UAL MEC tough stance on Scope---keep it up!

[sleeves]

It's gotta make economic sense. IMHO, even if mainline pilots were paid regional rates to fly them, the mainline cost structure is too high in comprison. I'm talking rampers (both number of, and pay), mechanics, FAs, cleaners, etc. I just can't fathom that these other groups would go along just to help out a bunch of, "whiny-a$$ed, overpaid pilots".

I personally think 99 seats will be the magic number.

I will give you the mechanics and the F/A's, although an agreement can be worked out where we use different F/A's for that part of the operation much like we do with our Guam base. The F/a's are on a completely different list with different contracts. The cleaners, and rampers are already contracted out for the most part already on the CAL side and I expect that will carry over to UAL. The same people that clean us and park us do so interchangeably. We would save money by eliminating the profit we pay your company to do the work.

The reason MGT. wants Express types is because of the power to control the groups with the whipsaw. They will not be happy until all of the flying is outsourced. 99 seats LOL, Why stop there?

 

[jonjuan]

The United MEC Chairman just said I'm not as good and not as professional....

Try just for once not being a lemming......

You're not, simple fact. Go through the process of getting hired at a major and then you can talk. Until then, you're not only not in the same league, you're not in the same ballpark.

 

[johnsonrod]

You're not, simple fact. Go through the process of getting hired at a major and then you can talk. Until then, you're not only not in the same league, you're not in the same ballpark.

Joe thinks he has a good deal where he is at, and doesn't want to start over. The problem is, the regional industry is changing in front of him, and he can't see it. New FAA rules, hiring standards, and now mainline MECs wanting flying back. It's obvious to me, and I want to be a part of it eventually.

 

[Dornier 335]

Scope ... My Bad

To Be Politically Correct (in C-major): (cough)

Sh!t happens!

Major, Regional, 135, Foreign, Flight Instructor*. And some of this sh!t can kill you.


*Except when you work for the FAA.

 

[flyboy9967]

Not that I care but you keep saying that a BK judge made you do it. When did crj's start flying for Delta? Were you guys in BK at that time? If not, isn't that giving up scope all on your own? I kinda started to look it all up but then I didn't.

Benny,

I guess a BK judge had NOTHING to do with any loss of Scope, right? And, many 50 seaters are taking care of themselves right now, just going off to the desert. 22 Freedom ERJs were just parked, and many ex-RJ routes are now back to mainline (like ATL--GRR, and ATL--FNT) And, that domestic product gets better every day, and is ten times better than your Cattle Car at SWA. Ever seen a liveTV (Dish Network) in any of your seats? Probably not. But hey, you don't charge for bags! (and don't reap the profits either) Just think, if you did, you could use more money to make better TV Commercials. You really need to.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

Alpa needs to break off into two parts, one for Majors or Legacies, and the other for Regionals

This is easily the dumbest thing I've seen posted here in some time. Unity through division? Success through segregation? Good luck with that. If we are ever going to rebuild this profession, we need to stick together, not break everybody apart. It is possible for FFD pilots and mainline pilots to work together, but you need to check your ego at the door, and people like Joey need to check their inferiority complexes at the door.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Not that I care but you keep saying that a BK judge made you do it. When did crj's start flying for Delta? Were you guys in BK at that time? If not, isn't that giving up scope all on your own? I kinda started to look it all up but then I didn't.

Standard selective memory from the General. 1000+ Delta pilots were on the street and ASA and CMR were growing 30% per year well before BK. Contract 2K (and before) allowed for this, not the BK concession.

Admission is the first step General.

 

[CFIT]

Joe,

Alpa needs to break off into two parts, one for Majors or Legacies, and the other for Regionals, so there is no perceived conflict of interest. e

Are you kidding, it's the only thing he has said that has ever made sense?

The only thing better would be for there to be a completely separate union for the regionals.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

You're not, sIimple fact. Go through the process of getting hired at a major and then you can talk. Until then, you're not only not in the same league, you're not in the same ballpark.

Not in the same ballpark because why? Heck, DL just hired some arm candy who really don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to flying. What you don't realize is that you're just a schmoe like everyone else who jumped through the hoops and didn't fall flat. Congrats, but that's all the hiring process is- to make sure you're not a total D-bag, but plenty of mainline pilots seem to have slipped through somehow. Don't lump everyone into the Colgan 3407 profile because one size doesn't fit all regional operators or their crew. 9k+ hours in barbie jets should get me an interview I think, but then again, I could be overqualified and junior to the 2000 hour wonders. I'm not sure I even give a hoot anymore about being on "the list".

 

[Dornier 335]

Alpa needs to break off into two parts, one for Majors or Legacies, and the other for Regionals

Unofficially, ALPA has already been divided into two parts, but not for the regionals favor. When Trans States pilots voted to str!ke in '99 or 2000, their MEC was pressured by many mainline union members to call it off in order to protect TWA back then. But he stood strong, and Uncle H gave in.

From my experience, most mainline guys couldn't give a flying f&ck about the regionals or where they came from. Now that they are in, they behave like snobbish aristocrats.

