United

[koko nw]

Did you ever wear one of those "TORQUE" pins? You know, the ones I used to see on so many UAL guys while they would lecture the CAL pilots to "fall on our swords for the good of the industry".

Employed at UAL since 98, NEVER even heard of "TORQUE" pins, please enlighten me.

You know Boeingman, these yarns are starting to sound like high school football stories, the one UAL A-hole turns into 5 then 20 then all of sudden it's the " So many UAL Pilots would lecture us".

 

[Boeingman]

Employed at UAL since 98, NEVER even heard of "TORQUE" pins, please enlighten me.

Ask a few of your senior comrades (at least those with the integrity may mention or admit) about the underground TORQUE campaign against CAL (during the 2nd bk) in the early 90's. It stood for Try Our Real Quality United Experience. A large group of UAL employees (mainly in Denver) were wearing pins with a screw going through the CAL logo. Your pilots and agents would pull our customers out of ticket lines and offer them lower fares on UAL, pilots were slowing down on the runway to force go arounds. Pilots would make comments about safety on CAL to our passengers etc. etc.

United in the capacity as a corporation, nor did any of our "brother" unions make any attempt to stop this individual behavior. Is that enough enlightenment for you?

You know Boeingman, these yarns are starting to sound like high school football stories, the one UAL A-hole turns into 5 then 20 then all of sudden it's the " So many UAL Pilots would lecture us".

Honestly, I don't care what you think of my perception or recollection of events before your time at UAL. I was there first hand to live through and experience numerous unprofessional acts and childish opinionated comments from far more than just "one" UAL pilot about CAL.

I just wish I could meet this "One UAL A-hole" you mentioned. Judging by these other posts and my memory, he sure did make a lot of lousy first impressions.

 

[Boeingman]

My guess is you will have a different outlook when it happens to you. With the way this industry goes, you are going to be fortunate, and I hope you are, for CAL not to go Ch11 for the 3rd time.

Not at all. If these brilliant MBA's running these airlines knew they wouldn't be let off the hook with these pension plans, they would take better financial care in planning their funding. Especially knowing the balance sheet would take a hit in a pension default.

Who knows what this industry will bring. All of us are one terrorist incident away from either a 7 or an 11 filing. I think CAL will make it though. For me, it is a moot point whether we fail or survive. I learned a long time ago never to rely on an airline for your income or retirement. But I appreciate the comment.

 

[koko nw]

Thank you for the lesson in regards to the Torque program, really. I had no idea.

"United in the capacity as a corporation, nor did any of our "brother" unions make any attempt to stop this individual behavior. Is that enough enlightenment for you?"

Just like when your late CEO compared us to the AIDS epidemic and should be eradicated? Where where your outcries for your brothers after that blasemous statement against your "brothers"?

Come on we all have blood on our hands, it's in the eye of the heholder who is of lessor sin.

"Honestly, I don't care what you think of my perception or recollection of events before your time at UAL. I was there first hand to live through and experience numerous unprofessional acts and childish opinionated comments from far more than just "one" UAL pilot about CAL. "

I can't and will not speak for them, if your accounts are true, then shame on them.

Tailwinds to you Mr. Boeingman.

 

[Boeingman]

Thank you for the lesson in regards to the Torque program, really. I had no idea.

No problem and sorry for my bitchy reply. It brings back a lot of bad memories and I find it difficult initially to remember not everyone fits into the mold of others. With my advancing age I should not assume everyone is aware of the past sins and transgressions of their peers from years past.

Just like when your late CEO compared us to the AIDS epidemic and should be eradicated? Where where your outcries for your brothers after that blasemous statement against your "brothers"?

I agree it was completely uncalled for, yet for the rank and file it is much more difficult to stem hot air or slanderous actions from the CEO than vis versa down the corporate food chain.

Come on we all have blood on our hands, it's in the eye of the heholder who is of lessor sin.

Agreed and point taken.

I can't and will not speak for them, if your accounts are true, then shame on them.

People reap what they sow. I thought about those times quite often watching UAL over the last several years. My conclusion is always that in the end everyone gets hurt. Even the arrogant idiots that wished ill upon others are victims because no one wins in these situations. My only hope is those that acted in an immature manner will reflect back and realize how unprofessional and arrogant they sounded.

Tailwinds to you Mr. Boeingman.

To you as well.

 

[AA717driver]

Agreed, United pilots caused the demise of these airlines. We also turned our backs on all orphans, WWII veterans, and battered housewifes. Its that UAL pilot that B6Driver flew with in 1991 and Oldxfr8dog remembers - he is the ringleader and it is certainly intelligent to lump the whole group together.

