US Airways & American

[Carl S.]

The 10% rule does not apply to AAA, about 50% completly off the reservation, 25% angry but sheep following the heard and 25% have a basic or better understanding of contracts and the law and the probable outcome of this mess the East has created and we live in.

 

[cactusboy53]

Nobody walked away from anything. THe arbitration was a seniority proposal from the previous CBA WHICH IS NOW HISTORY! REally, catch a clue and get updated on things. There is no legal precedence to use an arbitrated list from a former CBA that was expelled from the property. Bottom line, DOH is coming because it is in the USAPA bylaws and AMR pilots either arbitrate or take DOH. They will take DOH any day rather than put a bunch of kids from a regional airline ahead of them on a seniority list, sanctioned by a senile arbitrator. Been there done that. not again!

Whew! And I was concerned that the USAPA koolaide had made it impossible for you to see the truth. :nuts:

Nicky, you will be served the Nicolau sans a spoonful of sugar. You're going to swallow that bitter little pill, whether you like it or not. Rage on my friend. I'll see you in Philly or CLT soon.

 

[flygirlqt]

Nobody walked away from anything. THe arbitration was a seniority proposal from the previous CBA WHICH IS NOW HISTORY! REally, catch a clue and get updated on things. There is no legal precedence to use an arbitrated list from a former CBA that was expelled from the property. Bottom line, DOH is coming because it is in the USAPA bylaws and AMR pilots either arbitrate or take DOH. They will take DOH any day rather than put a bunch of kids from a regional airline ahead of them on a seniority list, sanctioned by a senile arbitrator. Been there done that. not again!

You truly are delusional to believe this.

 

[BeCareful!]

So my buddy at AA was asking me the other day "John, if we merge, do you know how I might find a way to lose 1200 numbers to a bunch of guys younger than me, so that it will permanently destroy my earning potential? I'm looking to really screw my third wife in this upcoming divorce!"

I said, "sure, push for the Nic! You'll have tons of guys who were in flight school when you were hired at AA, who went on to Mesa and Trans States and Colgan, and they'll take all those pesky, high-tax-bracket widebody jobs. You won't have to worry about it."

He's relaxed now, lubed up and ready to give his career to y'all at the mighty, all-powerful America West Airlines where PHX rules and LAS should have ruled and Europe was just around the corner. But then, he's a "special" case.

 

[shon7]

wow. this only gets better. entertainment at its finest.

oh by the way this is from wikipedia:

US Airways Attorney Robert A. Siegel made the following statement to the court on 2/21/12 Court Document 164:
Given that the integrated seniority list was accepted by US Airways as required by the Transition Agreement, which is binding on US Airways’ pilots (whether represented by ALPA or USAPA)

The Transition Agreement established a process for integration of the seniority lists – namely, “final and binding” arbitration between the East Pilots and West Pilots “in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy.” (Sep. Stmt. [Doc. No. 156-1] at ¶¶ 10-11.) But it also created an obligation on the part of US Airways to accept the integrated seniority list generated through that agreed-upon process so long as the specified conditions were met, and it thereby created prospective substantive rights that inured to the benefit of the pilots and not just process rights. (Doc. No. 156-1 at ¶ 10.) Once ALPA (as the pilots’ representative) presented the integrated seniority list to US Airways and US Airways accepted it, if not sooner, those substantive rights materialized and were not, as USAPA would have it, a mere “tentative agreement between ALPA and US Airways on a bargaining proposal.” (Doc. No. 152 at 16:27-17:1.) Thus, even if USAPA’s proffered distinction between “substantive rights” and “process elements” had support in the RLA jurisprudence, which it does not, the Transition Agreement undeniably created “substantive rights” with respect to seniority integration and USAPA inherited that status quo when it replaced ALPA as the pilots’ representative.


now lets get the lunchroom and layover laywers present their sides of the argument.

