UAL MEC tough stance on Scope---keep it up!

[DontFeedTheBear]

Not sure how that correlates?

How does choosing to leave the DoD equate to a regional pilot being forced out of a job because of scope reversal?

Recall the regional pilots are ALPA members as are the ML pilots....

I would expect that if a ML pilot group took back their scope, which they should, but it caused the unemployment of many fellow ALPA members that some method of protection could be put in place.

The longevity ratio protects the seniority of current ML pilots while acknowledging a regional pilots service to the brand.

So when scope was loosened and plenty of mainline pilots were furloughed, did the regional open their doors and allow them to take their jobs at higher seniority or payrates??? The answer is NO, there was a lot of opposition. The few were not paid more than their hiring position payrate, some UAL were supplemented by their union, not the regional. The few at USAir were given Captain slots and stayed the most junior CA's as FO's leapfrogged them for years, until their seniority could hold higher seniority. The rest were flowthrough agreements, which was whole different animal. By doing what you are suggesting, we are blocking Military folks from jobs, and we are slapping the face of those that left regionals and took the paycut. We need to play fair!!!

Yogi

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So when scope was loosened

at the choice of the ML pilots..

and plenty of mainline pilots were furloughed,

Due to ML pilots voting to relax scope...

did the regional open their doors and allow them to take their jobs at higher seniority or payrates???

Again... the regional pilots took regional jobs because that was the only way to gain Part 121 PIC time to even qualify for to apply to the majors...

Now, if ML pilots get scope back, the regional pilots are out of a job.. which is fine.... However, many regional pilots who wanted to fly for ML never applied because they could not/would not make the pay cut to first year pay at ML... That was their choice to stay employed at the express carriers

However, now, if this scope reversal actually happens the regional pilots will have no choice.. they will simply be out of a job...

The issue is here is the unintended consequence of forcing a pilot out of a job.

The answer is NO, there was a lot of opposition. The few were not paid more than their hiring position payrate, some UAL were supplemented by their union, not the regional.

And this is the union, ALPA, protecting its members...

The few at USAir were given Captain slots and stayed the most junior CA's as FO's leapfrogged them for years, until their seniority could hold higher seniority. The rest were flowthrough agreements, which was whole different animal. By doing what you are suggesting, we are blocking Military folks from jobs, and we are slapping the face of those that left regionals and took the paycut. We need to play fair!!!

Yogi

The MIL guys are free to apply to mainline like they always have.... The MIL guys never have nor expected longevity credit pay at a commercial corporation for DoD service... Is there another example of this in union labor? In addition, the MIL guys have their pension or Guard/Reserve...

You seem miffed because I am suggesting that the senior regional pilots get a bridge so they don't have to go from 80K to 30K because they were forced out of a job and onto the street....

Where or how are you harmed? How is a MIL guy harmed here?

 

[Hvy]

You must be new to the airline industry if you don't understand that a company just doesn't give 5 year or 10 year pay to a new hire. Everything on a contract is negotiated. We would have to give something up to give you your longevity pay. That is, of course, assuming that you even get called in for an interview or get offered a job. I have a suggestion for you...during the interview process why don't you express your thoughts to the interviewing Captain. Then let me know how that works out

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You must be new to the airline industry if you don't understand that a company just doesn't give 5 year or 10 year pay to a new hire.

You haven't been debating well... in fact you've got debate creep..... your arguement keeps changing as we progress...

Everything on a contract is negotiated.

That is correct.... Some ALPA carriers have preferred interviews for furloughed ALPA pilots.... why would the company do that?

We would have to give something up to give you your longevity pay.

Or perhaps what is the company gaining? Experienced ALPA pilots who know how to fly the brand but more importanly the NAS in Part 121 operations...

Experienced pilots are going to be rare in the next five years... but many regional pilots will not continue if they must go from 80-100K to 30K. This experience is in the best interest of the USA... I think the govt will help convince companies... if it is a labor friendly govt..

That is, of course, assuming that you even get called in for an interview or get offered a job. I have a suggestion for you...during the interview process why don't you express your thoughts to the interviewing Captain. Then let me know how that works out

That won't matter... Airlines will be needing pilots.... why not hire experienced pilots who were forced out of a job on to the street because of union scope....

