UAL MEC tough stance on Scope---keep it up!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You gotta get off of that one. 1437 Still waiting for alpa's obligation to the furloughed mainline guys. The above quote is a perfect example of the "CONFLICT OF INTEREST" which lies in the union. How can alpa support both sides? there is no support now. When the time comes just get in line and interview like everyone else. Once again as I was told, "furlough builds character". As a double furloughee through no fault of my own, I knew the risk. Please answer the question.

I never stated that any RJ pilot would go ahead of the 1437. The RJ pilot must apply and interview.. most 15 year RJ pilots are so out of touch from the job market, havven't touched a log book in decades, got hired on when their regional was a mom and pop operation and their buddy Ricky Bobby got them the job....

How does this compare to the National Seniority List arguement? Pilots want credit for time served......

In addition, if senior RJ pilots want to try and game the system and wait for a pick slip to get their longevity credit they are losing seniority. Whereas if they updated thier log book, learned to interview, finish thier four year degree and apply now, they will have more seniority... then waiting for thier sandbox to crumble...

There is no seniority gain here... The longevity credit isn't a windfall like many seem to think it is.... consider it like a tax break or corporate subsidy....

 

[SuperFLUF]

That's going to be a tough sell to the 30-40% of us who have decided to make this a career and have good schedules....I'm willing to listen to your "offer", but getting stapled to the bottom of your list is a non starter....Not interested in commuting as a reserve FO.....

Feels good to be the big fish in the puddle?

 

[sleeves]

I never stated that any RJ pilot would go ahead of the 1437. The RJ pilot must apply and interview.. most 15 year RJ pilots are so out of touch from the job market, havven't touched a log book in decades, got hired on when their regional was a mom and pop operation and their buddy Ricky Bobby got them the job....

How does this compare to the National Seniority List arguement? Pilots want credit for time served......

In addition, if senior RJ pilots want to try and game the system and wait for a pick slip to get their longevity credit they are losing seniority. Whereas if they updated thier log book, learned to interview, finish thier four year degree and apply now, they will have more seniority... then waiting for thier sandbox to crumble...

There is no seniority gain here... The longevity credit isn't a windfall like many seem to think it is.... consider it like a tax break or corporate subsidy....

Rez, MGT. Are the people that are going to need to be convinced. To be honest, it is going to be very hard to get the flying back. Mainline pilots will sacrifice pay and work rules. We may need to strike. If you believe that I am going to give up pay and benefits so that a guy that does not want to make the sacrifices that I made have it easy I will not. If the regionals keep expanding this profession will never amount to jack. The whipsaw is destroying the regional industry. I am willing to sacrifice to get rid of the whipsaw, to make this profession better for everyone in the long term. Why should I be the only one though.

The bottom line is that as a Mainline pilot I will not approve a contract that relieves my CAL scope. That is what I am willing to do to get rid of MGT'S whipsaw. What are the regional pilots going to do to get rid of it? So far it sounds like nothing, the are just making demands.

 

[jonjuan]

Feels good to be the big fish in the puddle?

Meanwhile, the O2 levels in the puddle are quickly going bye bye.

 

[Jetjockey]

What Joe doesn't realize is that he doesn't have a seat at the table. It's up to the negotiating committee and the new UAL management. You're destiny is being controlled by other entities.

 

[IAHERJ]

I've been sitting on the sidelines for this so far, but i'm gonna chime in now that i've seen alot of mainline guys who've come from us lowly regional jet operators clearly forgetting where they came from. YOU GUYS GAVE US THESE JETS. We didn't undercut any of you to get them. We were on your list via the flow through.

Since I work for Express Jet, plz allow me to speak as an Express Jet pilot. CAL wholly-owned us, everything from seniority numbers, CCS access, coair, uniforms, training etc was done to their standards and, with few exceptions, their employees. The IAH chief pilot for us was a bloody CAL flow up with recall rights till 2k8.

There was a flow-up/flow-down agreement in place that worked until you guys pussied up and wouldn't renew it after we voted in alpa over that faggot ass IACP scab factory of a union and got a contract better, much better, than yours (see Contract 04 work rules). A second year FO at XJT made more per hr than a first yr CAL FO on the 757. You guys spun us off to pay for your bankruptcy, then your executives have driven us almost into the dirt. Be it Mr Peanut Head Kellner or that blue blood prick from the Ivy Leagues, Smisek. We didn't do a thing to ya'll but provide extremely good feed for your hubs. Then you had to bring in chataqua and then give Colgan 80000 seat turboprops....

Anyway, if you want the flying we do back, fine, take it with my blessing, but don't sit their on your Righteous Boeing Cloud and reign down judgements on us, more than 40 percent of the Cal list came from Express. We wanted to be one list but you guys thought you were too good to fly something made in Brazil. That's fine too, but don't act like the reason you're still operating under concessionary contracts since 02 is because of us. If you need a person to blame, you need only look in a mirror...or at your MEC.

As for United being the pinnacle of experience and professionalism...ok, how many 300 hr chicks and minorities did ya'll hire in the 97-2000 era? Yeah, let's not forget about them or the SIU interns, etc who didn't even have an ATP you picked up. Admittedly they are likely furloughed now, but that notwithstanding, your poo doesn't exactly smell like roses, bro.

I'll bite. As a former COEX pilot let me first say that if you remember the wholly owned days then you either had the chance to flow up or at least apply on the last hiring spree at CAL. You either didn't get picked up or chose to stay. Your choice if you did. Some of us took chances on leaving Express(jet) for something better. Hell, I left for AirTran in 2003 then left that comfort zone in 2005 for CAL. That's two chances I took on my career and you are nuts if you think I or anyone else owes you a thing because we once used to be on your list.