 

[Flyer1015]

So my buddy at AA was asking me the other day "John, if we merge, do you know how I might find a way to lose 1200 numbers to a bunch of guys younger than me, so that it will permanently destroy my earning potential? I'm looking to really screw my third wife in this upcoming divorce!"

I said, "sure, push for the Nic! You'll have tons of guys who were in flight school when you were hired at AA, who went on to Mesa and Trans States and Colgan, and they'll take all those pesky, high-tax-bracket widebody jobs. You won't have to worry about it."

He's relaxed now, lubed up and ready to give his career to y'all at the mighty, all-powerful America West Airlines where PHX rules and LAS should have ruled and Europe was just around the corner. But then, he's a "special" case.

Except your buddy at AA didn't just go through two bankruptcies back-to-back and on the verge of liquidation. Quite a different story! By not accepting the Nic, you are still serving under your current twice-bankrupt-screwed contract.

AWA came around 1984, and US Air (in its form) had been around for decades and decades. A straight DOH proposal would have hosed the AWA group, and no arbitrator would have gone for that. Look at all the recent mergers, it's been a status/category method of at least some type.

Btw, even under Nic, weren't your top 500 US Air pilots still protected by being the top 500? Hardly a screw job!

 

[St. Nic]

So my buddy at AA was asking me the other day "John, if we merge, do you know how I might find a way to lose 1200 numbers to a bunch of guys younger than me, so that it will permanently destroy my earning potential? I'm looking to really screw my third wife in this upcoming divorce!"

I said, "sure, push for the Nic! You'll have tons of guys who were in flight school when you were hired at AA, who went on to Mesa and Trans States and Colgan, and they'll take all those pesky, high-tax-bracket widebody jobs. You won't have to worry about it."

He's relaxed now, lubed up and ready to give his career to y'all at the mighty, all-powerful America West Airlines where PHX rules and LAS should have ruled and Europe was just around the corner. But then, he's a "special" case.

Well Said!!!

 

[St. Nic]

Except your buddy at AA didn't just go through two bankruptcies back-to-back and on the verge of liquidation. Quite a different story! By not accepting the Nic, you are still serving under your current twice-bankrupt-screwed contract.

AWA came around 1984, and US Air (in its form) had been around for decades and decades. A straight DOH proposal would have hosed the AWA group, and no arbitrator would have gone for that. Look at all the recent mergers, it's been a status/category method of at least some type.

Btw, even under Nic, weren't your top 500 US Air pilots still protected by being the top 500? Hardly a screw job!

Apples and Oranges, my friend. What you want to ignore and what you forget is the fairness of integrating by time served. You want to leapfrog your fellow pilots under the excuse of "well, you were going bankrupt so your just lucky to have a job". I say BS!!! AMR will want nothing with your bid to get another lottery ticket! I have friends there and they are well aware of the nic fiasco and you westies and how you operate

 

[CRAWDADDY]

abolish seniority.
progression based on merit only.

Pipe dream. The ideal airline pilot flies his whole career without having to prove his ability. Do the airlines want their pax to conclude that the guys flying the MD80s are just not as good as those flying the 747s?

 

[Whine Lover]

" The ideal airline pilot flies his whole career without having to prove his ability."

I guess all those sim and check rides for the past 25 years have just been "pipe dreams". (?)

So, I got that going for me. Which is nice...


YKW

 

[Turtle21]

wow. this only gets better. entertainment at its finest.

oh by the way this is from wikipedia:

US Airways Attorney Robert A. Siegel made the following statement to the court on 2/21/12 Court Document 164:
Given that the integrated seniority list was accepted by US Airways as required by the Transition Agreement, which is binding on US Airways’ pilots (whether represented by ALPA or USAPA)

