US Airways Contract Projections

[cactusboy53]

The west already flies 24% of east flying. So I guess that provision is checked...
Must suck sitting on the sidelines watching the east recapture its attrition.. Whadda ya say westies..Lets get a joint CBA, your DFR suit will then be ripe, then you guys/gals have a shot at winning the mystical award called Nic.
Things are moving quite fast. In two years there will be low hanging fruit for EVERYONE!! Lets ger er done..
..If not, just remember that time is on OUR side..

uhm...we were doing transcons PRIOR to tying up to the Titanic. There is NO MORE EAST FLYING. There is no more west flying. That was over 6 years ago (let it go, dude).

So.....your bragging about how great it now making LESS than some regional pilots? You are pleased with your actions to remain on BANKRUPTCY wages while Dug plays you like a well worn Charlie Daniels fiddle and whipsaws you against the PHX pilots??

There are some websites that tout how they are instructing new hires to vote with them, and they will be CAPTAINS in 4-5 years (albiet on laughable wages). After reading ALL of the legal documents and filings you somehow think that you will ultimately STILL be able to evade the Nicolau seniority list (yes, WE ALL KNOW how you have won the battle of DELAY)?? Really? Logic & law don't seem to indicate that is a possiblity (let alone a probability).

The 9th said you can negotiate, but with peril. Judge Silver echoed those same warnings.

I believe that the Nicolau seniority list will be used ultimately. That is based on reading prior related legal documents, case law, our legal documents & filings, etc. The shame is the complete loss of income, time off & contract improvements that we will all have lost.

The PHX based pilots have done nothing wrong. We have been placed in a position of defending our seniority rights against a larger body of pilots. We have been forced to defend ourselves againt OUR union from RICO charges, false charges of ID theft, etc. The entire commercial aviation community watches as USAPA and USAPA supporters continue to attempt to crush our will, our resources and our spirt. We are the David to USAPA's GOLIATH, and we all know what happened to Goliath.

We didn't start this, but we will finish it. SYIC-A

 

[Bringupthebird]

USAPA doesn't seem to understand that the only things any court has given any opinion allowing latitude on are PROPOSALS. Once something is ratified, then a court can compare demonstrated actions against the rule of law.

The NMB needs to fully investigate USAPA and their failure to negotiate in good faith.

 

[Carl S.]

USAPA is just driving the EAST pilots down a dead end, but that is where the majority wants to go, so we are going along for the ride... The final outcome is 99.9% probable the use of the NIC., but enjoy seperate ops. and the bitter pill of LOA93 till something else happens...I am in for the lifestyle and easy money and nice domicles, no commuting...life is short, enjoy it...

P.S.- Every East jumpseater I run into on transcon commutes are the most bitter, angry old pilots I never want to be like...

 

[Flybywire44]

Anecdotal info.. Over the last 12 months our Bid Announcements show 3 FOs resigned. No info if they were all newhires or why they left.

This could be for any number of reasons... E.g. poor health or performance on probation etc.

 

[Turtle21]

This could be for any number of reasons... E.g. poor health or performance on probation etc.

Word is one went to FedEx. No word on the other two. Extremely small number any way you slice it.

 

[LaGarbage Man]

........

 

[Flybywire44]

Word is one went to FedEx. No word on the other two. Extremely small number any way you slice it.

One who has health issues.

 

[Bringupthebird]

P.S.- Every East jumpseater I run into on transcon commutes are the most bitter, angry old pilots I never want to be like...

Sounds like someone I'd deny a jumpseat to.

 

[reepicheep]

Any prospective new-hire should carefully look over the MOU to determine whether or not they will have any furlough protection before leaving their higher paying regional job.

Do you really want to go over the fiscal log flume in a log built by USAPA?

Add to that - study your history. New hires in the late 80's, late 90's, and mid 00's were all brought on board amid talk of 5-year upgrades and how usair has finally got itself turned around. All saw furloughs as the company bled red ink and flirted with, or filed, CH. 11 in the next downturn. The company is mildly profitable during an industry "up" period while enjoying a huge labor cost advantage compared to it's rivals. What would Airways' financial picture be if they were paying industry standard? The heart of the company is still the old short-haul regional east-coast network that carries with it the highest CASM in the industry......what is going to happen in the next downturn (and there will be one despite talk of how the airlines have finally fixed themselves; they say that iduring every profitable cycle.)

