yours. In fact, I (west) agree with everything you posted. I do not think there are very many people out here that could really disagree with the point of your message. In fact, if the timing was not so horrible, I would not be surprised to see quite a bunch of guys out west jumping on your bandwagon.
Here is the problem. The timing IS horrible. Your outstanding points just mask the fact that this drive was a result of not wanting to bind to arbitration. Had you started this a year ago or a year from now I could get over that fact. I admire Karl Rove quite a bit for his ability to get people to vote for what he is showing them in one hand while not talking about what he has behind his back.

The thing about it is that most of the east guys could live with the nic award if they were given some kind of protection to ensure that they could at least make a decent living or not get furloughed again. The raises that a combined contract means as currently laid out on the table are a long way away from what they had in 01, and still come up short of what they get if they stay seperate. Seperate means that they get their captain seat back and make more money than they could under the new combined list (remaining an F/O until retire.) with the raise even though it is at a lower pay rate. I have yet to meet a guy that really dislikes AWA guys, I am sure there are a few, there always are on both sides.

The problem is that every pilot on the list after the furloughs was a captain before 2002...everyone with the exception of maybe some of the 767 and 330 F/O's. The Nic award means that most of those ex Captains will never see the left seat again. Most I have talked to could live with that, if the pay and QOL was there, but even the raise that is proposed falls way way short of what they gave up, or stand to gain if the list stays seperate. Most lost (or relatively lost if you prefer) 14 to 16 years in the award. I have a good friend who was my favorite CAPt. to fly with before the furloughs who was hired in 1986. He never got furloughed and is now junior to a guy hired in 2000. The only problem he has with the nic award is that he has to wait for 14 years worth of guys who are younger than him to upgrade and then retire before he can get back to making the money he made in 2001. For him it is simply a money issue, nothing else. he has x amount of years to try and get enough to retire on and he doesn't see that it is possible under the current list. He will retire as an F/O after 30 years of continueous service to the same company if the NIC award stands as is with no fence. That is the brick wall that most of these guys are facing right now.

For me it doesn't really matter, on paper I lost 4 years in the deal. Bottom of the list is bottom of the list. The threat to my career is not the Nic award or my age, my achilles heel is the 8 regionals flying 76, 86, 99 seats or more in the colors of my airline. heck the EMB 170 and 75's were direct replacements of my job in 01. Now the 99 seaters are a direct threat to my job now....and that is where ALPA fails horribly. Everyday there is another ALPA sanctioned pilot group buying more and larger jets with the express purpose of costing me salary or my job completly....while that same ALPA is the one that is supposed to be protecting my salary and job. ALPA is the weak link in my career so far, not my bretheren at AWA.

I guess there are two schools of thought on the USAPA drive. One that the guys like my buddy have, and one that guys like me have. I am young enough to recover from any damage or perceived damage done by the Nic award. I would right now vote for the newbie union just over the facts that are damaging to me, ie the outsourcing and whipsawing that is proliferated by ALPA's policies and trying to represent everypilot in the country.

I could care less if the guy in the left seat is younger or less experienced or both than me as long as my career is reasonably protected and Pay and QOL are good. I have been a 121 Capt. twice now and also been a 37 year old 10000 hour 747 F/O sitting next to a 30 year old 6000 hour Captain. That is not what is the threat to my future career at Airways.

End result, two groups of pilots, younger and older with two different motivations for looking seriously at a new one airline, one list, protect only your own, and not the competition union. Like I said, it is hard to argue the results of SWA and AA. AA has issues like all legacies but they decimated ALPA in the TWA thing and have steered clear of BK while still trying to take back all their flying. SWA....well their results speak for themselves.

My reasoning is not for everyone, but it is worth a shot to me after being beat on and decimated while being a union man at three different airlines. In my veiw ALPA needs to get on the stick in hurry or I will find somebody else that will. They have used up all their freebies with me in my short 15 year career.

 

[m80drvr]

I have flown with 20 different Capts over the past few months and everyone of them is very vocal about getting rid of ALPA.