I didn't say the UAL pilots CAUSED the demise of these airlines (the respective causes are well documented). I just said the UAL (and AA, DAL and USAir) pilots stood on the sidelines cheering as it happened. Did ALL of those airlines' pilots hope for and cheer on the demise? No. But the vast
majority did at least exhibit benign indifference for the plight of their fellow pilots.

We are simply returning the favor. And, I guess I should be asking Airbusnut 'who the hell is he' to expect any of us to give a crap about HIS career? Again, just returning the favor.

Like I said, suck it up, stop snivelling and get your resume together--just like thousands of others have had to do in the past 15 years or so.TC

 

[skykid]

I just said the UAL (and AA, DAL and USAir) pilots stood on the sidelines cheering as it happened. Did ALL of those airlines' pilots hope for and cheer on the demise? No. But the vast
majority did at least exhibit benign indifference for the plight of their fellow pilots.

That is the most stupid and uninformed statement I've seen to date on this forum, and that is saying a lot. You are now returning a "favor?" You have problems.

 

[G4G5]

Agreed. However with Billions in assets still on hand, UAL (or any other company) should be forced to liquidate such assets to fund their pension obligations prior to an outright default.

The bankruptcy laws need a major rewrite for this as pension underfunding will mirror the the S&L crisis of the 80's. The way it is now, only the employees (i.e. peons) get screwed.

Agreed, and in esence I believe that is what congres tried to tell Tilton. In the case of United, pensions were underfunded by around $9.8 billion. The PBGC would have covered around $6.6 billion of the obligations, now they can make up the difference with UAL assets. If the pensions were dumped onto the PBGC like UAL wanted, then the PBGC would not be eligable to recoupe a dime from liquidation. Congress told all of the other majors and companies like GM, that your pension debts will not just disapear unter CH11.

What's amazing to me is the fact that Tilton actually thought that he could just dump almost $7 BILLION of under funded ension debt on the US tax payer and get away with it. What's even more amazing is now that he can't do it, he doesn't have a plan B.

 

[semperfido]

Simply put, wouldn't it be a better overall answer for United to simply fold rather than set a precedent of pension raiding to overcome bankruptcy? .

YES

free market--level field---swim or sink----no help from gov't--- join the club buddy

 

[Dangerkitty]

The days of a healthy A AND B fund are gone forever.

There is no such thing as an unhealthy B fund. If terminated you still get the money deposited into your portfolio. Unlike the A-fund when a deposit is made the money is yours and cannot be touched by the company.

 

[jbDC9]

That is the most stupid and uninformed statement I've seen to date on this forum, and that is saying a lot. You are now returning a "favor?" You have problems.

Actually skykid, I'd say AA717 is right on the money. "I just said the UAL (and AA, DAL and USAir) pilots stood on the sidelines cheering as it happened. Did ALL of those airlines' pilots hope for and cheer on the demise? No. But the vast majority did at least exhibit benign indifference for the plight of their fellow pilots." How is that stupid and uninformed? You don't think that when Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am and TWA were on their downhill slides that the pilots at AA, UA, DL, etc. weren't salivating over the thoughts of how their individual airlines and careers could benefit by picking up the pieces (slots, routes, aircraft, etc.) of the dying airlines? It's pretty much a fact of life, pilots will eat their young and step over the corpse of a dead airline to improve their own lot in life.

 

[Airbusnut1]

I would like to ask both AA717, and jbDC9, just how did the rest of the pilot group stood by, and did nothing while the careers of these airlines went "on the downhill slide" Do you even remember how many Braniff pilots that were on the street when their company went under, were hired by at the time, Piedmont, USAir ,Northwest, etc. They were given preference,to the rest of the pilots who were also trying to get a job.
It amazes me when everyone forgets what happened in the past, and starts to spout off nothing but ill informed retoric about how the rest of the industry was standing by "salïvaitng" over how much better their lives were going to be at someone's elses expense.
Get a grip boy's. And stop hating the rest of the industry for your percieved ills.
We all get a good screwing now and then, hopefully its from our wives/girlfriends. Unfortunatly for the last few years the whole profession worldwide took a hit.

"It's pretty much a fact of life, pilots will eat their young and step over the corpse of a dead airline to improve their own lot in life."

Thats a sad quote, get some help dude.

 

[skykid]

You don't think that when Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am and TWA were on their downhill slides that the pilots at AA, UA, DL, etc. weren't salivating over the thoughts of how their individual airlines and careers could benefit by picking up the pieces (slots, routes, aircraft, etc.) of the dying airlines?

