US Airways hiring

[KeroseneSnorter]

There is a reason their timing is horrible. Thats because no matter what kind of stuff they throw at us, eloquent or not, this drive is about nic, period.

Oh I know, the final straw, blah blah blah.... my ass, its about nic. They think they can outmuscle the west with numbers, who knows, maybe they can, we'll see.

At my current place on the sen. list age 65 hurt me far more than NIC did. Nic is a done deal, I am looking much farther down the road. I see skybus as our future unless we take back control of our flying. ALPA so far is not doing that.

Bottom line then I am done here. Thanks for the discussions all regardless of which side you are on.

I have given this upcoming vote lots of thought in the past few weeks, talked to a lot of people etc. Bottom line for me is this.

Why should I vote to stay in ALPA given all that they have done or not done in the past 10 years? Under their watch at three airlines I have seen my career decimated and thrashed. Outside influences affected it sure such as 9/11. But our underlying problem is outsourcing. That was fully in ALPA's control to stop if they had wanted to. Outsourcing is the plague that is killing our industry. ALPA shows no sign of even attempting to control it.

That is my final question. Disregarding any theoretical or possible merger or the sun exploding, Why should I vote to keep ALPA on the property? What have they done lately to keep my support and money coming in?

The 400 RJ's they allowed to start flying around in our paintjob in the last 6 years while they parked 200 of our airplanes is not a good answer to make me send them a check!

 

[vetrider]

Actually Kerosene I believe that you are sincere, and I sense you are a good guy. I should leave you out of my generalization. Overall though, in the grand scheme of things, I still believe that if nic would have let the east have their way we wouldn't have heard of usapa.

I'm far from the sharpest tool in the shed, but even I can see whats going on here. Heck, the usapa founders have actually spelled it out, they are so blinded they've let it out no matter how else they try to make it look honorable.

 

[TWA Dude]

ALPA however has completley failed. Looking back at the last 10 years industry wide proves that.

ALL unions have failed due to forces larger than us: the economy and bankruptcy court. I'd really like to know how you think any union could've stopped the concessions and furloughs of the past six years. I'm not saying Woerth couldn't or shouldn't have been more visionary but really what would've saved this profession? (That is, besides the popular option of letting one Legacy liquidate so the others should survive.)

LEC's are also ultimately controlled by what ALPA national does.

I completely disagree. May I remind you that your MEC is suing our MEC? Do you think the lawsuit has merit? (And did you know that your attorney (Roland Wilder) is the same guy who ALPA supplied to defend the TWA pilots?) If National was controlling your MEC I'd think they wouldn't allow such a lawsuit. They also wouldn't have allowed you to withdraw from Joint Negotiations.

Point is that Republic manages to fly 5 paintjobs and it takes 5 to 10 airlines to fly one paint job....that is a failing of the union to protect the flying and keep it where it belongs.

Once again, ALPA and APA both failed at this. When Comair started flying those CRJs in the early '90s nobody could've known what was in store. Not even management.

320 RJ's are just around the corner. Skybus is just a taste of it.

That doesn't make sense. Skybus is a startup like Jetblue was and like Virgin America is. RJ airlines are "virtual" airlines that fly at the behest of their codeshare partners. (Exception: that Expressjet operation out west which is doing poorly.)

Laugh now but 10 years ago an EMB 175 sized airplane flying at a regional was a gutbusting joke that would never happen. You gonna depend on ALPA to keep your bus for you at mainline with their track record?

You gonna depend on USAPA to do what nobody else can do?

SKYBUS is probably going to be looking to get into the codeshare market very soon here.

Nope. Their model is Ryanair and that doesn't allow for codeshares.

Change is sometimes good, gets rid of the deadwood and refocuses people on what their priorities are.

How'd that work for the APA? I'm not saying they didn't have a good reason for seceding but they're now the biggest airline in the world and they haven't been able to do any better than ALPA -- at anything.

USAirways I think is just the test case if what I hear from buddies at the other legacies is accurate.