And I have NEVER flown with a captain that voted for the current we were working under. (3 different airlines)

Not a slam but most pilots will say anything that will make the trip easier. With the age 60 change I would assume that most AAA captains will vote in whatever will get them a faster pay raise. Unfortunately that is not the pickleballers. Does ALPA suck? YES. But will USAPA get the four striper next to you a raise in the next 4 years? NO.

Voting in USAPA will ensure that all of will get stapled during the next merger. You may not like what ALPA merger policy did to you (due the the east's poor representation) but at least there is a policy in place. With USAPA you have your own merger policy and no money to defend it. Say a UAL merger does happen, they are a pretty young pilot group compared to AAA, they and all of their ALPA resources will be used to fight USAPA's DOH "merger policy"

Like I said the east pilots will be demanding relative seniority after they see what an ALPA carrier will do to them in a merger. Again Remember TWA.




weasel_lips
Please enlighten me as to how giving the east pilots MORE vacation, Better duty rigs, and more days off for reserves wil force the company to furlough. Show me some facts and back up your statements.

 

[Dr. Rumack]

Don't make me start to respect the opinions of east guys; I do not go to web boards for that. Mind you, I said respect, not agree. I am not going to drone on like others regurging the west points as I am sure you are well aware of them. I stand by my statement that if you proposed dumping alpa at any other time I would be on board. Since it is obviously a smoke screen to prevent a merged list, as I think you concede, it will always be considered a tactic to unbind arbitration instead of a method of resolving many of the actual issues you mention. I look forward to arguing with you east people over a beer about more important things like how much I can not stand the Patriots and Red Sox.

 

[vetrider]

KERO,

Here is the problem. The timing IS horrible.

There is a reason their timing is horrible. Thats because no matter what kind of stuff they throw at us, eloquent or not, this drive is about nic, period.

Oh I know, the final straw, blah blah blah.... my ass, its about nic. They think they can outmuscle the west with numbers, who knows, maybe they can, we'll see.

 

[m80drvr]

Hey Kero

I like most of your posts becaus you left out the emotion that rules the east right now. That being said I do find some of your last post interesting.

The thing about it is that most of the east guys could live with the nic award if they were given some kind of protection to ensure that they could at least make a decent living or not get furloughed again.

So who in your estimation should get furloughed so you don't have to? I am furloughed AAA, so at 18 other west pilots, shoud we have to lose our jobs so you can get your career back on track? We moved on to a carrier that bought your company from bankrupcy. Please explain to me why I should be furloughed from a company that had planes on order, was making money and was HIRING 200 pilots a year.

The raises that a combined contract means as currently laid out on the table are a long way away from what they had in 01, and still come up short of what they get if they stay seperate. Seperate means that they get their captain seat back and make more money than they could under the new combined list (remaining an F/O until retire.) with the raise even though it is at a lower pay rate.

Who said their was going to be a flood of west pilots taking the east seats. If I remember correctly much of the retirements that were occuring were from the right seat anyway. This arguement also insinuates that the west brought no retirement so the table.


I have yet to meet a guy that really dislikes AWA guys,

It's nice to see you give us a chance to make a good first impression.

I am sure there are a few, there always are on both sides.

The problem is that every pilot on the list after the furloughs was a captain before 2002...everyone with the exception of maybe some of the 767 and 330 F/O's.

That may be true but please show me some numbers. AAA had MANY bypassers that bid QOL.



The Nic award means that most of those ex Captains will never see the left seat again. Most I have talked to could live with that, if the pay and QOL was there, but even the raise that is proposed falls way way short of what they gave up, or stand to gain if the list stays seperate. Most lost (or relatively lost if you prefer) 14 to 16 years in the award. I have a good friend who was my favorite CAPt. to fly with before the furloughs who was hired in 1986. He never got furloughed and is now junior to a guy hired in 2000.

So he should have gone from last on the list to senior line holding captain in one day? I will assume that he was at the bottom of the east list fo at the time of the merger, where exactly do you think is would be fair to slot him in?




The only problem he has with the nic award is that he has to wait for 14 years worth of guys who are younger than him to upgrade and then retire before he can get back to making the money he made in 2001.

I cannot find where seniority at ANY airline is based on age. I'll keep looking though.



For him it is simply a money issue, nothing else. he has x amount of years to try and get enough to retire on and he doesn't see that it is possible under the current list. He will retire as an F/O after 30 years of continueous service to the same company if the NIC award stands as is with no fence. That is the brick wall that most of these guys are facing right now.