No I don't. I believe the vast majority of pilots at your company and mine are decent people who wouldn't wish ill on anybody. I have flown with enough ex-Eastern and Pan Am guys and had enough conversations with pilots to have faith in this opinion. You can look out for your own interests without being a jerk. I have sat next to very, very few pilots who haven't had anything but sympathy at others misfortunes.

There is no such thing as an unhealthy B fund. If terminated you still get the money deposited into your portfolio. Unlike the A-fund when a deposit is made the money is yours and cannot be touched by the company.

I know how a B fund works - I've got one. What I said was the days of a healthy A AND B fund being the retirement package for an airline pilot are gone. In other words a defined benefits AND a defined contribution plan are no more.

What's even more amazing is now that he can't do it, he doesn't have a plan B.

G4G5, would you post your source that details how the PBGC hasn't in fact already assumed control of the United pensions? I'm not talking about the House bill that deals with budget money from the next fiscal year.

What's amazing to me is the fact that Tilton actually thought that he could just dump almost $7 BILLION of under funded ension debt on the US tax payer and get away with it.

G4G5, the money the PBGC has, where did it come from?

The PBGC would have covered around $6.6 billion of the obligations, now they can make up the difference with UAL assets.

When does that happen?

 

[G4G5]

http://news.morningstar.com/news/DJ/M06/D24/200506241734DOWJONESDJONLINE000982.html

Correct me if I am wrong but if UAL dumps it's pensions on the PBGC as planned then the PBGC has no rights to any further UAL monies.
If UAL goes CH 7 and then dumps their pensions on the PBGC, the PBGC (US tax payer) now moves above the banks to the top of the list of creditors who get repayed from the sale of UAL assets.
this is why congress and the senate have/will pass bill that will be turned into law by Oct/06 to stop companies from doing this.

 

[skykid]

The measure past by the House is a symbolic gesture with no teeth. The Wall Street Journal opines that neither the Senate or executive branch have any interest in it, we'll see. One could argue that certain administrative expenses of the PBGC are funded with federal money, however the money the PBGC has ALREADY allocated for United, and put on its books as such last year, has nothing to do with next years federal budget.

United grossed over 1.5 billion in May 2005. A surviving United might generate the tax revenue to pay for its pensions in 2 years, maybe 6 months less if you really get into the details.
What I believe will happen sooner rather than later in this country is a widespread collapse of defined pensions through several different industries to include the massive automotive industry pensions. At that point in the future a federal bailout of the PBGC may come to pass. I would argue the survival of these companies would do more to pay for the bailout than liquidation - see paragraph above.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I've heard a lot of talk about a national union, (bar association...whatever). I may be wrong, but I think that is what the ship captains (as in ocean vessels) did to protect their jobs. The only thing they got for it, now most ships are registered in foreign countrys to avoid them. And our laws may not allow this for airplanes now, but if push came to shove, powerfull lobbyists could get that changed.

I respectfully disagree. I think that it was the demands of union crews (who are much further down on the skill/knowledge scale than captains), who drove the costs too high.

I think the industry would have been able to support high CA salaries, but not extra-high unskilled CREW salaries.

Example: An airline MIGHT be able to aford good pilot salaries, but why is the bag-thrower making $20/hr? THAT job can be replace by non-union workers.

Anyone can learn to throw bags in a week.

 

[100LL... Again!]

So whose fault is all this?

Answer - everyone's fault.

The a-holes for being a-holes. The indifferent for being indifferent.
Those who took silent glee in the demise of others because they (in their insecurity) wanted to feel better about themselves.

ALPA's total failure to create real unity, coupled with the selfishness of the individual pilot groups has brought this on ourselves.

In truth, even though it does not seem that the profession deserves it, we really do.

The arrogance of mainline pilots who have no problem with "prop trash" making peanuts, the regional guys who thrill at the transfer of mainline jobs to the codeshare partners, scabs (the real kind).

Ultimately, it is the responsibility of those 'at the top" to be leaders. Impoverished regional pilots had no clout with anyone. Yes, we could have refused to take regional jets, but some other regional would have taken them anyway.

ALPA and the mainline unions had their chance to create real unity in the profession. They had the funds and the political clout.

Instead of using their negotiating capital to ensure that the profession would have been TRULY protected, they gambled.

They gambled that they could put their competitors under, or they gambled that things would always stay at status quo, they gambled on scope language (a paper promise).

Ultimately, those in a position to lead did not lead.

So, here we are now.