Perhaps so. And when the rest see the poopstorm that descends on us should USAPA win they'll know. That fact is over a third of the combined USAirways pilots are dead-set against USAPA. That's no formula for sucess. If USAPA wins do you think the West will want to work with the East?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

When Comair started flying those CRJs in the early '90s nobody could've known what was in store. Not even management.


If USAPA wins do you think the West will want to work with the East?

1st. No not in the early 90's, but everybody even dumb old me knew what was coming by 2000, and if you couldn't see it by Jan 2002 you were dead. In 2000 USAirways had a total of 12 RJ's flying in their colors.......we have hundreds now. And that is after we tried to control them on a local level. Without National support it was all just pissing in the wind.

2nd. And that would differ from now in what way?


Not working together in a new union with a chance of better control over our brand flying and bringing more airplanes inhouse, or not working together in the same set up that sent 400 RJ's out to 8 different airlines. Really I do not see where you are going with this. We are about as disfunctional a mess as you can get right now in regards to East/West. A change from ALPA would only rearrange the deck chairs, 1/3 and 2/3 would still be the split.

I am still looking for a reason to keep ALPA on the property. I have wracked my brain over the past weeks looking for a reason and have not found anything better than "ALPA has a good aeromedical division" So at least I can get good medical advise while they work me to the bone for 1/2 my old rates and half the time at home.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Oh and my SKYBUS comments were designed to point out the fact that A-320's are already being flown cheaper than RJ's are. It is only a matter of time before mgmt figures out that they can profit from the bus's better cost to seat ratios and a guy shows up with a bucket of paint to slap "Express" on the side of our busses. The only reason that the 190's do not have express on them yet is that there appears to have been at least a few hairy T's still left in a negotiating committee. Bedford at Republic however does include the 190 in their long range (read late 08 early 09) business plan. Since we are their largest "customer" and we are what got him in the 170/190 business in the first place...........

 

[TWA Dude]

Without National support it was all just pissing in the wind.

USAirways wasn't unique. The same thing was going on at every Legacy. I don't like to sound fatalistic but I really don't think there was a choice. There hadn't been 50-seat mainline planes in decades. Many commuter airlines were already flying 70+ seat turboprops. The cat was already out of the bag -- another effect of deregulation.

Not working together in a new union with a chance of better control over our brand flying and bringing more airplanes inhouse, or not working together in the same set up that sent 400 RJ's out to 8 different airlines. Really I do not see where you are going with this.

Were I'm going with this is that the "problem" the East claims it's having is coming from the East. The West isn't looking to bring in a new union. If USAPA wins you'll have the double problems of an ineffective union (as most are) and a hopping-mad third of your pilots. You'll be going from one big problem to two. See?

We are about as disfunctional a mess as you can get right now in regards to East/West. A change from ALPA would only rearrange the deck chairs, 1/3 and 2/3 would still be the split.

If USAPA loses the East will have no choice but to re-enter joint negotiations -- or continue with LOA 93.

I am still looking for a reason to keep ALPA on the property.

When the choices are "bad" or "worse" one chooses "bad". That's reason enough to keep ALPA.

Oh and my SKYBUS comments were designed to point out the fact that A-320's are already being flown cheaper than RJ's are.

What do you mean by cheaper? An A380 has the lowest cost-per-seat but that doesn't make it a good plane for the PHL-LGA route. RJs are only efficient on long, thin routes. Plus, startups always have cheaper operating costs. Notice what's happened to Jetblue? Even Southwest isn't as spunky as in the past.

The only reason that the 190's do not have express on them yet is that there appears to have been at least a few hairy T's still left in a negotiating committee.

I agree but we paid a huge cost to secure those planes: low salaries. Once again, you place the blame on ALPA but I submit any other union would've done the same. No union can or will protect us from a harsh economy and management willing to go to bankruptcy court to break us. Future legislation may correct some of this if we can keep the Republicans out of office long enough.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

USAirways wasn't unique. The same thing was going on at every Legacy. I don't like to sound fatalistic but I really don't think there was a choice. There hadn't been 50-seat mainline planes in decades. Many commuter airlines were already flying 70+ seat turboprops. The cat was already out of the bag -- another effect of deregulation.