 

[Turtle21]

?? We (both pilot groups & the company) agreed to a TA & the merger process lined out in ALPA merger policy. The AAA MEC chose Geo. Nicolau as the mediator / arbitrator. He delivered the seniority list following testimony & law. That list is final and binding on all parties. Changing the union name to evade said seniority list is legally, morally & ethically wrong.

How & why should the PHX base pilots "negotiate" with people that have no integrity. How do we now trust the promise that the next agreement will be honored vs. the last agreement? What would be "dumb" is to negotiate with terrorists.

Sorry. Not buying. The Nicolau seniority list is the middle ground. It is the compromise. It IS the only legal seniority list that is sitting on Dug's desk.

We'll wait for the courts to make the final judgement (since LCC mangagement is incapable of actual leadership with regard to this subject matter). USAPA should IMMEDIATELY make Dug accept the DOH (or DOH-lite) seniority list with a new contract. Then we can move this along to the second DFR lawsuit.

Let's get this train out of the station and move on!

Every Lawyer loves to win and retain new clients by listening to the client's woes. The lawyer presents himself as someone will listens and records all the wrongs and damages their client has suffered, and promises to go to court to punish those evil perpetrators to recover justice. Think ambulance chaser…. Then reality sinks in and the lawyer starts to shift the strategy from "What is right and wrong" to simply "What is reality. What will it cost you to be right, and get nothing for a return on your investment?" Clients can settle or they can keep paying. Think about divorce court. The lawyers stop fighting when the estranged spouses run out of money.

Eventually all litigants have to deal with the cost of reality as it is rather than how they wish it to be in the future, based on how they see right and wrong.

The reality is that discussions of right and wrong regarding the Nic have run their course and have no impact on reality for USAir pilots. Its been argued to the SCOTUS and the courts won't even have a hearing over it. Nada, nothing. Meanwhile the passage of time is a reality that is having a HUGE impact and every pilot sees it plain as day. Bid 13-1 couldn't be clearer. The West is stagnant. The East is hiring. Doug was clear that he won't even replace West retirees. Attrition from both East and West is being replaced by new hires to the East. Thats reality. Five A330s replacing five B737s. Reality. The East is experiencing pay raises and improvements to their quality of life. Right and wrong have no impact. It is happening. Meanwhile the West can keep track of all the wrongs and their lawyers can tabulate the hundreds of millions of dollars that they will win. Just like the pilots at Republic, Eastern, TWA, etc. etc. etc. Or heck, just like the USAir pilots chasing their lost pension. The lawyers will take our gold and silver and trade us promises of utopia just around the next bend.

Reality. What is it costing the West to be right? Sure, you can counter that it is costing the East to be right, but we are getting an ROI with each new bid. Right or wrong.

Your lawyers should be honest with all the pilots about reality. If they aren't then you as a West BPR rep should be. With the release of bid 13-01 you can be sure some of the pilots are hearing reality loud and clear. With each passing bid more pilots will start to figure it out even if you don't tell them first.

No matter what happens, sooner or later it ends in a settlement, after folks start talking to each other.

Carry on however you see fit.

Cheers

 

[Bringupthebird]

How many folks are moving to a higher paying position as a direct result of the new bid? How many are not moving to a higher paying position due to seat lock or the upward movement doesn't get them out of their current position?

Do you feel that the benefit to those who are enjoying $$ producing movement outweighs the negative effects on every other pilot, especially when the NIC would have produced an equal movement for virtually every pilot (aside from the ex-furloughees/MDA who are reaping an obscene windfall)?

