UAL MEC tough stance on Scope---keep it up!

[IAHERJ]

I've been sitting on the sidelines for this so far, but i'm gonna chime in now that i've seen alot of mainline guys who've come from us lowly regional jet operators clearly forgetting where they came from. YOU GUYS GAVE US THESE JETS. We didn't undercut any of you to get them. We were on your list via the flow through.

Since I work for Express Jet, plz allow me to speak as an Express Jet pilot. CAL wholly-owned us, everything from seniority numbers, CCS access, coair, uniforms, training etc was done to their standards and, with few exceptions, their employees. The IAH chief pilot for us was a bloody CAL flow up with recall rights till 2k8.

There was a flow-up/flow-down agreement in place that worked until you guys pussied up and wouldn't renew it after we voted in alpa over that faggot ass IACP scab factory of a union and got a contract better, much better, than yours (see Contract 04 work rules). A second year FO at XJT made more per hr than a first yr CAL FO on the 757. You guys spun us off to pay for your bankruptcy, then your executives have driven us almost into the dirt. Be it Mr Peanut Head Kellner or that blue blood prick from the Ivy Leagues, Smisek. We didn't do a thing to ya'll but provide extremely good feed for your hubs. Then you had to bring in chataqua and then give Colgan 80000 seat turboprops....

Anyway, if you want the flying we do back, fine, take it with my blessing, but don't sit their on your Righteous Boeing Cloud and reign down judgements on us, more than 40 percent of the Cal list came from Express. We wanted to be one list but you guys thought you were too good to fly something made in Brazil. That's fine too, but don't act like the reason you're still operating under concessionary contracts since 02 is because of us. If you need a person to blame, you need only look in a mirror...or at your MEC.

As for United being the pinnacle of experience and professionalism...ok, how many 300 hr chicks and minorities did ya'll hire in the 97-2000 era? Yeah, let's not forget about them or the SIU interns, etc who didn't even have an ATP you picked up. Admittedly they are likely furloughed now, but that notwithstanding, your poo doesn't exactly smell like roses, bro.

I'll bite. As a former COEX pilot let me first say that if you remember the wholly owned days then you either had the chance to flow up or at least apply on the last hiring spree at CAL. You either didn't get picked up or chose to stay. Your choice if you did. Some of us took chances on leaving Express(jet) for something better. Hell, I left for AirTran in 2003 then left that comfort zone in 2005 for CAL. That's two chances I took on my career and you are nuts if you think I or anyone else owes you a thing because we once used to be on your list.

Your arguments hold no water as the flying you are currently doing is not even in the sights of the UAL/CAL mec to begin with. 50 seat flying is yours. Enjoy it as long as you wish. It is the 70 seat flying and up that we are going to slowly get back to mainline flying. If that means that some of us will have to fly an Embraer, so be it. It's not like we are having to fly the Embraers of past. The 170 and up are supposedly nice aircraft but I think we'll eventually order the new C-series jets as permanent replacements for the CRJ-700's and ERJ-170's currently being flown as United Express. They can order 80 seat and up and offer 1st class seating etc. and the pilots flying for the ALPA carriers that will be affected, should be offered preferential interviews at UAL.

 

[chqflyer]

This entire thread is asinine even by FI standards. Why the ******************** should any regional pilot expect any special treatment regarding pay, longevity or seniority at any legacy carrier. You put in your app, wait by the phone, try to pass the interview and maybe get a job. That's how it works. Taking up space at a regional for 10+ years does not entitle you to jack ********************.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, MGT. Are the people that are going to need to be convinced. To be honest, it is going to be very hard to get the flying back. Mainline pilots will sacrifice pay and work rules. We may need to strike. If you believe that I am going to give up pay and benefits so that a guy that does not want to make the sacrifices that I made have it easy I will not.

To defeat yourself before the game has started....

Again... how is ALPA supposed to respond? Thier members, RJ pilots, who have simply been flying lift that ML pilots didn't want are suddenly out of a job due to no fault of thier own....

Again.. how are you harmed?

If the regionals keep expanding this profession will never amount to jack. The whipsaw is destroying the regional industry. I am willing to sacrifice to get rid of the whipsaw, to make this profession better for everyone in the long term. Why should I be the only one though.

You aren't... what about the RJ pilot who simply flew unwanted ML lift.. did it well and is now suddenly out of a job...