The Transition Agreement established a process for integration of the seniority lists – namely, “final and binding” arbitration between the East Pilots and West Pilots “in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy.” (Sep. Stmt. [Doc. No. 156-1] at ¶¶ 10-11.) But it also created an obligation on the part of US Airways to accept the integrated seniority list generated through that agreed-upon process so long as the specified conditions were met, and it thereby created prospective substantive rights that inured to the benefit of the pilots and not just process rights. (Doc. No. 156-1 at ¶ 10.) Once ALPA (as the pilots’ representative) presented the integrated seniority list to US Airways and US Airways accepted it, if not sooner, those substantive rights materialized and were not, as USAPA would have it, a mere “tentative agreement between ALPA and US Airways on a bargaining proposal.” (Doc. No. 152 at 16:27-17:1.) Thus, even if USAPA’s proffered distinction between “substantive rights” and “process elements” had support in the RLA jurisprudence, which it does not, the Transition Agreement undeniably created “substantive rights” with respect to seniority integration and USAPA inherited that status quo when it replaced ALPA as the pilots’ representative.


now lets get the lunchroom and layover laywers present their sides of the argument.

Wikipedia..... Really?

 

[Turtle21]

St Nic,

If we do merge, USAPA will be squashed by APA. Simple numbers fact. So your USAPA bylaws will not apply. Yes, we would probably go to arbitration and it would most likely come out relative seniority (most likely the fairest way given the demographics of both companies.) What, are you guys gonna try to form ANOTHER union if you don't like the outcome? C'mon man. If you guys agree to binding arbitration, we expect you to honor that.

Hey, we are no saints, given what we did to TWA, so I don't claim to sit here and preach holier than thou. But believe me, most of us at AA realize the conditions that led to the creation of USAPA, and it ain't impressive. In fact it's lame: you guys all agreed to binding neutral arbitration, and when you didn't like the outcome, you went off and did your own thing. We won't stand for that here. APA will become the bargaining agent if we merge, and we can all move forward from there. But good luck trying to run off and from your own union. What, 5000 Easties vs 8000 AA pilots?

All speculation anyway. Let the merger be announced, then we can grab each others throats.

APA was formed because the pilots at American didn't agree with ALPA's willingness to give up the pilots on the engineer seat due to modern two pilot planes.... and you are throwing stones about the poor reasons to start a union? :lol:

(by the way, I'll give the AA pilots a pass... any reason to $h!tcan ALPA is a good reason)

 

[Guppiedriver]

Apples and Oranges, my friend. What you want to ignore and what you forget is the fairness of integrating by time served. You want to leapfrog your fellow pilots under the excuse of "well, you were going bankrupt so your just lucky to have a job". I say BS!!! AMR will want nothing with your bid to get another lottery ticket! I have friends there and they are well aware of the nic fiasco and you westies and how you operate

Tell me St. Nic, how does the west operate? Do you mean stuff like, keeping our word and following a process to the letter?

 

[Superbird]

Tell me St. Nic, how does the west operate? Do you mean stuff like, keeping our word and following a process to the letter?

He lives in a fantasy world, you're only going to confuse him.

 

[Turtle21]

Tell me St. Nic, how does the west operate? Do you mean stuff like, keeping our word and following a process to the letter?

Dear Mr. Integrity,

If the long legal battle eventually ends in a certain result that the Nic must be submitted as a portion of the CBA for a pilot ratification vote, does your integrity also support the "agreed to" stipulation that there is an independent ratification requirement from both sides (i.e. the ALPA process that provides for both sides having a veto)?

Your kind attention and honest reply is most greatly appreciated and requested for the furtherance of your most steadfast integrity.

Yours truly,

B.R.
(Binding Ratification, the most glorious tribute To our beloved ALPA, and their prized luminaries, John Prater, Duayne Woerth, and Christopher Bebe.)

 

[Guppiedriver]

Wikipedia..... Really?

Oh for crying out loud...it's a copy and paste of the documents that the Company filed with the Arizona District Court. Just to make you feel better, I did a copy and paste from the actual documents.