The west is already paying quite a price. No new hires for THREE years, complete list stagnation. The arguement that the east is paying the price for this merger is beginning to fall on deaf ears. You as an unemployeed pilot at the time of the merger will be off reserve with a better QOL than me in a short time.

For me it doesn't really matter, on paper I lost 4 years in the deal. Bottom of the list is bottom of the list. The threat to my career is not the Nic award or my age, my achilles heel is the 8 regionals flying 76, 86, 99 seats or more in the colors of my airline. heck the EMB 170 and 75's were direct replacements of my job in 01. Now the 99 seaters are a direct threat to my job now....and that is where ALPA fails horribly. Everyday there is another ALPA sanctioned pilot group buying more and larger jets with the express purpose of costing me salary or my job completly....while that same ALPA is the one that is supposed to be protecting my salary and job. ALPA is the weak link in my career so far, not my bretheren at AWA.

AMEN Brother



However this works out it is VERY unfortunate that East guys hate me for what I have done to their career. I and the AWA pilot group did nothing but help your career. The people who screwed you were Wolf, Gangwhal, and the dumba$$ that was CEO after them. Then you may want to thank your reps for demanding DOH even after the arbitrator told them to change their arguement.

 

[TWA Dude]

Thats always possible. What I am seeing out there does not show it though.

I'm sure that's true but it's also true that people often talk tougher than they vote.

No wish to speak with us or answer our questions while on furlough and before until all the sudden now I matter again because I get a vote on tossing them out,...

Interesting how your laundry-list of issues with ALPA are largely at the MEC/LEC level. In fact, though no Easties admit to it publicly, your local leadership has failed you greatly. Remember the transcripts!!! I keep harping on this because I truly don't understand how your leadership can withhold such information from you yet you don't scream for their recall. Had you guys known what Nicolau had said his decision wouldn't have come as such a shock. Your leadership had an obligation to warn you then acted as "shocked" as the rank-and-file when Nicolau delivered exactly what he said he would. How can you possibly guarantee the USAPA leadership would be any different?

You also talk about the degredation of QOL at USAirways under ALPA's leadership -- as if any other union would've done better. The union always seems to get the blame when things go sour but in truth with the financial hardships USAirways was facing no union would've done any better. More scapegoatism. When faced with taking concessions or liquidation most pilots will choose concessions.

It has not been lost on me either that the only group in the country that has taken an active stance to bring all flying under a single brand back to a single seniority list is not ALPA. APA at AA is the only ones will enough gonads to try it, why???

I gotta laugh when you put the APA up on a pedastal. Don't forget that I'm a member of the APA and I frequent their message boards. They are equally screwed up as ALPA. They also constantly bemoan their lack of influence in Washington. The APA is not an organiztion to aspire to.

And what about SWAPA? Well, my friend, if and when Southwest ceases being profitable, those stock-options tank, upgrades stagnate, and those long productive days lose their appeal I guarantee the satisfaction with SWAPA will ebb just as it happens at any airline when things aren't peachy.

And you mention Chautauqua/Rebublic. I can spell Chautauqua correctly because I used to fly for them. That's right, I was a Teamster as well. You think the Teamsters deserve the credit for the juggernaut Republic has grown into? I guess this is scapegoatism in reverse. Republic has won so many codeshare agreements because its management has undercut the competition. This has nothing to do with the pilots beyond the fact that Republic pilots aren't the highest-paid in the industry. You can be rest-assured that when Republics costs go up the next round of codeshare agreements will go to the airline that undercuts them. And the Teamsters won't be able to do anything about it.

The ALPA of the 30's and 40's is long dead. Now they are just a different form of airline mgmt.

Oooo, bold statement. Once again, scapegoatism. When times are tough we look to our union to save us but it's simply asking the impossible. Not only is the ALPA of the 30-40s gone but so too is that economy and regulated industry. The post-deregulated era reshaped the industry. The Legacy carriers no longer rule the skies exclusively. Simply being a Legacy no longer entitles you to an advantage over a smaller carrier in a merger.