Look at it from the ALPA regional pilots view... they took regional jobs to be able to be qualed for major airlines. Now their jobs might be gone... they have done nothing sinister or devious... or intentional like vote scope away... they are highly qualified and the majors will need pilots....

Finally, you haven't stated how you'd be harmed... it seems you are against this for personal reasons....

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

at the choice of the ML pilots..


Due to ML pilots voting to relax scope...


Again... the regional pilots took regional jobs because that was the only way to gain Part 121 PIC time to even qualify for to apply to the majors...

Now, if ML pilots get scope back, the regional pilots are out of a job.. which is fine.... However, many regional pilots who wanted to fly for ML never applied because they could not/would not make the pay cut to first year pay at ML... That was their choice to stay employed at the express carriers

However, now, if this scope reversal actually happens the regional pilots will have no choice.. they will simply be out of a job...

The issue is here is the unintended consequence of forcing a pilot out of a job.


And this is the union, ALPA, protecting its members...

The MIL guys are free to apply to mainline like they always have.... The MIL guys never have nor expected longevity credit pay at a commercial corporation for DoD service... Is there another example of this in union labor? In addition, the MIL guys have their pension or Guard/Reserve...

You seem miffed because I am suggesting that the senior regional pilots get a bridge so they don't have to go from 80K to 30K because they were forced out of a job and onto the street....

Where or how are you harmed? How is a MIL guy harmed here?

Thousands have made the jump and took the paycut. Many were even furloughed. That is the risk. So let me get this straight, you want to increase pay and mitigate risk? At the expense of whom? Management will surely take that out of mainline pilots' pockets. So who do you expect to pay for your proposal? Where will the concessions come from? Why don't you ask all of the junior regional FO's who will benefit by their newly found upgrade. The idea is just ridiculous...

Yogi

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Finally, you haven't stated how you'd be harmed... it seems you are against this for personal reasons....

If you can honestly tell me where the money will come from to support this proposal, I will gladly tell my reasons...I assure you they won't be personal...

Yogi

 

[AWACoff]

So how are you harmed?

I tell you what, Rez. How about if I get furloughed (ie. lose my job), your company has to pay me a rate higher than you are currently making. It's only fair since my hourly rate is far higher than yours. It shouldn't matter that you've been at your regional for umpteen years. All that matters is that my current pay should have value at your regional.

In your example of a 15 year RJ getting ratio'd at year 5 pay, you find it eminently fair that a pilot who never took a chance on his career should be rewarded with an enhanced pay scale. Potentially there are pilots who left that exact same carrier 4 years prior that would then be making less than some RJ captain who stayed at his relatively high pay scale and never took a chance or the initial pay cut. You find that fair, right?

You are asking to come to my carrier at a higher rate than I am currently on right now. But if I were to get furloughed, I doubt you would find it fair for me to be hired as a new hire at your company with a payscale higher than yours. Your idea of what is "fair" is well off of center of the Bell curve. I just hope that you are trying to stir the pot and don't truly believe the drivel you are typing.

 

[dingo222]

In your example of a 15 year RJ getting ratio'd at year 5 pay, you find it eminently fair that a pilot who never took a chance on his career should be rewarded with an enhanced pay scale.

Most of us were never given the opportunity to take that "chance" because you management farmed out all of the flying and hasn't hired in years.

 

[doh]

I can see the preferential interview as they are ALPA members. But they would have to start at the bottom of the pay scale. That would have happened if they had applied in the normal course of events. The harm here is indirect, but nonetheless exists as negotiating capital would have to be spent on this issue versus spending it on pilots currently on the list. In any case, the most important task is getting the flying back where it belongs! There will certainly be some short term pain, but the long term outlook for the profession will be exponential! Take it back!

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

This conversation amuses me quite a bit. There is all this talk of ALPA pilots losing their jobs if CAL scope is maintained in the JCBA. What ALPA pilots?

Skywest: non union
ChaBrickury: Teamsters
Go-Jet: Alter-ego scum (Teamsters)
TSA, XJT: 50 seaters, unaffected by scope tightening
Mesa: Not sure if they fly 70s under the UAL banner, but if so I think they'd be the only ALPA regional to have flying returned to mainline.

