US Airways Contract Projections

[Dornier 335]

Now that it's clear that USAPA hasn't delivered and can't deliver, are you ready to put adults in charge? Sign the card.

What has the previous union delivered? Oh wait! Airline Pilot. It was also about Captain Soandso who went to thisandthis meeting and blablabla.

Question here is, blame the players or the game?

 

[Flybywire44]

It was just one bid. The first bid of at least four this year. The quality of life improvements and pay raises available for pilots is more likely in the 15-20% range when you see that an average of 20-30 pilots on each fleet type at each base, as Capt & FO moved from Res to Line, a significant increase in pay and quality of life. On the next bid Dave Odell will get a pay raise as he moves to a line holder on the AB320. The next bid is scheduled for May and more large improvements will occur in another wave.

These changes should be available for all USAir pilots to bid on.

You should not be using line pilot names on this forum.

 

[Bringupthebird]

What has the previous union delivered? Oh wait! Airline Pilot. It was also about Captain Soandso who went to thisandthis meeting and blablabla.

Perhaps you were in the bathroom and hadn't heard, but they gave you the highest payrates you'll ever have seen.

They got you the pension you chose to give away inorder to retain your meager paychecks.

They gave you relevance at the bargaining table.

They gave you a top tier VP position when you were only a warmed over regional airline.

They gave you protection from being held personally and criminally liable in accidents (which you had plenty).

They gave you real aeromedical help, not some ad in the back of Flying Magazine

They gave you an enviable record at the grievance table (compared to USAPA which has been abysmal)

They spent a tiny fraction in legal fees compared to USAPA on a percentage basis and almost none of it was spent persecuting its own members

They were able to represent the pilots without resorting to Section 29 on 100s of pilots.

They got you a seniority integration methodology which went to arbitration and whose only flaw was that it depended on both sides behaving like adults. It had no way to predict the wacko masochistic behavior of the east.

In short they got you all the things you will never recoup. And a magazine.

For all its flaws ( and there were many, mostly due to Prater and to a lesser extent Worthe) it provided VALUE. USAPA provides hollow "victories" that the east pilots will eventually be held to account for.

 

[zymotic]

You should not be using line pilot names on this forum.

Probably not a big deal since his name is already "out there". He was the junior most pilot on the West list at the time of the merger. His name is being so much used to speak of the individual but of the significance of what spot he represents.

 

[zymotic]

The assumption that management will pass out a contract offer that can be ratified is questionable, absent some big pressure like the AA merger. Just look at the FAs.. they have no seniority dispute yet management hasn't offered them a contract that can be ratified, even with two chances. Our seniority dispute is a convenient scape goat for management but I think its misleading and diversionary. If management would actually put a reasonable offer on the table it could be ratified, but since they can't even ratify a FA contract then what reason is there to believe they intend to do any different for us, unless of course the AA merger comes into play like it did with Wolf and the United merger.

Pointing fingers at each other over the seniority dispute won't change anything, though it might make us feel good to vent. In my opinion we all need to come to the realization that reality is reality, and the right and wrong arguments don't do anything to bring about improvements for all USAir pilots. Solving the seniority dispute might not bring about a new contract offer from the company that can be ratified (as with the FAs) but at least it would make the attrition from both sides be available to bid on, for both sides, rather than the one sided situation we all now have.

The West pilots were able to negotiate a contract with Doug Parker and many sections are better than ours including vacation, pay rates, daily min credit, long rig, days off on reserve, reserve rest to name some.

 

[Carl S.]

Enjoy all the growth and movement out East, but LOA 93 is here till the East accepts what they signed up for(THE NIC.) and they feel ready to move on... Silver just rejected LCC's request to strike her ruling, so 9th here we come again, two years delay at a minimum unless USAPA accepts it's legal obligation, no one out West can compromise thanks to Bradford!!!

 

[Turtle21]

The West pilots were able to negotiate a contract with Doug Parker and many sections are better than ours including vacation, pay rates, daily min credit, long rig, days off on reserve, reserve rest to name some.

If they have some secrets to help the FAs get a better contract then they should share!

I suspect circumstances and reality have a larger influence on the outcome than do the players. The fiscal cliff next month might prove to be the biggest "opportunity" for management in a long time, and who knows if AA will be in bankruptcy for another two years--united was over three years. And now Doug might delay more with a go at the 9th, but there is the chance that Silver ate lunch a few times with the 9th to consult them before she made her decision.

 

[Turtle21]

Enjoy all the growth and movement out East, but LOA 93 is here till the East accepts what they signed up for(THE NIC.) and they feel ready to move on... Silver just rejected LCC's request to strike her ruling, so 9th here we come again, two years delay at a minimum unless USAPA accepts it's legal obligation, no one out West can compromise thanks to Bradford!!!

Frankly I don't think much will change with a resolution to the seniority dispute. Doug can delay for all manner of things. At any rate the CB&L that calls for DOH with conditions and restrictions can be amended, and any pilot can start that process. It would at least get all USAir pilots to participate in the upward movement from retirements and the training float. Or we can all plug our ears, squint our eyes, and hold our breath until we all pass out, and see where we are when we wake up.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Doug isn't delaying anything. The Kirby proposal is there and can be built upon. USAPA cannot be trusted to negotiate in good faith as demonstrated by the BPR bait and switch with the MOU. Parker will negotiate with those he can trust and that's not USAPA.

