US Airways & American

[Carl S.]

The 10% rule does not apply to AAA, about 50% completly off the reservation, 25% angry but sheep following the heard and 25% have a basic or better understanding of contracts and the law and the probable outcome of this mess the East has created and we live in.

 

[cactusboy53]

Nobody walked away from anything. THe arbitration was a seniority proposal from the previous CBA WHICH IS NOW HISTORY! REally, catch a clue and get updated on things. There is no legal precedence to use an arbitrated list from a former CBA that was expelled from the property. Bottom line, DOH is coming because it is in the USAPA bylaws and AMR pilots either arbitrate or take DOH. They will take DOH any day rather than put a bunch of kids from a regional airline ahead of them on a seniority list, sanctioned by a senile arbitrator. Been there done that. not again!

Whew! And I was concerned that the USAPA koolaide had made it impossible for you to see the truth. :nuts:

Nicky, you will be served the Nicolau sans a spoonful of sugar. You're going to swallow that bitter little pill, whether you like it or not. Rage on my friend. I'll see you in Philly or CLT soon.

 

[flygirlqt]

Nobody walked away from anything. THe arbitration was a seniority proposal from the previous CBA WHICH IS NOW HISTORY! REally, catch a clue and get updated on things. There is no legal precedence to use an arbitrated list from a former CBA that was expelled from the property. Bottom line, DOH is coming because it is in the USAPA bylaws and AMR pilots either arbitrate or take DOH. They will take DOH any day rather than put a bunch of kids from a regional airline ahead of them on a seniority list, sanctioned by a senile arbitrator. Been there done that. not again!

You truly are delusional to believe this.

 

[BeCareful!]

So my buddy at AA was asking me the other day "John, if we merge, do you know how I might find a way to lose 1200 numbers to a bunch of guys younger than me, so that it will permanently destroy my earning potential? I'm looking to really screw my third wife in this upcoming divorce!"

I said, "sure, push for the Nic! You'll have tons of guys who were in flight school when you were hired at AA, who went on to Mesa and Trans States and Colgan, and they'll take all those pesky, high-tax-bracket widebody jobs. You won't have to worry about it."

He's relaxed now, lubed up and ready to give his career to y'all at the mighty, all-powerful America West Airlines where PHX rules and LAS should have ruled and Europe was just around the corner. But then, he's a "special" case.

 

[shon7]

wow. this only gets better. entertainment at its finest.

oh by the way this is from wikipedia:

US Airways Attorney Robert A. Siegel made the following statement to the court on 2/21/12 Court Document 164:
Given that the integrated seniority list was accepted by US Airways as required by the Transition Agreement, which is binding on US Airways’ pilots (whether represented by ALPA or USAPA)

The Transition Agreement established a process for integration of the seniority lists – namely, “final and binding” arbitration between the East Pilots and West Pilots “in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy.” (Sep. Stmt. [Doc. No. 156-1] at ¶¶ 10-11.) But it also created an obligation on the part of US Airways to accept the integrated seniority list generated through that agreed-upon process so long as the specified conditions were met, and it thereby created prospective substantive rights that inured to the benefit of the pilots and not just process rights. (Doc. No. 156-1 at ¶ 10.) Once ALPA (as the pilots’ representative) presented the integrated seniority list to US Airways and US Airways accepted it, if not sooner, those substantive rights materialized and were not, as USAPA would have it, a mere “tentative agreement between ALPA and US Airways on a bargaining proposal.” (Doc. No. 152 at 16:27-17:1.) Thus, even if USAPA’s proffered distinction between “substantive rights” and “process elements” had support in the RLA jurisprudence, which it does not, the Transition Agreement undeniably created “substantive rights” with respect to seniority integration and USAPA inherited that status quo when it replaced ALPA as the pilots’ representative.


now lets get the lunchroom and layover laywers present their sides of the argument.

 

[Flyer1015]

So my buddy at AA was asking me the other day "John, if we merge, do you know how I might find a way to lose 1200 numbers to a bunch of guys younger than me, so that it will permanently destroy my earning potential? I'm looking to really screw my third wife in this upcoming divorce!"

I said, "sure, push for the Nic! You'll have tons of guys who were in flight school when you were hired at AA, who went on to Mesa and Trans States and Colgan, and they'll take all those pesky, high-tax-bracket widebody jobs. You won't have to worry about it."

He's relaxed now, lubed up and ready to give his career to y'all at the mighty, all-powerful America West Airlines where PHX rules and LAS should have ruled and Europe was just around the corner. But then, he's a "special" case.

Except your buddy at AA didn't just go through two bankruptcies back-to-back and on the verge of liquidation. Quite a different story! By not accepting the Nic, you are still serving under your current twice-bankrupt-screwed contract.

AWA came around 1984, and US Air (in its form) had been around for decades and decades. A straight DOH proposal would have hosed the AWA group, and no arbitrator would have gone for that. Look at all the recent mergers, it's been a status/category method of at least some type.

Btw, even under Nic, weren't your top 500 US Air pilots still protected by being the top 500? Hardly a screw job!

 

[St. Nic]

So my buddy at AA was asking me the other day "John, if we merge, do you know how I might find a way to lose 1200 numbers to a bunch of guys younger than me, so that it will permanently destroy my earning potential? I'm looking to really screw my third wife in this upcoming divorce!"

I said, "sure, push for the Nic! You'll have tons of guys who were in flight school when you were hired at AA, who went on to Mesa and Trans States and Colgan, and they'll take all those pesky, high-tax-bracket widebody jobs. You won't have to worry about it."

He's relaxed now, lubed up and ready to give his career to y'all at the mighty, all-powerful America West Airlines where PHX rules and LAS should have ruled and Europe was just around the corner. But then, he's a "special" case.

