United

[AA717driver]

I don't see how letting an other airline go under works for anyone else but the competition. Are you saying that I should give up my job for the greater good of the rest of the industry, and then you all can enjoy the fruits of good times and enjoy your life, and I should feel all warm and fuzzy because your life is better at my expense.
Guess what Genuis, I worked long and hard to get where I am now, and what is in it for me?
The fact that you may want a good life in this industry meens nothing to me.
I want one too.
So get off your butt and work for it, don't expect me to roll over and give it to you,because you work for someone that is doing OK for the moment.
Your time on the other end of the pendulem will come.
Before you post some drivel like you just did, think about what the other end of the spectrum looks like before you start spouting off.
We all work for bettering our lives, And I'll be dammed if I will let some jerk off say on these boards that they deserve to have something that I have worked dang hard for, just because it's for the good of them,without a rebuttal.

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU?
Are you better than the rest of us?
Let it fly now folks. I'm ready for the replys

HA! HA! HA! Man, that's a good one. Sorry, my sympathy meter's pegged at zero. You guys turned your backs on PanAm, EAL and TWA--you were too busy upgrading to be bothered, and now you wonder why no one gives a crap about your exhalted career being in shambles.

My advice to you, son, is to get your resume together and start networking just like me and nearly 2,000 of my fellow TWA pilots who are on the street did when we lost our careers.

And, yes, I intend to be condescending. Just returning the favor.TC

 

[skykid]

The "shining example" United and I believe the other legacies will have to follow, is where the LCCs start with their retirement plans. The days of a healthy A AND B fund are gone forever. I point that out only because it is a little silly for some to point fingers and get POed when the legacy airlines shed compensation and benefits to compete. What did you think was going to happen? Common sense.
Again, I understand that defined benefit pensions are a thing of the past and would not be offering them in any business I'd start. I'm only pointing out the irony in someone who flies for a LCC begrudging what is taking place for the legacies to compete.

Thanks for pointing out United doesn't have to pay bills. I have been wondering what those operating expenses were on the 8-K filings. I guess they just get to make up a number and fill in that blank.

 

[skykid]

You guys turned your backs on PanAm, EAL and TWA--you were too busy upgrading to be bothered

Agreed, United pilots caused the demise of these airlines. We also turned our backs on all orphans, WWII veterans, and battered housewifes. Its that UAL pilot that B6Driver flew with in 1991 and Oldxfr8dog remembers - he is the ringleader and it is certainly intelligent to lump the whole group together.

 

[Boeingman]

I don't see how letting an other airline go under works for anyone else but the competition. Are you saying that I should give up my job for the greater good of the rest of the industry, and then you all can enjoy the fruits of good times and enjoy your life, and I should feel all warm and fuzzy because your life is better at my expense.
Guess what Genuis, I worked long and hard to get where I am now, and what is in it for me?
The fact that you may want a good life in this industry meens nothing to me.
I want one too.
So get off your butt and work for it, don't expect me to roll over and give it to you,because you work for someone that is doing OK for the moment.
Your time on the other end of the pendulem will come.
Before you post some drivel like you just did, think about what the other end of the spectrum looks like before you start spouting off.
We all work for bettering our lives, And I'll be dammed if I will let some jerk off say on these boards that they deserve to have something that I have worked dang hard for, just because it's for the good of them,without a rebuttal.

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU?
Are you better than the rest of us?
Let it fly now folks. I'm ready for the replys

Did you ever wear one of those "TORQUE" pins? You know, the ones I used to see on so many UAL guys while they would lecture the CAL pilots to "fall on our swords for the good of the industry".

 

[Boeingman]

The "shining example" United and I believe the other legacies will have to follow, is where the LCCs start with their retirement plans. The days of a healthy A AND B fund are gone forever. I point that out only because it is a little silly for some to point fingers and get POed when the legacy airlines shed compensation and benefits to compete. What did you think was going to happen? Common sense.

Agreed. However with Billions in assets still on hand, UAL (or any other company) should be forced to liquidate such assets to fund their pension obligations prior to an outright default.

The bankruptcy laws need a major rewrite for this as pension underfunding will mirror the the S&L crisis of the 80's. The way it is now, only the employees (i.e. peons) get screwed.

 

[Malcolm]

Can we at least "pretend" to show some sort of compassion for peers that are going through bad/tragic life times in this industry.

To single out an entire Pilot group as A-holes, and scoff/cheer/narrate their career struggles because of some idiot at that same company was a jerk...... is ridiculous.

Here is a news flash... people are jerks in all walks of life, all the time, at all companies successful or failing.... we're all just pilots doing the SAME job.

Get over the vengeful/hateful/spiteful/ attitudes.... please.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Can we at least "pretend" to show some sort of compassion for peers that are going through bad/tragic life times in this industry.