The bottom line is that as a Mainline pilot I will not approve a contract that relieves my CAL scope. That is what I am willing to do to get rid of MGT'S whipsaw. What are the regional pilots going to do to get rid of it? So far it sounds like nothing, the are just making demands.

The regional pilots will be losing thier jobs becasue of the scope reversal...

Ok..


If RJ pilots can bing over longevity (not seniority) and ML pilots are not harmed and it cost ML pilots nothing in negotiation capital... is this acceptable? If not....why?

 

[pilotkppsg]

I don't expect a goddamn thing from United. Nor would I want anything from that carrier. My career goals never where to stay at Xjt for as long as I've been here, however, senior ALPA quorum lobbied and....got age 65 passed. Basically the upper echelons of our mutual union pretty much put everyone hoping to move on into an ice tray, pissed in the ice tray and stuffed us in the freezer for 5 years to pay for their short-sighted and in many cases selfish and foolish finical decisions. They are making me pay 5 more years of my career to cover their alimony. I see the other side of this argument: Europe rules, economy crumbled, lost pension, gave up 40% annual base salary, etc. But that's how it rolls, ALPA eats it's young. Now when these 65 year olds start retiring and dropping dead from flying so much in their golden years across the pond at night, don't blame us, y'all wanted it. Hope the boat, 3rd wife, private school tuition in Kenosha, Germantown, PeachTree City, the Woodlands or whatever suburb, were worth it.

 

[maru657]

fascinating arguments on all sides here but at least the main issue is being addressed, and that is with multiple seniority lists, there is no cohesion. In other words, in order for pilots to have more control within this industry, there must be single seniority lists at each carrier. Within that framework there should exist enough numbers for cohesive political action. However, everyone must have a seat at the table or you will continue to have groups feeling displaced with no other option but to take whatever steps benifit them directly.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

True...and who was responsible for not getting a national senority list way back in the 40s and 50's....hmm I wonder who? It begins with the letter A and ends with the letter A. Can you guess who?

 

[slackass]

The ship is sinking and there are only enough lifeboats for half.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Said in an earlier post:

"As for United being the pinnacle of experience and professionalism...ok, how many 300 hr chicks and minorities did ya'll hire in the 97-2000 era? Yeah, let's not forget about them or the SIU interns, etc who didn't even have an ATP you picked up. Admittedly they are likely furloughed now, but that notwithstanding, your poo doesn't exactly smell like roses, bro."


In the 97'-2000 era we hired VERY few 300 hour "chicks" In fact in was mostly Military and high time (2000+ PIC Turbine/5000TT) Commuter bubba's and bubbet's.

I dont know of ANYONE that was hired without the ATP since the mins were 1500TT from 1997 on.....I believe the ATP was required in 1999 but I may be wrong. My class in 1999 we had 20, and only 1...count em....ONE CHICK and she was a G-4 Capt flying Coporate the rest were Military Heavy Transport or Single seat fighter....all of us had more than 1500 hours. NO INTERNS IN MY CLASS.

XJT hired a fair share of low time inmature kids....so what is the point? Be careful where you throw stones in that glass house kid!

 

[sleeves]

If RJ pilots can bing over longevity (not seniority) and ML pilots are not harmed and it cost ML pilots nothing in negotiation capital... is this acceptable? If not....why?

The only way it will cost mainline pilots nothing is if Regional guys bargin for this themselves. We will be bringing up first year pay and giving insurance sooner in our next contract, something that will cost us at the table. I am in favor of that, but if you want more you will have to bargain for it yourself.

 

[Chairman]

The only way it will cost mainline pilots nothing is if Regional guys bargin for this themselves. We will be bringing up first year pay and giving insurance sooner in our next contract, something that will cost us at the table. I am in favor of that, but if you want more you will have to bargain for it yourself.

Yeah you will welcome to UAL benefits start in the first month. And they were paid for by the company!