I strive for pragmatism over emotionalism. Your points for USAPA are really just pro-change as if any change will be good. That's a fallacy. Dumping ALPA may give you a visceral high but when the honeymoon is over and USAPA is representing 1700 pilots violently opposed to anything that alters the status-quo (aka the Transition Agreement) you're going to find yourselves unhappy still.

ALPA Merger Policy is negotiate, mediate, arbitrate. That's as fair as fair can be. The result could be DOH, Relative Seniority, a staple job, or anything in between, depending on what's fair as determined by a neutral party. No Eastie complained about it until they got something they didn't like. Your reaction is USAPA. And the USAPA guys are leading you to believe a new union somehow nullifies previous agreements. Agreements can be altered but a union would never do something that advantages one pilot group over another, no would it?

Back to the APA, it's kind of funny how there used to be a substantial movement to rejoin ALPA. ALPA had budgeted like $15,000 in 2000 for the recruiting effort. But when they saw how ALPA sold-out the TWA pilots the movement largely died. After all, who'd want to be in a union that sells out a larger group of its own pilots? If USAPA's goal were truly to represent ALL USAirways pilots they wouldn't be telling y'all they can nullify the Nic Award, now would they?

Not all change is good.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

M-80, In Order

1. When I say protection from furlough I refer to stopping the outsourcing and the proliferation of 86 and 99 seat mainline replacement jets. Let someother airline go find their own customers.

2. There were approx 350 Captains retiring out of the first 500 numbers alone in the next 4 years prior to the 65 thing. Retirements are listed on seperate thread here somewhere but ratio is about 180 to 60 or so a year for next 10 years...now 15 quick averages of course.

3. I never judge a book by the cover or the uniform...gotta fly with a guy first to see if he is an a$$hole!!

4. Don't have the numbers handy, but as a 737 200 driver I flew with all the junior Capt.s and all were hired in 87 to 89. The furloughs went back to 88. A few bypassers sure, but not in any large numbers.

5. Not a factor of slotting him. He is just worried about being able to retire. He is not the type of guy to care what seat, just looking to make a good living. For him it is a simple problem of which contract or list is best for him. By his calculations fighting the nic as stands and staying seperate gets him the best salvage out of his career. just like the rest of us view it.

6. The "younger" comment refers to the fact that they will still be on the list above him when he has to retire as an "older" pilot. Only used the term younger to show the uphill battle he has over getting back to the left seat. Time in service would be a better term to use but I would have caught heat over thatone two. Here goes though. He has 22 years of unbroken time in service to AAA while the guy senior to him has 7 years.

7. List stagnation is a price of airline flying. we all just got another 5 years of stagnation thanks in part to ALPA. AAA may have gone away with out the merger, but AWA was no real prize either. We both had our problems. If somehow we can come to some understanding, even if it is keeping the list seperate until every pilot prior to 1990 retires (I know, Iknow, just saying for sake of point) we could make this into a nice place to work with good conditions.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

TWA,

I am under no illusions that APA or USAPA is the cure to all problems.

ALPA however has completley failed. Looking back at the last 10 years industry wide proves that.

Some is the LEC, some is National. National is the only one with the power to stop the whipsawing and outsourcing, if they were not trying to represent the ones doing the outsourcing. The LEC's are also ultimately controlled by what ALPA national does.

You are right the teamsters suck, as an ex Republic 170/175 driver I can attest to that. Point is that Republic manages to fly 5 paintjobs and it takes 5 to 10 airlines to fly one paint job....that is a failing of the union to protect the flying and keep it where it belongs. In house. 320 RJ's are just around the corner. Skybus is just a taste of it. Laugh now but 10 years ago an EMB 175 sized airplane flying at a regional was a gutbusting joke that would never happen. You gonna depend on ALPA to keep your bus for you at mainline with their track record? SKYBUS is probably going to be looking to get into the codeshare market very soon here.

I do not have all the answers, but ALPA sure doesn't look like they have a clue what is happening either. Change is sometimes good, gets rid of the deadwood and refocuses people on what their priorities are.

ALPA still has a chance, the vote hasn't happened yet, change as you say is coming, either ALPA changes its priorities or the pilot groups will start doing it for them. USAirways I think is just the test case if what I hear from buddies at the other legacies is accurate.