To single out an entire Pilot group as A-holes, and scoff/cheer/narrate their career struggles because of some idiot at that same company was a jerk...... is ridiculous.

Here is a news flash... people are jerks in all walks of life, all the time, at all companies successful or failing.... we're all just pilots doing the SAME job.

Get over the vengeful/hateful/spiteful/ attitudes.... please.

WHOA!!!
Wait a minute! I have friends at UA and have been shown much professional courtesy by UA crews over the span of my career. Just because I display a little (juvenile) glee at the come-uppance of one sanctimonious jerk doesn't mean I condemn the entire group!
Actually, there has been a couple... But I still don't wish ill on the company.

 

[joevollers]

I have to wonder if UA pilots would be in a much different position if they did not take the "lets kick 'em where it hurts" attitiude during the summer of 2000

I was flying out of DEN that summer and knew more than one business traveler that switched to F9 for good because they did not feel like they could rely on UAL.

I feel that work slow downs are counter-productive.. Vote to strike or don't--- but do the best job you know how until you vote!

 

[skykid]

Agreed. However with Billions in assets still on hand, UAL (or any other company) should be forced to liquidate such assets to fund their pension obligations prior to an outright default.

My guess is you will have a different outlook when it happens to you. With the way this industry goes, you are going to be fortunate, and I hope you are, for CAL not to go Ch11 for the 3rd time.

Not now, we're not . . . . but if the other airlines follow UAL's "shining example". the PBGC will need a bailout . . . from Uncle Sam. And who is Uncle Sam?

Over 1.5 billion gross a month, been around 80 years. How many times over and over and over do you think United has generated the tax revenue to pay for any future PBCG bailout? How bout just the last decade? Its unimaginable. How many months would it take while United is still operating to pay for it again? How many times over do you think United employees have paid in taxes for any PBCG shortfall? How about the other companies that have generated revenue because of United? If you want United to go under so you can feel superior or perceive you will have better job security, say so. The Uncle Sam bailout argument, esp when even the PBGC knows a surviving United helps their balance sheet, is weak.

 

[HawkI]

I've heard a lot of talk about a national union, (bar association...whatever). I may be wrong, but I think that is what the ship captains (as in ocean vessels) did to protect their jobs. The only thing they got for it, now most ships are registered in foreign countrys to avoid them. And our laws may not allow this for airplanes now, but if push came to shove, powerfull lobbyists could get that changed.

 

[koko nw]

Did you ever wear one of those "TORQUE" pins? You know, the ones I used to see on so many UAL guys while they would lecture the CAL pilots to "fall on our swords for the good of the industry".

Employed at UAL since 98, NEVER even heard of "TORQUE" pins, please enlighten me.

You know Boeingman, these yarns are starting to sound like high school football stories, the one UAL A-hole turns into 5 then 20 then all of sudden it's the " So many UAL Pilots would lecture us".

 

[Boeingman]

Employed at UAL since 98, NEVER even heard of "TORQUE" pins, please enlighten me.

Ask a few of your senior comrades (at least those with the integrity may mention or admit) about the underground TORQUE campaign against CAL (during the 2nd bk) in the early 90's. It stood for Try Our Real Quality United Experience. A large group of UAL employees (mainly in Denver) were wearing pins with a screw going through the CAL logo. Your pilots and agents would pull our customers out of ticket lines and offer them lower fares on UAL, pilots were slowing down on the runway to force go arounds. Pilots would make comments about safety on CAL to our passengers etc. etc.

United in the capacity as a corporation, nor did any of our "brother" unions make any attempt to stop this individual behavior. Is that enough enlightenment for you?

You know Boeingman, these yarns are starting to sound like high school football stories, the one UAL A-hole turns into 5 then 20 then all of sudden it's the " So many UAL Pilots would lecture us".

Honestly, I don't care what you think of my perception or recollection of events before your time at UAL. I was there first hand to live through and experience numerous unprofessional acts and childish opinionated comments from far more than just "one" UAL pilot about CAL.

I just wish I could meet this "One UAL A-hole" you mentioned. Judging by these other posts and my memory, he sure did make a lot of lousy first impressions.

 

[Boeingman]

My guess is you will have a different outlook when it happens to you. With the way this industry goes, you are going to be fortunate, and I hope you are, for CAL not to go Ch11 for the 3rd time.

Not at all. If these brilliant MBA's running these airlines knew they wouldn't be let off the hook with these pension plans, they would take better financial care in planning their funding. Especially knowing the balance sheet would take a hit in a pension default.

Who knows what this industry will bring. All of us are one terrorist incident away from either a 7 or an 11 filing. I think CAL will make it though. For me, it is a moot point whether we fail or survive. I learned a long time ago never to rely on an airline for your income or retirement. But I appreciate the comment.

