United

[koko nw]

Did you ever wear one of those "TORQUE" pins? You know, the ones I used to see on so many UAL guys while they would lecture the CAL pilots to "fall on our swords for the good of the industry".

Employed at UAL since 98, NEVER even heard of "TORQUE" pins, please enlighten me.

You know Boeingman, these yarns are starting to sound like high school football stories, the one UAL A-hole turns into 5 then 20 then all of sudden it's the " So many UAL Pilots would lecture us".

 

[Boeingman]

Employed at UAL since 98, NEVER even heard of "TORQUE" pins, please enlighten me.

Ask a few of your senior comrades (at least those with the integrity may mention or admit) about the underground TORQUE campaign against CAL (during the 2nd bk) in the early 90's. It stood for Try Our Real Quality United Experience. A large group of UAL employees (mainly in Denver) were wearing pins with a screw going through the CAL logo. Your pilots and agents would pull our customers out of ticket lines and offer them lower fares on UAL, pilots were slowing down on the runway to force go arounds. Pilots would make comments about safety on CAL to our passengers etc. etc.

United in the capacity as a corporation, nor did any of our "brother" unions make any attempt to stop this individual behavior. Is that enough enlightenment for you?

You know Boeingman, these yarns are starting to sound like high school football stories, the one UAL A-hole turns into 5 then 20 then all of sudden it's the " So many UAL Pilots would lecture us".

Honestly, I don't care what you think of my perception or recollection of events before your time at UAL. I was there first hand to live through and experience numerous unprofessional acts and childish opinionated comments from far more than just "one" UAL pilot about CAL.

I just wish I could meet this "One UAL A-hole" you mentioned. Judging by these other posts and my memory, he sure did make a lot of lousy first impressions.

 

[Boeingman]

My guess is you will have a different outlook when it happens to you. With the way this industry goes, you are going to be fortunate, and I hope you are, for CAL not to go Ch11 for the 3rd time.

Not at all. If these brilliant MBA's running these airlines knew they wouldn't be let off the hook with these pension plans, they would take better financial care in planning their funding. Especially knowing the balance sheet would take a hit in a pension default.

Who knows what this industry will bring. All of us are one terrorist incident away from either a 7 or an 11 filing. I think CAL will make it though. For me, it is a moot point whether we fail or survive. I learned a long time ago never to rely on an airline for your income or retirement. But I appreciate the comment.

 

[koko nw]

Thank you for the lesson in regards to the Torque program, really. I had no idea.

"United in the capacity as a corporation, nor did any of our "brother" unions make any attempt to stop this individual behavior. Is that enough enlightenment for you?"

Just like when your late CEO compared us to the AIDS epidemic and should be eradicated? Where where your outcries for your brothers after that blasemous statement against your "brothers"?

Come on we all have blood on our hands, it's in the eye of the heholder who is of lessor sin.

"Honestly, I don't care what you think of my perception or recollection of events before your time at UAL. I was there first hand to live through and experience numerous unprofessional acts and childish opinionated comments from far more than just "one" UAL pilot about CAL. "

I can't and will not speak for them, if your accounts are true, then shame on them.

Tailwinds to you Mr. Boeingman.

 

[Boeingman]

Thank you for the lesson in regards to the Torque program, really. I had no idea.

No problem and sorry for my bitchy reply. It brings back a lot of bad memories and I find it difficult initially to remember not everyone fits into the mold of others. With my advancing age I should not assume everyone is aware of the past sins and transgressions of their peers from years past.

Just like when your late CEO compared us to the AIDS epidemic and should be eradicated? Where where your outcries for your brothers after that blasemous statement against your "brothers"?

I agree it was completely uncalled for, yet for the rank and file it is much more difficult to stem hot air or slanderous actions from the CEO than vis versa down the corporate food chain.

Come on we all have blood on our hands, it's in the eye of the heholder who is of lessor sin.

Agreed and point taken.

