US Airways hiring

[vetrider]

Anything that forms a joint contract right now hurts the east guys unless the retirement thing can be worked out. They are better off as a stand alone and they intend to stay that way until the retirement issue is fixed.

The way I laid it out above the west guys lose nothing....except the retirement windfall that nic provides. Yeah he explained himself, and the east guys don't give a crap if he did or not, they are dead set against giving east retirement seats to west pilots. Just telling you what I see as a fact everyday.

You know how your gonna get some with a girl? Yep, its usually right after she tells you that you aint gettin any. By this time in our adult lives we all know how what someone says they will do isn't always the same as what they actually do.

So far all we have is what the east guys are saying. Might that be the reason they are so afraid of actually coming up with something to vote on?

 

[Thebadcat1313]

What you gained in the merger is access to retirement seats, most of which are left seats that AWA did not bring to the table. The ratios of retirements are in the neighborhood of 180 to 50 for the next 10 years (pre 65 rule) Unless the nic award is specifically laid out in a fashion that fully accounts for that retirement ratio, which it does not, it is a massive windfall for the west pilots. Assuming zero growth and that all retirements were from the left seat (they may or may not be but for argument lets say they are) in Year #1 the only fair way to each group would be for 180 east pilots to upgrade and for 50 west pilots to upgrade. ANYTHING other than this ratio is a windfall for one or the other group. (using actual Capt retirement numbers for each group per year)

This ratio would in no way stop the upgrades of the AWA F/O's they got what they brought and the east guys get what they brought. Split the growth airplanes up anyhow you like since they are new seats that neither side had access to pre merger.

Anything that grants access to the higher number of east retirements to a west guy constitutes a windfall no matter how you look at it. And that is the core problem the east guys have with the nic award. that is why they will probably kill the airline before they relent on this item.

For me by the time it got to my number or my AWA counterpart in the relative list it would probably be a moot point, but for a couple thousand late 40 and early 50's guys it is the difference between a career and nothing. They figure nothing of nothing is still nothing so they will do what ever they feel is necessary to try to keep their career alive. Right now they do not have a career left.

Remember I am talking about basing the upgrades for each side on their corresponding ACTUAL Captain retirements from each side. If 123 East Captains retire 123 east F/O's upgrade, if 123 west Captains retire 123 west F/O's upgrade. Growth seats can be figured out in a pool tournament or a beer drinking contest or whatever!

If the AWA guys were to go for this I can guarantee that the rank and file east pilot would have zero problems with it. In fact that is all I ever hear them say that they would expect. However currently NIC is giving east retirement seats to west pilots and that is what will destroy our airline if somebody does not come to their senses and sit down over a beer and figure out the upgrade schedule for the next 10 years. It is pretty freaking easy to cipher out, just whip out the friggin seniority lists and start counting Geezers headed out the door each year!! 65 is freaking 65. Everybody who turns 65 in that year counts as one!!!!!

Kerosene,

Please allow me to also add my thanks for being civil and respectful in this debate. There are a few points I'd like to add.

It is not possible for any arbitrator to come up with an award that is 100% fair to everyone.

When an arbitrator runs into a gray area that is difficult to decide who should benefit from, he has a choice to make.

In this case, the arbitrator gave the advantage to the West pilots when he ran into those gray areas. He did this because the west had the brighter future and more promising business model.

There is a strong case to be made that the West was looking forward to continued growth with accellerated upgrades and career progression. By contrast, the east was facing almost certain liquidation. That does not mean that east pilots are bad pilots, are jerks, or are at fault for the situation. It does mean that they need to acquiesce a little on the arguement of career expectations. This means acknowledging that the west pilots are entitled to their upgrades, plus those that would reasonably have been expected absent the merger. Not only have those upgrades not occurred, but they have ground to a screeching halt in the last 2.5 years while upgrades on the east side have continued at a frantic pace. Management has used the situation to divide and conquer us.