 

[AA717driver]

It amazes me when everyone forgets what happened in the past, and starts to spout off nothing but ill informed retoric about how the rest of the industry was standing by "salïvaitng" over how much better their lives were going to be at someone's elses expense.
Get a grip boy's. And stop hating the rest of the industry for your percieved ills.
We all get a good screwing now and then, hopefully its from our wives/girlfriends. Unfortunatly for the last few years the whole profession worldwide took a hit.

"It's pretty much a fact of life, pilots will eat their young and step over the corpse of a dead airline to improve their own lot in life."

Thats a sad quote, get some help dude.

Airbusnut I saw this for myself. You are the one who has no clue. For 15 years, those of us at the "bottom feeders" endured snide comments every time we rode an OAL jumpseat (except for SWA). That IS a fact. My friend in the COS C-130 unit actually had squadron mates from UAL who said to his face "why don't you guys do the right thing and go out of business". That IS a fact. My ex-TWA friend who left for UAL in '92 told me of the comments he endured from UAL lifers while he and the former PAA F/E's sat back and just smiled, knowing this day might come and no one was immune.

You don't remember those things because it didn't affect you. I'll bet you remember the comments some have made about UAL going out of business for the "good of the industry" for a LONG time.

Taking a screwing means getting extended on a trip or having your long LAS layover turned into a 10 hour EWR layover. Getting your career destroyed and your pension stolen is a little harder to brush off.

The bottom line is that these types of attitudes have existed for a very long time and they exist today so you'd just better get used to it. We both know where the word "sympathy" resides in the dictionary.TC

 

[Airbusnut1]

AA717 I say again you are a fool.
And no I do not fly for UAL

 

[G4G5]

SKYkid

I don't really see that happening. IMHO what you will see is grandfathering. At many large fortune 100 companies like IBM and Time Warner, they have grandfathered the employees on the property with the traditional retirement programs. Then any new employees hired after X date are enrolled in the new 401k, non defined benifit plans. Large union labor controlled companies like GM can't just tell the UAW that they are no longer going to fund their retirements, "here's your new plan". But they can offer an alternative that will effect only future employees. Could UAL have dropped their pensions on the PBGC back in 2000?

What congress and the senate are trying to do is having to avoid a federal bail out of the PBGC. You may feel that the bill passed by congress has no teeth, that's your opinion. From the take of the Morningstar author I get the feeling it has teeth, he even go so far as to mention the 10/2005 date when the bill would become law. We will have to wait and see. MY guess is that the congress and the senate will pass the bill. What are the options? Every company in the US would/could transfer their pension liabilities to the PBGC? I don't think so. If they don't pass the law, how long do you think it would take before NWA, DAL, AA, GM, Ford, yada yada dumped their plans too?

Your take on the revenue generated by UAL is not valid becasue, their is a finite number of passengers and if UAL is not there, those pax and their tax revenue will just shift to a different carrier. If GM dies tomorrow people will not stop driving or buying cars. IF UAL goes away tomorrow people will not stop flying. The jobs transfer to a different company (toyota in kentucky, BMW in GSP, Hundai in AL). The only thing that changes is the name on the top of the paycheck. The tax revenue will just come from a different carrier/company. In fact one could argue that letting the financialy viable companies prosper without the burden of the industry having to support the UAL and USAir's of the world would be in everyones best interest. Not the other way around

 

[G4G5]

AA717 I say again you are a fool.
And no I do not fly for UAL

No you are the fool, A717 speaks the truth.

 

[skykid]

You may feel that the bill passed by congress has no teeth, that's your opinion. From the take of the Morningstar author I get the feeling it has teeth, he even go so far as to mention the 10/2005 date when the bill would become law.

I don't think you understand where the PBGCs money come from. I tell you what, I prohibit G4G5 from spending any of my money for the next fiscal year starting in October. Not going to affect you is it? The House bill states the PBGC can't use federal funds from next year's budget for United pensions. Okay, done.

IF UAL goes away tomorrow people will not stop flying. The jobs transfer to a different company (toyota in kentucky, BMW in GSP, Hundai in AL). The only thing that changes is the name on the top of the paycheck.

Yep, I heard JetBlue was going to pick up the Vietnam flights. Fact is, a bunch of flying will go to foreign carriers and we will never see it again.

 

[B6Driver]

Airbusnut1,
I to was there and heard to many comments myself.
You are the clueless one on this run. United has no one to blame but themselves. Greed was not good for them, the price was too high to pay. Now they'll pay forever.

 

[jbDC9]

"It's pretty much a fact of life, pilots will eat their young and step over the corpse of a dead airline to improve their own lot in life."