The Transition Agreement established
a process for integration of the seniority lists – namely, “final and binding” arbitration
between the East Pilots and West Pilots “in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy.” (Sep.
Stmt. [Doc. No. 156-1] at ¶¶ 10-11.) But it also created an obligation on the part of US
Airways to accept the integrated seniority list generated through that agreed-upon process
so long as the specified conditions were met, and it thereby created prospective
substantive rights that inured to the benefit of the pilots and not just process rights. (Doc.
No. 156-1 at ¶ 10.) Once ALPA (as the pilots’ representative) presented the integrated
seniority list to US Airways and US Airways accepted it, if not sooner, those substantive
rights materialized and were not, as USAPA would have it, a mere “tentative agreement
between ALPA and US Airways on a bargaining proposal.” (Doc. No. 152 at 16:27-
17:1.) Thus, even if USAPA’s proffered distinction between “substantive rights” and
“process elements” had support in the RLA jurisprudence, which it does not, the
Transition Agreement undeniably created “substantive rights” with respect to seniority
integration and USAPA inherited that status quo when it replaced ALPA as the pilots’
representative.​

 

[aa73]

APA was formed because the pilots at American didn't agree with ALPA's willingness to give up the pilots on the engineer seat due to modern two pilot planes.... and you are throwing stones about the poor reasons to start a union? :lol:

(by the way, I'll give the AA pilots a pass... any reason to $h!tcan ALPA is a good reason)

Here is the history of the formation of APA, for further reading: APA was formed for a good cause.

http://alliedpilots.org/Public/AboutAPA/Background/apa_the_details.asp

I don't think the same could be said for USAPA. Agree to binding neutral arbitration, then renege and form a separate union?

 

[Guppiedriver]

Dear Mr. Integrity,

If the long legal battle eventually ends in a certain result that the Nic must be submitted as a portion of the CBA for a pilot ratification vote, does your integrity also support the "agreed to" stipulation that there is an independent ratification requirement from both sides (i.e. the ALPA process that provides for both sides having a veto)?

Your kind attention and honest reply is most greatly appreciated and requested for the furtherance of your most steadfast integrity.

Yours truly,

B.R.
(Binding Ratification, the most glorious tribute To our beloved ALPA, and their prized luminaries, John Prater, Duayne Woerth, and Christopher Bebe.)

Yes, I would prefer independent ratification.

 

[Hpilot]

Hello Hpilot,

I would venture to say that APA would NOT, nor could not, cut throats and staple. That ship has sailed, sunk and no longer exists. Ours would most likely be a merger - or heck, even USAir purchasing AMR's assets, for all I know - and any integration will either be agreed upon by both parties or submitted to BINDING neutral arbitration. I'll give you this - if USAir purchases AMR's assets, I'm pretty sure I will end up as toast. Just the nature of the beast, I harbor no illusions.

And yes, we have our own fair share of delusional idiots here too. Every airline has their 10%...

Good luck to us all.

Agreed, good luck to all of us.

 

[abefly]

Nobody walked away from anything. THe arbitration was a seniority proposal from the previous CBA WHICH IS NOW HISTORY! REally, catch a clue and get updated on things. There is no legal precedence to use an arbitrated list from a former CBA that was expelled from the property. Bottom line, DOH is coming because it is in the USAPA bylaws and AMR pilots either arbitrate or take DOH. They will take DOH any day rather than put a bunch of kids from a regional airline ahead of them on a seniority list, sanctioned by a senile arbitrator. Been there done that. not again!

As set forth in US Airways’ opening brief (​

​

​

​

see Doc. No. 156 at 13:23-14:8) and its
response (see Doc. No. 164 at 7:2-10:16), the case law makes clear that the Transition
Agreement is a binding collective bargaining agreement (“CBA”) between US Airways
and its pilots, and the pilots’ selection of a new collective bargaining representative did
not affect the binding nature of their pre-existing CBAs. Indeed, even USAPA has
admitted to another federal court that “[a]s the certified, exclusive bargaining
representative of the now merged US Airways pilots, USAPA became a party to the East
CBA and West CBA . . . .” (US Airline Pilots Ass’n v. US Airways, Inc., et al., Case 1:11-
cv-02579-ARR-SMG (E.D.N.Y.) (Amended Compl. [Doc. No. 12] ¶ 22 (attached hereto​

as Exhibit A).) That principle is equally applicable in this case.