I can't and will not speak for them, if your accounts are true, then shame on them.

People reap what they sow. I thought about those times quite often watching UAL over the last several years. My conclusion is always that in the end everyone gets hurt. Even the arrogant idiots that wished ill upon others are victims because no one wins in these situations. My only hope is those that acted in an immature manner will reflect back and realize how unprofessional and arrogant they sounded.

Tailwinds to you Mr. Boeingman.

To you as well.

 

[AA717driver]

Agreed, United pilots caused the demise of these airlines. We also turned our backs on all orphans, WWII veterans, and battered housewifes. Its that UAL pilot that B6Driver flew with in 1991 and Oldxfr8dog remembers - he is the ringleader and it is certainly intelligent to lump the whole group together.

I didn't say the UAL pilots CAUSED the demise of these airlines (the respective causes are well documented). I just said the UAL (and AA, DAL and USAir) pilots stood on the sidelines cheering as it happened. Did ALL of those airlines' pilots hope for and cheer on the demise? No. But the vast
majority did at least exhibit benign indifference for the plight of their fellow pilots.

We are simply returning the favor. And, I guess I should be asking Airbusnut 'who the hell is he' to expect any of us to give a crap about HIS career? Again, just returning the favor.

Like I said, suck it up, stop snivelling and get your resume together--just like thousands of others have had to do in the past 15 years or so.TC

 

[skykid]

I just said the UAL (and AA, DAL and USAir) pilots stood on the sidelines cheering as it happened. Did ALL of those airlines' pilots hope for and cheer on the demise? No. But the vast
majority did at least exhibit benign indifference for the plight of their fellow pilots.

That is the most stupid and uninformed statement I've seen to date on this forum, and that is saying a lot. You are now returning a "favor?" You have problems.

 

[G4G5]

Agreed. However with Billions in assets still on hand, UAL (or any other company) should be forced to liquidate such assets to fund their pension obligations prior to an outright default.

The bankruptcy laws need a major rewrite for this as pension underfunding will mirror the the S&L crisis of the 80's. The way it is now, only the employees (i.e. peons) get screwed.

Agreed, and in esence I believe that is what congres tried to tell Tilton. In the case of United, pensions were underfunded by around $9.8 billion. The PBGC would have covered around $6.6 billion of the obligations, now they can make up the difference with UAL assets. If the pensions were dumped onto the PBGC like UAL wanted, then the PBGC would not be eligable to recoupe a dime from liquidation. Congress told all of the other majors and companies like GM, that your pension debts will not just disapear unter CH11.

What's amazing to me is the fact that Tilton actually thought that he could just dump almost $7 BILLION of under funded ension debt on the US tax payer and get away with it. What's even more amazing is now that he can't do it, he doesn't have a plan B.

 

[semperfido]

Simply put, wouldn't it be a better overall answer for United to simply fold rather than set a precedent of pension raiding to overcome bankruptcy? .

YES

free market--level field---swim or sink----no help from gov't--- join the club buddy

 

[Dangerkitty]

The days of a healthy A AND B fund are gone forever.

There is no such thing as an unhealthy B fund. If terminated you still get the money deposited into your portfolio. Unlike the A-fund when a deposit is made the money is yours and cannot be touched by the company.

 

[jbDC9]

That is the most stupid and uninformed statement I've seen to date on this forum, and that is saying a lot. You are now returning a "favor?" You have problems.

Actually skykid, I'd say AA717 is right on the money. "I just said the UAL (and AA, DAL and USAir) pilots stood on the sidelines cheering as it happened. Did ALL of those airlines' pilots hope for and cheer on the demise? No. But the vast majority did at least exhibit benign indifference for the plight of their fellow pilots." How is that stupid and uninformed? You don't think that when Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am and TWA were on their downhill slides that the pilots at AA, UA, DL, etc. weren't salivating over the thoughts of how their individual airlines and careers could benefit by picking up the pieces (slots, routes, aircraft, etc.) of the dying airlines? It's pretty much a fact of life, pilots will eat their young and step over the corpse of a dead airline to improve their own lot in life.