Did I miss anyone?

As for the first year pay, remember that the industry standard (DAL, SWA, FDX, JBLU) is now around $50K a year and that will be implemented well before any scope tightening. Heck, we were already offered that in that DAL plus $1 joke from this spring. So sorry Rez, at least at this company, $30K probie pay (actually more like $27K) will be a thing of the past. After our combined almost 1600 furloughs are recalled, the days of newhire poverty at mainline should be long gone!

 

[doh]

Dewey has a point. The best way to be a good ALPA member is to bring it all back home. The rest will sort itself out.

 

[pilotkppsg]

I've been sitting on the sidelines for this so far, but i'm gonna chime in now that i've seen alot of mainline guys who've come from us lowly regional jet operators clearly forgetting where they came from. YOU GUYS GAVE US THESE JETS. We didn't undercut any of you to get them. We were on your list via the flow through.

Since I work for Express Jet, plz allow me to speak as an Express Jet pilot. CAL wholly-owned us, everything from seniority numbers, CCS access, coair, uniforms, training etc was done to their standards and, with few exceptions, their employees. The IAH chief pilot for us was a bloody CAL flow up with recall rights till 2k8.

There was a flow-up/flow-down agreement in place that worked until you guys pussied up and wouldn't renew it after we voted in alpa over that faggot ass IACP scab factory of a union and got a contract better, much better, than yours (see Contract 04 work rules). A second year FO at XJT made more per hr than a first yr CAL FO on the 757. You guys spun us off to pay for your bankruptcy, then your executives have driven us almost into the dirt. Be it Mr Peanut Head Kellner or that blue blood prick from the Ivy Leagues, Smisek. We didn't do a thing to ya'll but provide extremely good feed for your hubs. Then you had to bring in chataqua and then give Colgan 80000 seat turboprops....

Anyway, if you want the flying we do back, fine, take it with my blessing, but don't sit their on your Righteous Boeing Cloud and reign down judgements on us, more than 40 percent of the Cal list came from Express. We wanted to be one list but you guys thought you were too good to fly something made in Brazil. That's fine too, but don't act like the reason you're still operating under concessionary contracts since 02 is because of us. If you need a person to blame, you need only look in a mirror...or at your MEC.

As for United being the pinnacle of experience and professionalism...ok, how many 300 hr chicks and minorities did ya'll hire in the 97-2000 era? Yeah, let's not forget about them or the SIU interns, etc who didn't even have an ATP you picked up. Admittedly they are likely furloughed now, but that notwithstanding, your poo doesn't exactly smell like roses, bro.

 

[jetflier]

It' time to turn the big ship around.....

 

[dingo222]

This conversation amuses me quite a bit. There is all this talk of ALPA pilots losing their jobs if CAL scope is maintained in the JCBA. What ALPA pilots?

Skywest: non union
ChaBrickury: Teamsters
Go-Jet: Alter-ego scum (Teamsters)
TSA, XJT: 50 seaters, unaffected by scope tightening
Mesa: Not sure if they fly 70s under the UAL banner, but if so I think they'd be the only ALPA regional to have flying returned to mainline.

Did I miss anyone?

As for the first year pay, remember that the industry standard (DAL, SWA, FDX, JBLU) is now around $50K a year and that will be implemented well before any scope tightening. Heck, we were already offered that in that DAL plus $1 joke from this spring. So sorry Rez, at least at this company, $30K probie pay (actually more like $27K) will be a thing of the past. After our combined almost 1600 furloughs are recalled, the days of newhire poverty at mainline should be long gone!

I think you forgot Colgan, but they are all turboprop anyhow. Maybe naive, but how is reigning in scope going to fix things in the short term? Obviously UAL doesn't have the cash to lease or buy the regional aircraft that they would be reclaiming. Mainline giving away scope created an entirely new industry. An industry that is making more money that Legacy carriers. Look at Skywest. They were able to buy ASA, Expressjet, Frontier, and Midwest. To my knowledge, UAL and CAL don't own a single aircraft that would be reclaimed by scope. The regional industry has a lobby that has rivaled ALPA at times. Do you really think CEO X at Brand Z regional is just going to pack up shop, give in, and give up his million dollar bonuses because you want your flying back?