Like the Dude, I am also a former TWA pilot. In that situation, I got no credit, whatsoever for the flying that my company brought to the equation. It was wrong. It was unjust. It was the most lopsided integration in major airline history. I was willing to acknowledge that we were the underdog in the merger and accept a diminished award, but not a staple job behind a new hire. I just wish you east folks would realize how fortunate you are to have had a process that ratioed all working pilots in to the list.

Lets keep ALPA on the property, get a new contract, and THEN talk about a new union. OK?

 

[waveflyer]

Ya'll are fighting a symptom and not the root cause.

The east guys would be better served to argue for a national list than further dividing unionized pilots. THEY ARE FIGHTING THE WRONG PEOPLE. Our version of seniority that allows for no movement between companies during the ups/downs of the VOLATILE industry- is the reason this has been so contentious. And here we are fighting each other..... management has to love it.

How? There are people on this board w/ much more experience than me- But i'll give a start. Why not make it voluntary? Find compatible airlines to begin with. Then invite others to join in. The domicile flexibility (does anyone REALLY enjoy commuting?), increased negotiating power, and security from a diversified set of companies governing your future instead of just one will motivate pilots to want to join in. As it gains momentum the whole dynamic of our career changes and others would be motivated to do the same. ... and it snowballs from there.

I don't have all the details, but i know what isn't working and i'm tired of the excuses about why a national list can't work. We will all continue to lose leverage until we can change companies w/o starting completely over.

 

[waveflyer]

delete double post

 

[weasel_lips]

Kerosene,

.

In this case, the arbitrator gave the advantage to the West pilots when he ran into those gray areas. He did this because the west had the brighter future and more promising business model.

Brighter future? Promising business model?

Thanks for the laughs this morning!

 

[Lear70]

Interesting thread.

Some valid questions, some great answers, then some mud slinging, then some rational conversation...

I don't think I've ever seen a thread go off on a bashing tangent and ever come back to rational discussion, excellent job!

Maybe it's the Christmas spirit... hope you guys can work it out, the UAir guys seem pretty ready to burn it down (and I can't say I blame them).

 

[TWA Dude]

2 questions for you guys:

1.) Did the list get delivered to Parker yesterday? Yes

What was the outcome? Nothing

2.) Is there any chance that your management (Parker/Kirby) would operate seperate ops? No

 

[737 Pylt]

1.) Did the list get delivered to Parker yesterday? Yes

What was the outcome? Nothing

2.) Is there any chance that your management (Parker/Kirby) would operate seperate ops? No

Thanks for the answers!

737

 

[TWA Dude]

What you gained in the merger is access to retirement seats, most of which are left seats that AWA did not bring to the table.

Once again, Nicolau made his decision and neither pilot neutral disagreed. This is how he interpreted "career expectations". You're free to disagree with Nicolau's logic but you mustn't forget your side willingly entitled him to make this decision.

And that is the core problem the east guys have with the nic award.

Sorry, but the core problem with the East is the sense of entitlement. And even though a neutral arbitrator made his decision you feel it's okay to go nuclear to circumvent it. The West didn't create this problem yet you expect us to fix it?

.. that is why they will probably kill the airline before they relent on this item.

Right. That's called extortion. Y'all want the West to unilaterally concede seniority or else you'll put us all out of a job. So what if we call your bluff? You'll get to say "we showed 'em" at your next airline interview(s). A Pyrrhic victory.

If the AWA guys were to go for this I can guarantee that the rank and file east pilot would have zero problems with it.

Well, since you put it that way I'm sure we'll all go for it. (read sarcasm) Tell me honestly, why in the world should the West concede seniority to the East? A true negotiation involves give and take. You just want take. How can you reconcile this unethical behavior?

 

[Lampshade]

We have the binding arbitration
We have a better contract
We have a lower average age group
We aren't giving any conssessions


We can wait it out. See you in 2009.