Put an enhanced Kirby w/Nic in front of the pilots and let's see what a union built from the pilot up looks like.

 

[CEO silly sap]

Its sad to read about the strength of the USAirways Pilots. The same pilots who gave away their pension, AND NOW want to investigate accounting errors.
The same pilots who let their CEO make profits over the last 3 years but have yet to get a new route/aircraft/or contract.
The pilots that argue full pay to the last day, oh we will sign that and then get mad at ALPA.
The same pilots who were getting A350s in the image of EMB190s.

Please tell us how strong you are again?

 

[B-atch]

Its sad to read about the strength of the USAirways Pilots. The same pilots who gave away their pension, AND NOW want to investigate accounting errors.
The same pilots who let their CEO make profits over the last 3 years but have yet to get a new route/aircraft/or contract.
The pilots that argue full pay to the last day, oh we will sign that and then get mad at ALPA.
The same pilots who were getting A350s in the image of EMB190s.

Please tell us how strong you are again?

Strong enough to be relevant....Enjoy your retirement..Let others fight for their cause. You got YOURS, someday we'll get ours. Its just a matter of time, and time weve got..

 

[CEO silly sap]

Faire enough my brother, fair enough.

 

[buxflyr]

Ok, so what are the projections for the new hires if there is a merger? Is there a furlough possibility?

 

[zymotic]

Strong enough to be relevant....Enjoy your retirement..Let others fight for their cause. You got YOURS, someday we'll get ours. Its just a matter of time, and time weve got..

Relevant? We are fractured in many directions, under a court injunction, and sorely lacking union talent.

You and I may have time but hundreds of pilots will soon retire under LOA 93. None of us will ever recoup the lost wages unless we get payrates significantly higher than Delta's which obviously isn't going to happen. More important, I will never recoup the precious vacation time I could have had with my family while my children are young.

 

[zymotic]

Ok, so what are the projections for the new hires if there is a merger? Is there a furlough possibility?

No one on here can do anything but speculate. There's always a furlough possibility anytime you start on the bottom of the list. Personally, I would recommend most shouldn't stay away from an opportunity to hire on with a major due to the fear of furlough. Get that seniority number and deal with the furlough when it comes. Been there and done that and it wasn't as bad as I expected.

 

[zasca]

Yeah, There is no way anyone hired in the next year will have to worry about Airways furloughing due to merger in the near term unless A: They sell all the E190's on the same day or B: AAirways goes bellyup after merger. 250 newhires a year for 5 years just to keep up with 65ers and already at min fleet size on Airways side alone. Assuming long term fences and furlough mitigation in the new CBA, not to mention how old AA is, I'd say you're pretty safe.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Yeah, There is no way anyone hired in the next year will have to worry about Airways furloughing due to merger in the near term unless A: They sell all the E190's on the same day or B: AAirways goes bellyup after merger. 250 newhires a year for 5 years just to keep up with 65ers and already at min fleet size on Airways side alone. Assuming long term fences and furlough mitigation in the new CBA, not to mention how old AA is, I'd say you're pretty safe.

Once the merger/CBA goes through and fleet minimums and block hour minimums are eliminated all bets are off. Add to that the very real possibility of a court awarding damages to the west pilot class and I would seriously look elsewhere or at least sit out the turmoil unless you are very junior at your present airline or are planning on moving to another airline once you get a few hundred hours turbojet.

The landscape is very different for furloughees today than it was 20+ years ago when I went through mine. The consolidation of airlines will make the peaks and valley of the business cycle more severe and when you are on the outside, there's less opportunities for ad hoc work to carry you over. Ask the guys that went to Vietnam or China to try and wait out the last downturn. They certainly wouldn't have gone if there was something better back in the states.

Finally, something specific to USAPA is the self-centeredness of the hardliners. Once they get their upgrade secured, they will only care about getting a contract that benefits them, regardless of the collateral damage it does to other seniority ranges. If you see USAPA being replaced with a less special-interest driven group of leaders, then there is hope that the pilots will re-unify and move forward with some degree of stability.

Otherwise, if you ignore the "Danger - Stay Out" sign you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[Crzipilot]

yes a seniority number at US is not worth the seniority number at any of the regionals which someone might be working at now. Not to mention, taking the chance of getting out of the regional and sitting at US while still putting out apps and such elsewhere to see if you can get on at the carrier of your choice etc etc. You should sit at the regional and put your apps in at SWA or DAL or UAL and not go anywhere until you get on at the major of your choice..... Because of what might happen in the future...

 

[Bringupthebird]

No, because of what has happened in the past and is continuing to happen.

 

[The Drizzle]

Add to that the very real possibility of a court awarding damages to the west pilot class......

Otherwise, if you ignore the "Danger - Stay Out" sign you have no one to blame but yourself.

More poorly veiled threats against new-hires. Preaching the evils of the East while threatening to make hostages out of the bystanders kinda makes you a scumbag.



*sigh* I remember fondly a time where "The East" was just a giant, two story chinese buffet on Long Island.