I'm all for legacy carriers reclaiming scope. I've been stuck at this level with no prospect of moving up in the near future. Again, call me naive and confused, but how exactly is this going to take place? I'm sure I'll get 42 D-bag answers, but I'd actually like an educated one.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Thousands have made the jump and took the paycut.

their own choice. If the regional pilots lose thier job because of scope returns it will not be their choice...

Many were even furloughed. That is the risk.

for every pilot...

So let me get this straight, you want to increase pay and mitigate risk?

Not sure where you factor in risk... again the regional pilots lose thier jobs not at their own doing... you seem to not grasp this...

At the expense of whom? Management will surely take that out of mainline pilots' pockets. So who do you expect to pay for your proposal? Where will the concessions come from? Why don't you ask all of the junior regional FO's who will benefit by their newly found upgrade. The idea is just ridiculous...

Yogi

Again... what do you say to the ALPA pilots who are furloughed becuase of scope reversal? So sad too bad? Why? Just cuz?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I tell you what, Rez. How about if I get furloughed (ie. lose my job), your company has to pay me a rate higher than you are currently making. It's only fair since my hourly rate is far higher than yours. It shouldn't matter that you've been at your regional for umpteen years. All that matters is that my current pay should have value at your regional.

I don't think this would happen next week... eventhe most junior pilots at ML would be senior than the regional pilot that came over...

In your example of a 15 year RJ getting ratio'd at year 5 pay, you find it eminently fair that a pilot who never took a chance on his career should be rewarded with an enhanced pay scale.

Yes because he lost his job due to no fault of his own...

Potentially there are pilots who left that exact same carrier 4 years prior that would then be making less than some RJ captain who stayed at his relatively high pay scale and never took a chance or the initial pay cut. You find that fair, right?

Yet that RJ Capt would be junior... he would never make Capt before any current ML pilots...all the best FO seats would be awarded in to the ML pilots first in seniorty order...

You are asking to come to my carrier at a higher rate than I am currently on right now. But if I were to get furloughed, I doubt you would find it fair for me to be hired as a new hire at your company with a payscale higher than yours. Your idea of what is "fair" is well off of center of the Bell curve. I just hope that you are trying to stir the pot and don't truly believe the drivel you are typing.

The difference is the ML pilots are furloughed because their fellow pilots voted scope away.... the RJ Capt is furloughed because another pilot group took scope back...

Again, how are you harmed.. you just seem mad becasue you feel someone is getting something by you.... you will always have seniority over the RJ CA.......

 

[bluefin]

I don't think this would happen next week... eventhe most junior pilots at ML would be senior than the regional pilot that came over...

Yes because he lost his job due to no fault of his own...


Yet that RJ Capt would be junior... he would never make Capt before any current ML pilots...all the best FO seats would be awarded in to the ML pilots first in seniorty order...



The difference is the ML pilots are furloughed because their fellow pilots voted scope away.... the RJ Capt is furloughed because another pilot group took scope back...

Again, how are you harmed.. you just seem mad becasue you feel someone is getting something by you.... you will always have seniority over the RJ CA.......

Too damn bad that things you do in life are a risk and things happen that are out of your control. Another main line guy is furloughed and a regional pilot is hired the circle goes around. No ALPA regional has come knocking on my door to offer me a job to work for them. So I don't think main line should have to offer them anything. As far as being an alpa member, I don't see any high flying banner out saying, "we are going to give preferential interviews to furloughed members". Bottom line, if a regional guy gets furloughed if and when I get my job back, oh f'ing well, let them suffer and endure the bs I and 1436 other pilots have endured.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I've been sitting on the sidelines for this so far, but i'm gonna chime in now that i've seen alot of mainline guys who've come from us lowly regional jet operators clearly forgetting where they came from. YOU GUYS GAVE US THESE JETS. We didn't undercut any of you to get them. We were on your list via the flow through.