(Never mind, questioning some of their companies' hiring practices...blond, boobs, low time)

 

[N2264J]

You're not [as good], simple fact. Go through the process of getting hired at a major and then you can talk. Until then, you're not only not in the same league, you're not in the same ballpark.

And this kind of bigotry is why ALPA will never be anything more than an abject failure.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joe Dirtchant:
No, they didn't land on a taxiway or fly past MSP. They (regional pilots) killed 50 people taking off on the wrong runway in LEX, they, killed even more innocent people in BUF when not adding power when extending flaps and gear in a turbo prop airplane.
When you bought your job at ASA, you were setting a precedence that it didn't matter what kind of qualifications you had, just as long as you were dumb enough to pay for that pathetic job you have. Then of course in true Joe Merchant fashion, tried to sue what you couldn't get through the interview process.

Well unfortunately... that is what he missed.....

The fatality rate at the regionals is certainly higher than the majors...

Not because of the pilots directly, but because of the economics. Let's face it... from the Colgan accident, CAL is not directly liable... it is kinda like Wall Street and Corp America... find a way to socialize the losses and privatize the gains....

The regionals are all about being on the cheap... and the by product is a Senior Club.... these guys get into the training dept, get cushy schedules, treat new hires like recruits in Full Metal Jacket and basically use the transient pilots looking to move on, as fodder and a buffer to keep an unfair and artificial pay and QOL structure in place for themselves...

What his issue is really about... ego and a special carve out....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is a dangerous generalization. I can think of enough accidents involving mainline pilots. Western landing on the closed runway in Mexico City (MMMX). Singapore Airliners taking off a closed runway in Changi (WWWS). BA recently making a intersection takeoff @ TKPK. The fact that the adove mentioned incidents and errors (BA, DL and NWA) didn't kill anybody is luck. Every pilot group has its good, bad and "wrong place @ the wrong time" pilots. This mainline vs. regional debate reminds me of six-year old boys in the changing room saying that "mine's bigger than yours".

Keep it in the same area... Western was a long time ago... not sure if Sing Air is comparable....

The regionals grew up in the 90s and matured in the 2000s.... Looking at the accident rate between regionals and majors in this time frame.......

Again it is not the pilots... it is the whole culture of outsourcing and trying to do something on the cheap.....

Mainline pilots failed miserably when giving up scope...... that is part of the problem..... UAL contract 2000 had alluring pay rates and scope concessions to go with it... very bad. Same with DAL.... yet CAL held on 50 seat scope... good for them....

As a country.. we have to decide what we want? A safe National Airpace System.. Or a Casino for investors call the airline industry....

Where is the pilot training going to come from in the next 10-20 years? If the majors are hurting for pilots where are the regionals going to get pilots? Guest worker permits? One could even imagine an FAA National Pilot Academy that is ab initio style to train US airline pilots... of course it will be outsourced... to ALL ATPS, or Flight Safety... etc....

Sorry for the ALPA National plug, but there are going to be radical changes in the near future. How are we going to work effectively with govt and industry to address these changes?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Bottom line is Joe Dirt does not have a seat at the table. Period.. Hell, he is not even inside the diner. He is on the sidewalk looking through the window. Decisions are being made that will affect him and he will have no say. He is scared and rightfully so.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We see a sort of example (not perfect, but a baby step) in the way the Delta MEC went to bat for the Compass and Mesaba pilots as those carriers were divested from Delta. While the plan to preserve flow through rights for participants failed to protect the jobs (the flying is still outsourced) at least the individual pilots employment rights were fought for by our union.

What about the Champion pilots... they seem to have been left out to pasture...... ? Could they have too, have employment rights fought for? Not sure the answer... looking for your opinion...

ALPA is going to have to learn the value of unity. If they can grasp the basics, they will understand the need to develop seniority plans which bridge operators and certificates to maintain a labor monopoly.

Not sure if seniority will carry over but a longevity formula... So, a super senior regional pilot with say 15 years seniority can come over to a legacy... for seniority he'll start at the bottom, but for pay purposes.. he can start at 5 year pay... The big question is... how to get management to agree to this... I'd think a labor friendly govt would help....

The other big question will be... can the ego's of senior regional pilots take the seniority hit (JM pulling gear for General Lee) all while JM in the short term might take a pay hit, but in the long terms earns more income and increases QOL and benefits... than he ever would at his feeder/vendor company...

If we agree on that course, then the next step is to develop bidding systems with adequate protections which allow Joe to fly his RJ into the sunset, Lee to fly his 767 and folks like me to bid either when opportunities arise.

So does JM apply to mainline (for his sake, let's hope SWA style employee comments don't factor...) or does he simply get a mainline seniority number. Me thinks it would be the former.... regional pilots would have to apply. This would be better because it would allow regionals and mainline companys to interview pilots who really want to be there.. instead of pilots and company being compelled for whatever reasons..

So how does the desire to create a Regional Air Line Pilots union, or in house unions factor into all of this? It would seem to me, that if we are all one union, it would be much easier... again.. sorry for the ALPA National plug... but if you have a Regional Pilot Union President, ALPA National President, CAPA President and whoever else all jockeying for the attention of govt... it can get ugly.....


Big changes coming.... should we get our get our house in order??