Well Said!!!

 

[St. Nic]

Except your buddy at AA didn't just go through two bankruptcies back-to-back and on the verge of liquidation. Quite a different story! By not accepting the Nic, you are still serving under your current twice-bankrupt-screwed contract.

AWA came around 1984, and US Air (in its form) had been around for decades and decades. A straight DOH proposal would have hosed the AWA group, and no arbitrator would have gone for that. Look at all the recent mergers, it's been a status/category method of at least some type.

Btw, even under Nic, weren't your top 500 US Air pilots still protected by being the top 500? Hardly a screw job!

Apples and Oranges, my friend. What you want to ignore and what you forget is the fairness of integrating by time served. You want to leapfrog your fellow pilots under the excuse of "well, you were going bankrupt so your just lucky to have a job". I say BS!!! AMR will want nothing with your bid to get another lottery ticket! I have friends there and they are well aware of the nic fiasco and you westies and how you operate

 

[CRAWDADDY]

abolish seniority.
progression based on merit only.

Pipe dream. The ideal airline pilot flies his whole career without having to prove his ability. Do the airlines want their pax to conclude that the guys flying the MD80s are just not as good as those flying the 747s?

 

[Whine Lover]

" The ideal airline pilot flies his whole career without having to prove his ability."

I guess all those sim and check rides for the past 25 years have just been "pipe dreams". (?)

So, I got that going for me. Which is nice...


YKW

 

[Turtle21]

wow. this only gets better. entertainment at its finest.

oh by the way this is from wikipedia:

US Airways Attorney Robert A. Siegel made the following statement to the court on 2/21/12 Court Document 164:
Given that the integrated seniority list was accepted by US Airways as required by the Transition Agreement, which is binding on US Airways’ pilots (whether represented by ALPA or USAPA)

The Transition Agreement established a process for integration of the seniority lists – namely, “final and binding” arbitration between the East Pilots and West Pilots “in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy.” (Sep. Stmt. [Doc. No. 156-1] at ¶¶ 10-11.) But it also created an obligation on the part of US Airways to accept the integrated seniority list generated through that agreed-upon process so long as the specified conditions were met, and it thereby created prospective substantive rights that inured to the benefit of the pilots and not just process rights. (Doc. No. 156-1 at ¶ 10.) Once ALPA (as the pilots’ representative) presented the integrated seniority list to US Airways and US Airways accepted it, if not sooner, those substantive rights materialized and were not, as USAPA would have it, a mere “tentative agreement between ALPA and US Airways on a bargaining proposal.” (Doc. No. 152 at 16:27-17:1.) Thus, even if USAPA’s proffered distinction between “substantive rights” and “process elements” had support in the RLA jurisprudence, which it does not, the Transition Agreement undeniably created “substantive rights” with respect to seniority integration and USAPA inherited that status quo when it replaced ALPA as the pilots’ representative.


now lets get the lunchroom and layover laywers present their sides of the argument.

Wikipedia..... Really?

 

[Turtle21]

St Nic,

If we do merge, USAPA will be squashed by APA. Simple numbers fact. So your USAPA bylaws will not apply. Yes, we would probably go to arbitration and it would most likely come out relative seniority (most likely the fairest way given the demographics of both companies.) What, are you guys gonna try to form ANOTHER union if you don't like the outcome? C'mon man. If you guys agree to binding arbitration, we expect you to honor that.

Hey, we are no saints, given what we did to TWA, so I don't claim to sit here and preach holier than thou. But believe me, most of us at AA realize the conditions that led to the creation of USAPA, and it ain't impressive. In fact it's lame: you guys all agreed to binding neutral arbitration, and when you didn't like the outcome, you went off and did your own thing. We won't stand for that here. APA will become the bargaining agent if we merge, and we can all move forward from there. But good luck trying to run off and from your own union. What, 5000 Easties vs 8000 AA pilots?

All speculation anyway. Let the merger be announced, then we can grab each others throats.

APA was formed because the pilots at American didn't agree with ALPA's willingness to give up the pilots on the engineer seat due to modern two pilot planes.... and you are throwing stones about the poor reasons to start a union? :lol:

(by the way, I'll give the AA pilots a pass... any reason to $h!tcan ALPA is a good reason)

 

[Guppiedriver]

Apples and Oranges, my friend. What you want to ignore and what you forget is the fairness of integrating by time served. You want to leapfrog your fellow pilots under the excuse of "well, you were going bankrupt so your just lucky to have a job". I say BS!!! AMR will want nothing with your bid to get another lottery ticket! I have friends there and they are well aware of the nic fiasco and you westies and how you operate

Tell me St. Nic, how does the west operate? Do you mean stuff like, keeping our word and following a process to the letter?

 

[Superbird]

Tell me St. Nic, how does the west operate? Do you mean stuff like, keeping our word and following a process to the letter?

He lives in a fantasy world, you're only going to confuse him.

 

[Turtle21]

Tell me St. Nic, how does the west operate? Do you mean stuff like, keeping our word and following a process to the letter?

Dear Mr. Integrity,

If the long legal battle eventually ends in a certain result that the Nic must be submitted as a portion of the CBA for a pilot ratification vote, does your integrity also support the "agreed to" stipulation that there is an independent ratification requirement from both sides (i.e. the ALPA process that provides for both sides having a veto)?

Your kind attention and honest reply is most greatly appreciated and requested for the furtherance of your most steadfast integrity.

Yours truly,

B.R.
(Binding Ratification, the most glorious tribute To our beloved ALPA, and their prized luminaries, John Prater, Duayne Woerth, and Christopher Bebe.)