Were I'm going with this is that the "problem" the East claims it's having is coming from the East. The West isn't looking to bring in a new union. If USAPA wins you'll have the double problems of an ineffective union (as most are) and a hopping-mad third of your pilots. You'll be going from one big problem to two.


See?If USAPA loses the East will have no choice but to re-enter joint negotiations -- or continue with LOA 93.When the choices are "bad" or "worse" one chooses "bad". That's reason enough to keep ALPA.


What do you mean by cheaper? An A380 has the lowest cost-per-seat but that doesn't make it a good plane for the PHL-LGA route. RJs are only efficient on long, thin routes.

1. So by your estimation we might as well go ahead and top out the pay at 65k for Captains on A-320? No not all went that way. All had problems, we at Airways by far were the most screwed by the RJ's. AA probably fared the best by keeping the companies flying them to a minimum..meaning better control over it. DAL held their own better than others as well though not by much.

2. You already have a hopping mad 2/3rds of the pilots. By your standards decreasing that to 1/3 would be an improvment. I have never seen a pilot group so united against something in my career. Regardless of reasons which differ per the age group and position. The last MEC message sounded more like the USAPA team than the ALPA team in regards to Praters actions this week. For guys that were downgraded then all the sudden told that they will NEVER get their capt seat back there is no where to go but up. My estimation by looking at the list the above downgraded pilots constitute about half the active list at time of merger filing. Remember that there were no F/O's left at Airways after the furloughs(except a few F/O's by choice on the heavies). The Junior Capt. in 01 was a 1989 hire date. The furloughs went to 1988. Everyone of those guys is effectively barred from ever sitting in the left seat by the nic award and age.

3. Bad and worse have very different definitions depending on which coast you sit on. For the east guys I talk with every one says the same thing, "There is nowhere to go but up, My career is destroyed as it stands now"

4. E 170's doing PHL to DFW, PHL to HOU, DCA DFW, DCA HOU, the list goes on and on. Mostly oversold all the time. Plenty of traffic for a bus or 737 but done at half the price......320's as RJ's will be next, oh it will not actually be a 320 but the Brazilian or canadian version of one. Take a look at the two companies "projects" pages on their web sights. Even Airbus has an "RJ" in the works. You don't really think they are planning on selling that puppy to the mainlines do you? the 170's at RAH are running everywhere and I do mean everywhere that the Busses and 737's are. The 50 seaters have all the short ex Turboprop routes. With ALPA's full blessing.

EDIT: It should be noted that I have never heard an East guy say that they wanted any westies seat. Most specifically say that "They brought their seats with them, I do not want any seat they brought or any seat from their retirements" All the east guys want is the seats and retirements that they brought to the merger. 860 in the first 5 years alone (adjust for age 65) If an agreement was made that guaranteed the east guys that they would get the east retirements seats there would be no problems between the two groups at all. Then we could move on to stopping the outsourcing problem that we have.

 

[PositiveRate]

Kerosene,

You need to re-read all of TWA Dude's posts on this thread because he is consistently spot on with his analysis.

To vote for USAPA because you have had a bad 15 yrs in the industry is as good as throwing darts in the dark.

The USAPA drive was born from a desire to undue the Nicolau award - had the ruling been LOS w/fences (aka DOH in disguise) - we would not be having this discussion.

Politicized leadership, apathy from the membership and an every pilot/pilot group for himself mentality is what is killing the airline union as we know it. USAPA does not have a solution to this. It was formed as means of undoing the process that led to the Nicolau award and starting over at the expense of every current and future security offered to you by ALPA.

ALPA offers a significant resource base that we would be pissing away with USAPA...all that will amount to is the same set of problems with less protections in the event we (God forbid) need any one of many career saving functions that ALPA will dutifully perform on our behalf.