 

[pilotkppsg]

Dude, express jet alone sent an assload of 500 hr chicks to united in 2000, it happened alot. They'd come in, get about 3-400 hrs in the beech or 120 in CLE then bounce to y'all.
To answer your question, my point is that a fine many Internet toughguy mainline pilots spout off on here and got their junk half-hard thinking their gonna get yalls 2000 contract back and bring all the 70 seaters under one blanket. That's great, I love the enthusiasm and hope y'all can pull it off without gutting work rules and pay. Now my argument comes when statements like your MEC chair made or some of the other heroes on here saying that we as regional pilots are bringing down the profession, costing you guys bargaining power and are no good behind the yoke. I call bs on that. I call alot of bs on that and know it's gonna fall on deaf ears because that's how weak ass ALPA plays ball.

 

[Chairman]

As of 1998 you had to meet the ATP minimums to get hired at UAL......There were plenty hired in the late 80ies and early 90ies though

 

[Flopgut]

Rez: Did you get my PM?

 

[eaglesview]

Dude, express jet alone sent an assload of 500 hr chicks to united in 2000, it happened alot. They'd come in, get about 3-400 hrs in the beech or 120 in CLE then bounce to y'all.
To answer your question, my point is that a fine many Internet toughguy mainline pilots spout off on here and got their junk half-hard thinking their gonna get yalls 2000 contract back and bring all the 70 seaters under one blanket. That's great, I love the enthusiasm and hope y'all can pull it off without gutting work rules and pay. Now my argument comes when statements like your MEC chair made or some of the other heroes on here saying that we as regional pilots are bringing down the profession, costing you guys bargaining power and are no good behind the yoke. I call bs on that. I call alot of bs on that and know it's gonna fall on deaf ears because that's how weak ass ALPA plays ball.

Hmmm can't imagine why anyone would think you are unprofessional.

 

[list2002]

Crickets chirping in background... something must be up.

 

[Morning Wood]

Look at Skywest. They were able to buy ASA, Expressjet, Frontier, and Midwest.

A lot of emotion and opinions on these boards being formed by misinformation. SkyWest did not buy Frontier or Midwest. They were bought by Republic Holdings.

 

[thruthemurk]

Just for the sake of historical accuracy...United was sued in the mid 1980's by a handful of women pilots who applied and were not hired. United lost the lawsuit and were mandated by the courts to hire one non (white male) for every one white male hired for two years. This could be a woman or minority pilot. Prior to his lawsuit there were very few non white male airline pilots. Statistically there were also very few ATP rated pilots in the US that were not white males.

The resolution took place in 1989 and 1990, and the infamous Nancy Stuke was hired to run the pilot hiring department for the next decade. Even after the two year window - hiring practices obviously did not return to the past. They were revised at other airlines as well when they realized they were vulnerable to the same lawsuits. Count the number of women pilots at Delta, American, Southwest and Fedex prior to 1990 - I doubt there were 30 between all four of these carriers. Minorities a similar story.

As a result of this US Federal court ruling - there were a group of pilots hired with lower times than the prevailing norm. This same situation occurred in the mid 1960's when United could not find qualified airline pilot candidates due to the Vietnam war. They went around to college campuses, "enlisting" engineering students with the offer of a job if they would get their commercial rating by the following year Furthermore,l they paid them for the rating and hired them when they got it. This group had a stellar career track and paid almost NO dues. The vast majority of these pilots gained the experience and were perfectly fine in the airline system.

Later pilots spent a decade in the FE seat or FO seat (or both when things slowed down in the 80's and 90's, and had no career progression even though they had paid huge dues and were eminently qualified when hired.

There were a statistical handful of the first group that made it though training and should not have - and they have been a legal hassle ever since. It is this extremely small group that pilots with a chip on their shoulder or a stalled career like to refer to when explaining the raw deal they have. When I was hired at United in the late 90's, it was interesting to scan the dozens of photos of all the new hire classes and realize that despite the rhetoric and forced hiring revisions - the VAST majority of pilots hired at United were white males. I am sure that an overwhelming number of ATP's being white males was a fundamental cause.

In any case there will always be opportunities for non-white males that pursue the profession as their diversity is just one more arrow in the quiver when trying to stand out from the herd.

PS I am a white American of Irish descent and proud of it. There was a day when dogs and Irishmen weren't allowed in restaurants in the city of Boston.

Things change. Life isn't fair. Deal with it.

 

[doh]

Murk, there was a time when the Irish were sent to America as slaves.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: Did you get my PM?

Yes, I replied but you are configured not to receive messages.. maybe I'm on your ignore list... try again?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Murk, there was a time when the Irish were sent to America as slaves.

At least they brought good beer.....