Since I work for Express Jet, plz allow me to speak as an Express Jet pilot. CAL wholly-owned us, everything from seniority numbers, CCS access, coair, uniforms, training etc was done to their standards and, with few exceptions, their employees. The IAH chief pilot for us was a bloody CAL flow up with recall rights till 2k8.

There was a flow-up/flow-down agreement in place that worked until you guys pussied up and wouldn't renew it after we voted in alpa over that faggot ass IACP scab factory of a union and got a contract better, much better, than yours (see Contract 04 work rules). A second year FO at XJT made more per hr than a first yr CAL FO on the 757. You guys spun us off to pay for your bankruptcy, then your executives have driven us almost into the dirt. Be it Mr Peanut Head Kellner or that blue blood prick from the Ivy Leagues, Smisek. We didn't do a thing to ya'll but provide extremely good feed for your hubs. Then you had to bring in chataqua and then give Colgan 80000 seat turboprops....

Anyway, if you want the flying we do back, fine, take it with my blessing, but don't sit their on your Righteous Boeing Cloud and reign down judgements on us, more than 40 percent of the Cal list came from Express. We wanted to be one list but you guys thought you were too good to fly something made in Brazil. That's fine too, but don't act like the reason you're still operating under concessionary contracts since 02 is because of us. If you need a person to blame, you need only look in a mirror...or at your MEC.

As for United being the pinnacle of experience and professionalism...ok, how many 300 hr chicks and minorities did ya'll hire in the 97-2000 era? Yeah, let's not forget about them or the SIU interns, etc who didn't even have an ATP you picked up. Admittedly they are likely furloughed now, but that notwithstanding, your poo doesn't exactly smell like roses, bro.

Well said....The truth hurts, but the mainline MEC's and ALPA made this bed....

 

[JoeMerchant]

It' time to turn the big ship around.....

Actually, the time to turn the ship around was 15 years ago....Now that you have hit the iceberg you want to turn the ship around....too late...We can rearrange the chairs on the deck if you would like, but it's far too late to turn the ship around....

 

[Mr Hat]

I've been sitting on the sidelines for this so far, but i'm gonna chime in now that i've seen alot of mainline guys who've come from us lowly regional jet operators clearly forgetting where they came from. YOU GUYS GAVE US THESE JETS. We didn't undercut any of you to get them. We were on your list via the flow through.

Since I work for Express Jet, plz allow me to speak as an Express Jet pilot. CAL wholly-owned us, everything from seniority numbers, CCS access, coair, uniforms, training etc was done to their standards and, with few exceptions, their employees. The IAH chief pilot for us was a bloody CAL flow up with recall rights till 2k8.

There was a flow-up/flow-down agreement in place that worked until you guys pussied up and wouldn't renew it after we voted in alpa over that faggot ass IACP scab factory of a union and got a contract better, much better, than yours (see Contract 04 work rules). A second year FO at XJT made more per hr than a first yr CAL FO on the 757. You guys spun us off to pay for your bankruptcy, then your executives have driven us almost into the dirt. Be it Mr Peanut Head Kellner or that blue blood prick from the Ivy Leagues, Smisek. We didn't do a thing to ya'll but provide extremely good feed for your hubs. Then you had to bring in chataqua and then give Colgan 80000 seat turboprops....

Anyway, if you want the flying we do back, fine, take it with my blessing, but don't sit their on your Righteous Boeing Cloud and reign down judgements on us, more than 40 percent of the Cal list came from Express. We wanted to be one list but you guys thought you were too good to fly something made in Brazil. That's fine too, but don't act like the reason you're still operating under concessionary contracts since 02 is because of us. If you need a person to blame, you need only look in a mirror...or at your MEC.

As for United being the pinnacle of experience and professionalism...ok, how many 300 hr chicks and minorities did ya'll hire in the 97-2000 era? Yeah, let's not forget about them or the SIU interns, etc who didn't even have an ATP you picked up. Admittedly they are likely furloughed now, but that notwithstanding, your poo doesn't exactly smell like roses, bro.

From a fellow Expressjet guy who saw it happen too......the above about sums it up. Day late and a dollar short guys. We could have changed this industry, 6 years ago. Now it is what it is.