 

[koko nw]

Thank you for the lesson in regards to the Torque program, really. I had no idea.

"United in the capacity as a corporation, nor did any of our "brother" unions make any attempt to stop this individual behavior. Is that enough enlightenment for you?"

Just like when your late CEO compared us to the AIDS epidemic and should be eradicated? Where where your outcries for your brothers after that blasemous statement against your "brothers"?

Come on we all have blood on our hands, it's in the eye of the heholder who is of lessor sin.

"Honestly, I don't care what you think of my perception or recollection of events before your time at UAL. I was there first hand to live through and experience numerous unprofessional acts and childish opinionated comments from far more than just "one" UAL pilot about CAL. "

I can't and will not speak for them, if your accounts are true, then shame on them.

Tailwinds to you Mr. Boeingman.

 

[Boeingman]

Thank you for the lesson in regards to the Torque program, really. I had no idea.

No problem and sorry for my bitchy reply. It brings back a lot of bad memories and I find it difficult initially to remember not everyone fits into the mold of others. With my advancing age I should not assume everyone is aware of the past sins and transgressions of their peers from years past.

Just like when your late CEO compared us to the AIDS epidemic and should be eradicated? Where where your outcries for your brothers after that blasemous statement against your "brothers"?

I agree it was completely uncalled for, yet for the rank and file it is much more difficult to stem hot air or slanderous actions from the CEO than vis versa down the corporate food chain.

Come on we all have blood on our hands, it's in the eye of the heholder who is of lessor sin.

Agreed and point taken.

I can't and will not speak for them, if your accounts are true, then shame on them.

People reap what they sow. I thought about those times quite often watching UAL over the last several years. My conclusion is always that in the end everyone gets hurt. Even the arrogant idiots that wished ill upon others are victims because no one wins in these situations. My only hope is those that acted in an immature manner will reflect back and realize how unprofessional and arrogant they sounded.

Tailwinds to you Mr. Boeingman.

To you as well.

 

[AA717driver]

Agreed, United pilots caused the demise of these airlines. We also turned our backs on all orphans, WWII veterans, and battered housewifes. Its that UAL pilot that B6Driver flew with in 1991 and Oldxfr8dog remembers - he is the ringleader and it is certainly intelligent to lump the whole group together.

I didn't say the UAL pilots CAUSED the demise of these airlines (the respective causes are well documented). I just said the UAL (and AA, DAL and USAir) pilots stood on the sidelines cheering as it happened. Did ALL of those airlines' pilots hope for and cheer on the demise? No. But the vast
majority did at least exhibit benign indifference for the plight of their fellow pilots.

We are simply returning the favor. And, I guess I should be asking Airbusnut 'who the hell is he' to expect any of us to give a crap about HIS career? Again, just returning the favor.

Like I said, suck it up, stop snivelling and get your resume together--just like thousands of others have had to do in the past 15 years or so.TC

 

[skykid]

I just said the UAL (and AA, DAL and USAir) pilots stood on the sidelines cheering as it happened. Did ALL of those airlines' pilots hope for and cheer on the demise? No. But the vast
majority did at least exhibit benign indifference for the plight of their fellow pilots.

That is the most stupid and uninformed statement I've seen to date on this forum, and that is saying a lot. You are now returning a "favor?" You have problems.

 

[G4G5]

Agreed. However with Billions in assets still on hand, UAL (or any other company) should be forced to liquidate such assets to fund their pension obligations prior to an outright default.

The bankruptcy laws need a major rewrite for this as pension underfunding will mirror the the S&L crisis of the 80's. The way it is now, only the employees (i.e. peons) get screwed.

Agreed, and in esence I believe that is what congres tried to tell Tilton. In the case of United, pensions were underfunded by around $9.8 billion. The PBGC would have covered around $6.6 billion of the obligations, now they can make up the difference with UAL assets. If the pensions were dumped onto the PBGC like UAL wanted, then the PBGC would not be eligable to recoupe a dime from liquidation. Congress told all of the other majors and companies like GM, that your pension debts will not just disapear unter CH11.

What's amazing to me is the fact that Tilton actually thought that he could just dump almost $7 BILLION of under funded ension debt on the US tax payer and get away with it. What's even more amazing is now that he can't do it, he doesn't have a plan B.

 

[semperfido]

Simply put, wouldn't it be a better overall answer for United to simply fold rather than set a precedent of pension raiding to overcome bankruptcy? .

YES

free market--level field---swim or sink----no help from gov't--- join the club buddy

 

[Dangerkitty]

The days of a healthy A AND B fund are gone forever.

There is no such thing as an unhealthy B fund. If terminated you still get the money deposited into your portfolio. Unlike the A-fund when a deposit is made the money is yours and cannot be touched by the company.