 

[Airbusnut1]

I would like to ask both AA717, and jbDC9, just how did the rest of the pilot group stood by, and did nothing while the careers of these airlines went "on the downhill slide" Do you even remember how many Braniff pilots that were on the street when their company went under, were hired by at the time, Piedmont, USAir ,Northwest, etc. They were given preference,to the rest of the pilots who were also trying to get a job.
It amazes me when everyone forgets what happened in the past, and starts to spout off nothing but ill informed retoric about how the rest of the industry was standing by "salïvaitng" over how much better their lives were going to be at someone's elses expense.
Get a grip boy's. And stop hating the rest of the industry for your percieved ills.
We all get a good screwing now and then, hopefully its from our wives/girlfriends. Unfortunatly for the last few years the whole profession worldwide took a hit.

"It's pretty much a fact of life, pilots will eat their young and step over the corpse of a dead airline to improve their own lot in life."

Thats a sad quote, get some help dude.

 

[skykid]

You don't think that when Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am and TWA were on their downhill slides that the pilots at AA, UA, DL, etc. weren't salivating over the thoughts of how their individual airlines and careers could benefit by picking up the pieces (slots, routes, aircraft, etc.) of the dying airlines?

No I don't. I believe the vast majority of pilots at your company and mine are decent people who wouldn't wish ill on anybody. I have flown with enough ex-Eastern and Pan Am guys and had enough conversations with pilots to have faith in this opinion. You can look out for your own interests without being a jerk. I have sat next to very, very few pilots who haven't had anything but sympathy at others misfortunes.

There is no such thing as an unhealthy B fund. If terminated you still get the money deposited into your portfolio. Unlike the A-fund when a deposit is made the money is yours and cannot be touched by the company.

I know how a B fund works - I've got one. What I said was the days of a healthy A AND B fund being the retirement package for an airline pilot are gone. In other words a defined benefits AND a defined contribution plan are no more.

What's even more amazing is now that he can't do it, he doesn't have a plan B.

G4G5, would you post your source that details how the PBGC hasn't in fact already assumed control of the United pensions? I'm not talking about the House bill that deals with budget money from the next fiscal year.

What's amazing to me is the fact that Tilton actually thought that he could just dump almost $7 BILLION of under funded ension debt on the US tax payer and get away with it.

G4G5, the money the PBGC has, where did it come from?

The PBGC would have covered around $6.6 billion of the obligations, now they can make up the difference with UAL assets.

When does that happen?

 

[G4G5]

http://news.morningstar.com/news/DJ/M06/D24/200506241734DOWJONESDJONLINE000982.html

Correct me if I am wrong but if UAL dumps it's pensions on the PBGC as planned then the PBGC has no rights to any further UAL monies.
If UAL goes CH 7 and then dumps their pensions on the PBGC, the PBGC (US tax payer) now moves above the banks to the top of the list of creditors who get repayed from the sale of UAL assets.
this is why congress and the senate have/will pass bill that will be turned into law by Oct/06 to stop companies from doing this.

 

[skykid]

The measure past by the House is a symbolic gesture with no teeth. The Wall Street Journal opines that neither the Senate or executive branch have any interest in it, we'll see. One could argue that certain administrative expenses of the PBGC are funded with federal money, however the money the PBGC has ALREADY allocated for United, and put on its books as such last year, has nothing to do with next years federal budget.

United grossed over 1.5 billion in May 2005. A surviving United might generate the tax revenue to pay for its pensions in 2 years, maybe 6 months less if you really get into the details.
What I believe will happen sooner rather than later in this country is a widespread collapse of defined pensions through several different industries to include the massive automotive industry pensions. At that point in the future a federal bailout of the PBGC may come to pass. I would argue the survival of these companies would do more to pay for the bailout than liquidation - see paragraph above.