Ideally you pay dues for an entire career and get only a magazine subscription - then you can be one of the lucky ones...but there are many pilots who can attest to the fact that the resources ALPA provides can save your career - USAPA would take many years and countless assesments to build the base necessary to provide such valuable insurance. If you desire change so badly, get involved and spearhead efforts from within. There seems to be widespread contentment with the path your MEC has put you on...that scares the West pilots and has broken any trust we have that your silent majority feels differently than what is put out by your leaders


We can change this course, but we have to work together - you need to think long and hard about the particular motivations that cause your leaders to publically roadblock progress of any kind before you foolishly vote for USAPA because of your desire for change.

What are your feelings on the fact that the East MEC has sued the West MEC? What do you believe are their motivations? Do you think this will affect anything positive for your career in the future? Your problems are at home - not at grandma ALPA's house.

 

[PositiveRate]

k,

"EDIT: It should be noted that I have never heard an East guy say that they wanted any westies seat. Most specifically say that "They brought their seats with them, I do not want any seat they brought or any seat from their retirements" All the east guys want is the seats and retirements that they brought to the merger. "

They brought their seat to a firesale for all practical purposes...yet all of the well-reasoned arguments from the East RE the "our attrition is ours and ours only" mentality assume that US Airways was not going to liquidate and was healthy enough to recover to the point where it is now with enough stability to say - "hey...this is my part of the pie". The only reason that stance can even be taken is the merger.

 

[TWA Dude]

1. So by your estimation we might as well go ahead and top out the pay at 65k for Captains on A-320?

I don't see how your question follows from my statements.

All had problems, we at Airways by far were the most screwed by the RJ's.

If you really think the RJs screwed you you're a lot more naive than I thought. Who allowed all those RJ's? (Hint: the pilots of USAirways.) Don't feel bad, though, because the same thing happened everywhere else.

AA probably fared the best by keeping the companies flying them to a minimum..meaning better control over it.

LOL! The APA has slightly better SCOPE because they didn't go through bankruptcy.

DAL held their own better than others as well though not by much.

Republic flies E170/175s for DAL. Yeah, they held their own great.

2. You already have a hopping mad 2/3rds of the pilots. By your standards decreasing that to 1/3 would be an improvment.

You need to work on your fractions. USAPA would increase the hopping-madders from 2/3 to 3/3.

I have never seen a pilot group so united against something in my career.

Might doesn't make right.

The furloughs went to 1988. Everyone of those guys is effectively barred from ever sitting in the left seat by the nic award and age.

Okay, yet again somebody needs to explain this to you. The harm to the careers of the USAirways pilots was already done before the AWA merger was announced. Nicolau didn't take one thing away from you guys. Nor did he give us anything we didn't already have. But you don't really need me to explain this; Nicolau eloquently explained his reasoning in the Award. Please re-read it instead of pestering us with your misconceptions.

3. Bad and worse have very different definitions depending on which coast you sit on.

Let me assure you it can get worse. You speak of the East's unity. Just wait until USAPA unifies the West.

Plenty of traffic for a bus or 737 but done at half the price...

You need to learn some more about airline economics. Pilot costs are a small percentage of a jet's operating cost. There's no sense in putting a smaller airplane on a route that can profitably sustain a larger one. NONE!

EDIT: It should be noted that I have never heard an East guy say that they wanted any westies seat.

Funny, but when an Eastie says he wants DOH that means they want zero upgrades for the West for years and for us to be your furlough-fodder. That's what DOH means when every active East pilot on the day of the merger is senior to 3/4 of the AWA list. Do you disagree?

Most specifically say that "They brought their seats with them, I do not want any seat they brought or any seat from their retirements".

In the summer of 2005 half the USAirways pilots were captains and half were FO's, right? The Nicolau list maintains that. What YOU want is for all those FOs to become captains before any more AWA FOs do. Does that really sound fair?

If an agreement was made that guaranteed the east guys that they would get the east retirements seats there would be no problems between the two groups at all.

You already got them. Problem solved!