US Airways hiring

[PositiveRate]

TWA - my hat is off to you for your contributions on this board.

Over the past 2 years you have been one of the most upstanding, well reasoned and even tempered posters of our pilot group. You are particularly spot on in this thread.

It's very scary what's going on here. Even more frightening is the reasoning some of our East counterparts use to justify possibly upending 5000 careers by voting in USAPA..

The following 3 quotes from TWA Dude summarize perfectly the failed foundation on which the desire to change unions is being built....

"Okay, yet again somebody needs to explain this to you. The harm to the careers of the USAirways pilots was already done before the AWA merger was announced. Nicolau didn't take one thing away from you guys. Nor did he give us anything we didn't already have. But you don't really need me to explain this; Nicolau eloquently explained his reasoning in the Award. Please re-read it instead of pestering us with your misconceptions. "

"Funny, but when an Eastie says he wants DOH that means they want zero upgrades for the West for years and for us to be your furlough-fodder. That's what DOH means when every active East pilot on the day of the merger is senior to 3/4 of the AWA list. Do you disagree?"

"In the summer of 2005 half the USAirways pilots were captains and half were FO's, right? The Nicolau list maintains that. What YOU want is for all those FOs to become captains before any more AWA FOs do. Does that really sound fair? "

 

[TWA Dude]

My pleasure. I must also commend Snorter for his dispassionate demeaner in discussing these divisive issues. Too bad so few others can.

 

[737 Pylt]

2 questions for you guys:
1.) Did the list get delivered to Parker yesterday? What was the outcome? (ok, that's 2 questions there, I know)
2.) Is there any chance that your management (Parker/Kirby) would operate seperate ops?

737

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

TWA - my hat is off to you for your contributions on this board.

Over the past 2 years you have been one of the most upstanding, well reasoned and even tempered posters of our pilot group. You are particularly spot on in this thread.

It's very scary what's going on here. Even more frightening is the reasoning some of our East counterparts use to justify possibly upending 5000 careers by voting in USAPA..

The following 3 quotes from TWA Dude summarize perfectly the failed foundation on which the desire to change unions is being built....

"Okay, yet again somebody needs to explain this to you. The harm to the careers of the USAirways pilots was already done before the AWA merger was announced. Nicolau didn't take one thing away from you guys. Nor did he give us anything we didn't already have. But you don't really need me to explain this; Nicolau eloquently explained his reasoning in the Award. Please re-read it instead of pestering us with your misconceptions. "

"Funny, but when an Eastie says he wants DOH that means they want zero upgrades for the West for years and for us to be your furlough-fodder. That's what DOH means when every active East pilot on the day of the merger is senior to 3/4 of the AWA list. Do you disagree?"

"In the summer of 2005 half the USAirways pilots were captains and half were FO's, right? The Nicolau list maintains that. What YOU want is for all those FOs to become captains before any more AWA FOs do. Does that really sound fair? "

What you gained in the merger is access to retirement seats, most of which are left seats that AWA did not bring to the table. The ratios of retirements are in the neighborhood of 180 to 50 for the next 10 years (pre 65 rule) Unless the nic award is specifically laid out in a fashion that fully accounts for that retirement ratio, which it does not, it is a massive windfall for the west pilots. Assuming zero growth and that all retirements were from the left seat (they may or may not be but for argument lets say they are) in Year #1 the only fair way to each group would be for 180 east pilots to upgrade and for 50 west pilots to upgrade. ANYTHING other than this ratio is a windfall for one or the other group. (using actual Capt retirement numbers for each group per year)

This ratio would in no way stop the upgrades of the AWA F/O's they got what they brought and the east guys get what they brought. Split the growth airplanes up anyhow you like since they are new seats that neither side had access to pre merger.

Anything that grants access to the higher number of east retirements to a west guy constitutes a windfall no matter how you look at it. And that is the core problem the east guys have with the nic award. that is why they will probably kill the airline before they relent on this item.