Your arguments hold no water as the flying you are currently doing is not even in the sights of the UAL/CAL mec to begin with. 50 seat flying is yours. Enjoy it as long as you wish. It is the 70 seat flying and up that we are going to slowly get back to mainline flying. If that means that some of us will have to fly an Embraer, so be it. It's not like we are having to fly the Embraers of past. The 170 and up are supposedly nice aircraft but I think we'll eventually order the new C-series jets as permanent replacements for the CRJ-700's and ERJ-170's currently being flown as United Express. They can order 80 seat and up and offer 1st class seating etc. and the pilots flying for the ALPA carriers that will be affected, should be offered preferential interviews at UAL.

 

[chqflyer]

This entire thread is asinine even by FI standards. Why the ******************** should any regional pilot expect any special treatment regarding pay, longevity or seniority at any legacy carrier. You put in your app, wait by the phone, try to pass the interview and maybe get a job. That's how it works. Taking up space at a regional for 10+ years does not entitle you to jack ********************.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, MGT. Are the people that are going to need to be convinced. To be honest, it is going to be very hard to get the flying back. Mainline pilots will sacrifice pay and work rules. We may need to strike. If you believe that I am going to give up pay and benefits so that a guy that does not want to make the sacrifices that I made have it easy I will not.

To defeat yourself before the game has started....

Again... how is ALPA supposed to respond? Thier members, RJ pilots, who have simply been flying lift that ML pilots didn't want are suddenly out of a job due to no fault of thier own....

Again.. how are you harmed?

If the regionals keep expanding this profession will never amount to jack. The whipsaw is destroying the regional industry. I am willing to sacrifice to get rid of the whipsaw, to make this profession better for everyone in the long term. Why should I be the only one though.

You aren't... what about the RJ pilot who simply flew unwanted ML lift.. did it well and is now suddenly out of a job...

The bottom line is that as a Mainline pilot I will not approve a contract that relieves my CAL scope. That is what I am willing to do to get rid of MGT'S whipsaw. What are the regional pilots going to do to get rid of it? So far it sounds like nothing, the are just making demands.

The regional pilots will be losing thier jobs becasue of the scope reversal...

Ok..


If RJ pilots can bing over longevity (not seniority) and ML pilots are not harmed and it cost ML pilots nothing in negotiation capital... is this acceptable? If not....why?

 

[pilotkppsg]

I don't expect a goddamn thing from United. Nor would I want anything from that carrier. My career goals never where to stay at Xjt for as long as I've been here, however, senior ALPA quorum lobbied and....got age 65 passed. Basically the upper echelons of our mutual union pretty much put everyone hoping to move on into an ice tray, pissed in the ice tray and stuffed us in the freezer for 5 years to pay for their short-sighted and in many cases selfish and foolish finical decisions. They are making me pay 5 more years of my career to cover their alimony. I see the other side of this argument: Europe rules, economy crumbled, lost pension, gave up 40% annual base salary, etc. But that's how it rolls, ALPA eats it's young. Now when these 65 year olds start retiring and dropping dead from flying so much in their golden years across the pond at night, don't blame us, y'all wanted it. Hope the boat, 3rd wife, private school tuition in Kenosha, Germantown, PeachTree City, the Woodlands or whatever suburb, were worth it.

 

[maru657]

fascinating arguments on all sides here but at least the main issue is being addressed, and that is with multiple seniority lists, there is no cohesion. In other words, in order for pilots to have more control within this industry, there must be single seniority lists at each carrier. Within that framework there should exist enough numbers for cohesive political action. However, everyone must have a seat at the table or you will continue to have groups feeling displaced with no other option but to take whatever steps benifit them directly.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

True...and who was responsible for not getting a national senority list way back in the 40s and 50's....hmm I wonder who? It begins with the letter A and ends with the letter A. Can you guess who?

 

[slackass]

The ship is sinking and there are only enough lifeboats for half.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Said in an earlier post:

"As for United being the pinnacle of experience and professionalism...ok, how many 300 hr chicks and minorities did ya'll hire in the 97-2000 era? Yeah, let's not forget about them or the SIU interns, etc who didn't even have an ATP you picked up. Admittedly they are likely furloughed now, but that notwithstanding, your poo doesn't exactly smell like roses, bro."


In the 97'-2000 era we hired VERY few 300 hour "chicks" In fact in was mostly Military and high time (2000+ PIC Turbine/5000TT) Commuter bubba's and bubbet's.

I dont know of ANYONE that was hired without the ATP since the mins were 1500TT from 1997 on.....I believe the ATP was required in 1999 but I may be wrong. My class in 1999 we had 20, and only 1...count em....ONE CHICK and she was a G-4 Capt flying Coporate the rest were Military Heavy Transport or Single seat fighter....all of us had more than 1500 hours. NO INTERNS IN MY CLASS.

XJT hired a fair share of low time inmature kids....so what is the point? Be careful where you throw stones in that glass house kid!

 

[sleeves]

If RJ pilots can bing over longevity (not seniority) and ML pilots are not harmed and it cost ML pilots nothing in negotiation capital... is this acceptable? If not....why?

The only way it will cost mainline pilots nothing is if Regional guys bargin for this themselves. We will be bringing up first year pay and giving insurance sooner in our next contract, something that will cost us at the table. I am in favor of that, but if you want more you will have to bargain for it yourself.

 

[Chairman]

The only way it will cost mainline pilots nothing is if Regional guys bargin for this themselves. We will be bringing up first year pay and giving insurance sooner in our next contract, something that will cost us at the table. I am in favor of that, but if you want more you will have to bargain for it yourself.

Yeah you will welcome to UAL benefits start in the first month. And they were paid for by the company!