 

[abefly]

and continuing......

That said, as also noted in US Airways’ prior briefs, the case law makes clear that
either party can propose amendments to the binding Transition Agreement pursuant to the
terms of that Agreement and Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act – so long as the
amendments are consistent with USAPA’s DFR to the West Pilots. The question to be
resolved by this Court is whether the amendment to the Transition Agreement that​

USAPA is constitutionally bound to require is, or is not, consistent with its DFR.

 

[BeCareful!]

Except your buddy at AA didn't just go through two bankruptcies back-to-back and on the verge of liquidation. Quite a different story! By not accepting the Nic, you are still serving under your current twice-bankrupt-screwed contract.

Yeah, I'd like a better contract, but the fantasy that you guys have that yours is soooo much better is just laughable. AWA was always a dirt bag operation and now we work for roughly the same dirt bag compensation. So, all things considered, I disagree. By not accepting the Nic, we are standing up for what is right. Junior is junior. Date of hire governs everything right up to the point when someone says "merger." That's wrong, especially when one group receives a windfall like the West almost did.

Btw, even under Nic, weren't your top 500 US Air pilots still protected by being the top 500? Hardly a screw job!

Ah yes, the notion that treating certain pilots well at one end of the spectrum should appease pilots who were screwed at the other end. Totally insane. And, while we are talking about the top 500, who the hell did they work for, anyway? Why were their expectations so good that they weren't beaten with the same Nic billy club and their careers destroyed? I believe they were on the same payroll, but they were treated very, very differently.

The Nic is a complete piece of crap. ALPA has a lot to do with that. USAPA is doing the thankless job of correcting the injustice.

 

[Flyer1015]

Yeah, I'd like a better contract, but the fantasy that you guys have that yours is soooo much better is just laughable. AWA was always a dirt bag operation and now we work for roughly the same dirt bag compensation. So, all things considered, I disagree. By not accepting the Nic, we are standing up for what is right. Junior is junior. Date of hire governs everything right up to the point when someone says "merger." That's wrong, especially when one group receives a windfall like the West almost did.



Ah yes, the notion that treating certain pilots well at one end of the spectrum should appease pilots who were screwed at the other end. Totally insane. And, while we are talking about the top 500, who the hell did they work for, anyway? Why were their expectations so good that they weren't beaten with the same Nic billy club and their careers destroyed? I believe they were on the same payroll, but they were treated very, very differently.

The Nic is a complete piece of crap. ALPA has a lot to do with that. USAPA is doing the thankless job of correcting the injustice.

What part of "binding arbitration" did you not understand?

1. By agreeing to binding arbitration, did you really think a straight-DOH was realistic and would have been awarded as such by an arbitrator?

2. Since when does binding not equal binding in "binding arbitration"??

"By not accpeting Nic we are standing up for what is right."

Kinda hard to take the moral road of "standing up for what's right" when you walk away from a federal, binding-arbitration award, what you all agreed to.


Let me ask you, assuming that AA/AMR does not merge, where do you envision US Air/AWA in the next 3 yrs? 5 yrs? 10 yrs? By that, I mean do you see a point down the road where your true hard-core DOH gold standard guys will have retired, and the West + US Air newhires will hold majority? Mathematically, you could figure that out probably down to a month and year based on retirements alone from the East side. What do you think will happen then?