For me by the time it got to my number or my AWA counterpart in the relative list it would probably be a moot point, but for a couple thousand late 40 and early 50's guys it is the difference between a career and nothing. They figure nothing of nothing is still nothing so they will do what ever they feel is necessary to try to keep their career alive. Right now they do not have a career left.

Remember I am talking about basing the upgrades for each side on their corresponding ACTUAL Captain retirements from each side. If 123 East Captains retire 123 east F/O's upgrade, if 123 west Captains retire 123 west F/O's upgrade. Growth seats can be figured out in a pool tournament or a beer drinking contest or whatever!

If the AWA guys were to go for this I can guarantee that the rank and file east pilot would have zero problems with it. In fact that is all I ever hear them say that they would expect. However currently NIC is giving east retirement seats to west pilots and that is what will destroy our airline if somebody does not come to their senses and sit down over a beer and figure out the upgrade schedule for the next 10 years. It is pretty freaking easy to cipher out, just whip out the friggin seniority lists and start counting Geezers headed out the door each year!! 65 is freaking 65. Everybody who turns 65 in that year counts as one!!!!!

 

[vetrider]

I've got an idea, why don't all westies just stand down from discussing this any more. Doing so just slowly but surely erodes the fact that it has been decided by a respected arbitrator, and only works toward legitimizing the east's belief that there is a problem.

Lets just let the easties talk to themselves. It only took the company a day or less to accept the list once that idiot Prater did what he was supposed to.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I've got an idea, why don't all westies just stand down from discussing this any more. Doing so just slowly but surely erodes the fact that it has been decided by a respected arbitrator, and only works toward legitimizing the east's belief that there is a problem.

Lets just let the easties talk to themselves. It only took the company a day or less to accept the list once that idiot Prater did what he was supposed to.

Hmm, same response I got last time when I explained what the east guys were looking for in this mess. Too fair for you I guess.

As an east guy who talks with the guys most affected everyday by this I can say that they are never ever going to accept the way it is now. Destruction of the airline will be the only result and then we all lose.
one East Capt. retires one east guy upgrades, one west Capt. retires one west guy upgrades.

You cannot get more fair than that. If the retards at the MEC's had done this in the first place we would not have a problem. DOH was a stupid idea on our MEC side, not going for this 1 to 1 ratio now is a stupid idea on your MEC side.

 

[vetrider]

Hmm, same response I got last time when I explained what the east guys were looking for in this mess. Too fair for you I guess.

As an east guy who talks with the guys most affected everyday by this I can say that they are never ever going to accept the way it is now. Destruction of the airline will be the only result and then we all lose.
one East Capt. retires one east guy upgrades, one west Capt. retires one west guy upgrades.

You cannot get more fair than that. If the retards at the MEC's had done this in the first place we would not have a problem. DOH was a stupid idea on our MEC side, not going for this 1 to 1 ratio now is a stupid idea on your MEC side.

Nicolau explained himself, its done. JNC, maybe the east guys should look into it instead of boycotting.

Throwing our feelings back and forth over the web won't do anything. JNC is where its at.

 

[weasel_lips]

One thing is for certain. ALPA is gone.
Everything else is uncertain.

 

[vetrider]

One thing is for certain. ALPA is gone.
Everything else is uncertain.

You're old enough to know that death and taxes are all thats certain.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Nicolau explained himself, its done. JNC, maybe the east guys should look into it instead of boycotting.

Anything that forms a joint contract right now hurts the east guys unless the retirement thing can be worked out. They are better off as a stand alone and they intend to stay that way until the retirement issue is fixed.

The way I laid it out above the west guys lose nothing....except the retirement windfall that nic provides. Yeah he explained himself, and the east guys don't give a crap if he did or not, they are dead set against giving east retirement seats to west pilots. Just telling you what I see as a fact everyday.

Now if the JNC wants to meet and fix the retirement issue we could all probably be enjoying a nice fat raise within 3 months and a new contract. Otherwise we may all be looking at the unemployment line as this place implodes.