Thats a sad quote, get some help dude.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Mr Wizard. And no thanks, don't need any help.

Did you even read Boeingman's comments on the previous pages regarding the UAL guys looking down their noses at CAL pilots and trying to bury them? You gonna say that never happened? Get a clue.

And you call AA717 a fool? Nice...

 

[AA717driver]

Yep, I heard JetBlue was going to pick up the Vietnam flights. Fact is, a bunch of flying will go to foreign carriers and we will never see it again.

I believe a lot of international flying will eventually be done by non-U.S. carriers. Are we to establish "Natiional carriers" again? Should we embark on the protectionism as the rest of the world is opening their doors to business? TWA, PanAm and UAL used to have intra-Europe flying. Now, EasyJet does that. If any of the U.S. carriers could have become as effecient as EasyJet or Ryannair, they would still be plying the skies between Rome and Paris.

JetBlue can't fly to VN today but it's not exactly like going to the moon. ATA has been flying all over the world for a couple of decades. I'm sitting in Mumbai, India right now. It was a no-brainer getting here.

It doesn't take a UAL or AA to fly international. If JB or Air Vietnam can do it cheaper, they will take market share from the less effecient carriers regardless of their history and previous stature in the U.S. airline business. The world has shrunk and those who fail to keep up will go by the wayside.

Good luck.TC

 

[Dangerkitty]

AA717 I say again you are a fool.
And no I do not fly for UAL

Airbusnut1,

I suggest you quit while you are way way behind. AA717 has made you his bitch time and time again and yet you still come back for more. Quit bringing a knife to a gun fight. You are out-matched and you cannot win.

And FWIW me being a Native AA'er and AA717 being from TWA I have disagreed with him on many many many things. HOWEVER, he aint know fool and you can't compete in any debate with him

You have been schooled. Go home junior.

 

[aa73]

Airbusnut1,

I suggest you quit while you are way way behind. AA717 has made you his bitch time and time again and yet you still come back for more. Quit bringing a knife to a gun fight. You are out-matched and you cannot win.

And FWIW me being a Native AA'er and AA717 being from TWA I have disagreed with him on many many many things. HOWEVER, he aint know fool and you can't compete in any debate with him

You have been schooled. Go home junior.

From another "native", Airbusnut, you did indeed lose this debate.

Well said TC. OK, back to arguing!

 

[koko nw]

It doesn't take a UAL or AA to fly international. If JB or Air Vietnam can do it cheaper, they will take market share from the less effecient carriers regardless of their history and previous stature in the U.S. airline business. The world has shrunk and those who fail to keep up will go by the wayside.

Good luck.TC[/QUOTE]

How CHEAP/EFFECIENT are you willing too go? There's a certain standard of living most americans are accustomed too. If keeping up and competing against Air Vietnam means living off of Air Vietnam wages....are you willing?


I don't have the answers, but this continual slide has got to stop somewhere.
If not, your going to see Air Vietnam, Nigeria, you name it they'll fly there for pennies against our dollars...

If that's your efficient future....

Cheers

 

[AA717driver]

Thanks, kitty and aa73... Now, back to our regularly scheduled pi$$ing contest!

koko nw--I'm not advocating flying for pennies, that's just what is happening now. On my current swing through Asia and India, there are startups everywhere. Same for Europe. It's not so much that they are paying low wages to pilots (I believe they are paying LCC market rates based on that particular country's standard of living) but overall labor costs are really low.

Pay will have to rise in these emerging markets. The big story yesterday was that there will be a shortfall of around 3,000 pilots in India alone in the next few years. Jobs are available in Asia--Air VN, Air Asia, Dragonair... If you don't mind living over here, you will have work.TC

 

[koko nw]

AA717....No argument here in regards to job's available elsewhere. I personally choose not to pursue them.
I've flown oversea's for the last 18 years and lived abroad on and off for 12, and can say with a degree of certainty, most people would have no idea the hardships involved.

Ran into an ex-pat from Canada for instance with a 3 year contract with I believe Malaysian Airlines in Kuala Lumpur....Very happy to have a job but at the same time counting the day's until he could get a job back home. Dealing with a built in language barrier and customs can quickly ostrasize (sp) you from your "co-workers" on and off the job.

Computers, clothes, toy's...you name it, it's being produced somewhere else, more efficiently and much much cheaper. It's just not our industry. But I digress, I'll stick my head back into the sand and wish it all away

By the way, pretty cool flying you got yourself into. I'm jealous.

Enjoy your layovers.

cheers