 

[Guppiedriver]

Yeah, I'd like a better contract, but the fantasy that you guys have that yours is soooo much better is just laughable. Our contract sucks, but it is better than yours. AWA was always a dirt bag operation and now we work for roughly the same dirt bag compensation. Nope, US Air was always a dirt bag operation, but you dip sh!its got a big head when Wolf gave you a raise that couldn't be sustained. So, all things considered, I disagree. By not accepting the Nic, we are standing up for what is right. No you're not, you're pussies. A man honors his obligations. Junior is junior. Yep, and under the Nic your junior guy is still junior. Date of hire governs everything right up to the point when someone says "merger." That's wrong, especially when one group receives a windfall like the West almost did. There was no windfall for the west. Every single west pilot lost senority with the Nic. Every pilot on the east gained seniority and still captures 2 out of 3 upgrades.

Ah yes, the notion that treating certain pilots well at one end of the spectrum should appease pilots who were screwed at the other end. Totally insane. And, while we are talking about the top 500, who the hell did they work for, anyway? Why were their expectations so good that they weren't beaten with the same Nic billy club and their careers destroyed? I believe they were on the same payroll, but they were treated very, very differently. They were flying wide bodies. Your side argued that they should get special treatment...Nicolau agreed.

The Nic is a complete piece of crap. ALPA has a lot to do with that. USAPA is doing the thankless job of correcting the injustice.

ALPA had nothing to do with the Nicolau Arbitration, but if blaming them gives you a warm fuzzy...OK. uSAPa is the laughing stock of the industry. Explain to me how uSAPa is correcting anything.

 

[MELVIS]

Yep, we are all waiting. Grown ups please speak up now! Binding sounds a lot like binding. Suck sounds like suck. You gave it up; you and everybody else pays. Thanks again Us airways. Delta fell too. Republic fly's for almost everybody. If it has a jet It should be at mainline!

 

[Bringupthebird]

Yes, I would prefer independent ratification.

Nope, USAPA wanted to be the double agent and has extorted thousands from me to do so. I want to see USAPA under court order to present and defend a Nic-inclusive contract. If Hummel wins I want him and Bradford to be forced to spin the Nic as a victory (which it really is, but they don't understand that) and disavow any knowledge of opposing the Nic.

Surely they will be exposed for the gutless crooks they are.

 

[cactusboy53]

Dear Mr. Integrity,

If the long legal battle eventually ends in a certain result that the Nic must be submitted as a portion of the CBA for a pilot ratification vote, does your integrity also support the "agreed to" stipulation that there is an independent ratification requirement from both sides (i.e. the ALPA process that provides for both sides having a veto)?

Your kind attention and honest reply is most greatly appreciated and requested for the furtherance of your most steadfast integrity.

Yours truly,

B.R.
(Binding Ratification, the most glorious tribute To our beloved ALPA, and their prized luminaries, John Prater, Duayne Woerth, and Christopher Bebe.)

NOPE. USAPA filed for single carrier status, thereby making it a one body vote. Just remember, USAPA will have helped to deliver the jagged little pill you call the NIC. Open wide and swallow.

Sorry. You can't have your cake and eat it too in this case (unless you're Pizza the Hut).

 

[flygirlqt]

Chew on this Usapians:


http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/Declatory_Relief/Doc173_West_Pilot_Reply_iso_Summary_Judgment.pdf

 

[St. Nic]

Chew on this Usapians:


http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/Declatory_Relief/Doc173_West_Pilot_Reply_iso_Summary_Judgment.pdf

So what? You post a link to a rag submitted by the good doctor who got smacked down by the 9th? And this is all you got? Geez you westicles are desperat

 

[flygirlqt]

So what? You post a link to a rag submitted by the good doctor who got smacked down by the 9th? And this is all you got? Geez you westicles are desperat

Reviewing this as a lawyer, I can assure you this is far from a "rag" and will most likely prove fatal to your case.

But go ahead grab some more hand lotion and kleenex so you can stroke yourself thinking about your delusional USAPA agenda. Those of your ilk are truly a stain on the profession.