For the vast majority of pilots, the NIC made a single-digit percentage difference in their relative position, so while the east may howl about the grizzled veteran being placed by the new-hire, the truth is that most folk's upgrades were not going to be materially affected by the NIC. Yes they would have to wait for a short additional time, but that time would have passed by now. So enjoy your upgrade into FO industry wages. Eventually those who are currently feeding at the trough (at the expense of everyone else) will be looking for more money to go with their additional stripe and the NIC will be waiting. The courts have not weighed in on the NIC because they feel a ratified contract is necessary to prove damages. The only damages that a court could reasonably expect to hand out would be against the USAPA pilots not named in the West Class. That would be YOU!

 

[Bringupthebird]

No matter what happens, sooner or later it ends in a settlement, after folks start talking to each other.

So you're saying eventually the courts will say "Binding Arbitration really isn't worth anything". That's what you are expecting to see in a settlement?

Really?

The west will eventually make their way into the Check Airmen positions. We're big on Memory Items for a reason!:laugh:

 

[Turtle21]

How many folks are moving to a higher paying position as a direct result of the new bid?

West pilots, Zero.

East Pilots:

141 new captain awards on A330, 767, 737, 320
181 New FO bids
98 New FOs on A330, 767
Untold numbers of people getting off reserve across all types

 

[reepicheep]

They're right......USAPA was formed not to get a DOH list but simply to delay implementation of the Nic. at all cots. So far it's a home run. The east pilots knew what Airways' high costs were gonna do to the west - just like PSA and Piedmont before them. They also knew that scheduling efficiencies tend to favor using east coast crews just like at other airlines. They knew what would happen once attrition and a little growth kicked in. Sometimes the bad guys win.

 

[Turtle21]

They're right......USAPA was formed not to get a DOH list but simply to delay implementation of the Nic. at all cots. So far it's a home run. The east pilots knew what Airways' high costs were gonna do to the west - just like PSA and Piedmont before them. They also knew that scheduling efficiencies tend to favor using east coast crews just like at other airlines. They knew what would happen once attrition and a little growth kicked in. Sometimes the bad guys win.

The time for pointing fingers of who is right and wrong is past. It has't helped anything and it won't get West pilots a seat on the the attrition train. Former Piedmont and PSA pilots are doing just fine with their DOH.

 

[Flybywire44]

West pilots, Zero.

East Pilots:

141 new captain awards on A330, 767, 737, 320
181 New FO bids
98 New FOs on A330, 767
Untold numbers of people getting off reserve across all types

Just wait till the May bid posts.

 

[Turtle21]

Just wait till the May bid posts.

The West or East May bid?

If I were a West pilot I would be telling my West BPR reps to start talking with the other reps to change the CB&L DOH to LOS, yesterday.

 

[zymotic]

This latest bid had 29 retirements. A relatively low number compared to what's coming. Of those retirements, 25 were Captains and only 4 F/O's...

Also this bid has 96 Captain vacancies (only 9 in the 190). So those old F/O's are all upgrading. And the F/O's right behind them are moving into the 75/76 and the 330 positions. All those F/O positions pay more than any West equipment. So almost 100 new Captains and massive movement into the widebodies... That's just on ONE bid! Many more bids to come soon, probably with even greater movement...

So I think we are ok with separate ops... Even Dave Odell is on the Airbus in DCA with over 179 pilots below him company wide. Add to that the 133 un-filled positions on this bid and he will have 312 pilots below him by March. He missed the 767 by 44 numbers. The next bid could see him flying to Europe in a 767, something not available to him in PHX. And that is on a 2008 DOH. I'm sure he would like a DOH seniority list to move him up to a 2005 DOH. But ya never know...

Perhaps you are OK with LOA 93. I'm still an airbus F/O on reserve making about 30K less than my counterpart at Delta with 7 days of vacation. I couldn't even make as much as a Delta 320 F/O if I was on the 330 and no amount of attrition will even get me to two weeks of vacation for years to come.

 

[LaGarbage Man]

Hey Z what you doing lurking here. Waiting for the game to start ?

 

[zymotic]

Hey Z what you doing lurking here. Waiting for the game to start ?

I don't have cable or satellite so no MNF for me. Perhaps I'll get it when I get paid what other airline pilots make.