UAL MEC tough stance on Scope---keep it up!

[doh]

General, you need to go back a couple of pages and see what Yogi is talking about. The issue being discussed is super seniority for pay purposes for displaced regional captains. Originally proposed by Rez, this would give, for example, an 18 year regional captain who gets hired at mainline 5th year pay. Yogi is responding to the impracticality of this.

 

[Hvy]

Yogi, you are having a hard time understanding Johnsonrod. UAL and CAL MECs have their companies in a corner right now. Big bonuses are at stake, for management and the people putting this merger together. They want it clean, and they are WALL ST. That means less negotiating, and more taking back. That is also called leverage. You need to look it up in negotiating books it seems. When one side has LEVERAGE, that side usually gets a lot more of what they want. The time is now.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Unfortunately, much of the "perceived" leverage came and went with the very speedy DOJ approval. Oct. 01 and it's a done deal. 3 months earlier than expected. ALPA got caught flat-footed AGAIN with that approval. Now, it all depends on whether or not management is satisfied with the synergies created by the merger without the pilots on board VS. the projected synergies with the pilots on board. We'll know more in a few days which way they are leaning.

But back to the earlier statement by "Rez," saying that "management would pay for 5th year rates for new hire RJ pilots." Are you brand new to this industry?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

General, you need to go back a couple of pages and see what Yogi is talking about. The issue being discussed is super seniority for pay purposes for displaced regional captains. Originally proposed by Rez, this would give, for example, an 18 year regional captain who gets hired at mainline 5th year pay. Yogi is responding to the impracticality of this.

Nope... I said nothing of seniority... rather longevity....

For purposes up bidding better equipment as FOs, schedules, QOL.. the mainline pilots are better off than the RJ pilot who comes over...

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Yogi, you are having a hard time understanding Johnsonrod. UAL and CAL MECs have their companies in a corner right now. Big bonuses are at stake, for management and the people putting this merger together. They want it clean, and they are WALL ST. That means less negotiating, and more taking back. That is also called leverage. You need to look it up in negotiating books it seems. When one side has LEVERAGE, that side usually gets a lot more of what they want. The time is now.


Bye Bye--General Lee

GL,

We may have leverage, but what I am saying is, mainline pilots are not going to spend one once of leverage (aka negotiating capital) to help regional pilots coming over to get 5th year pay. Please read the thread before you respond. Negotiating capital is leverage. Whomever has more negotiating capital has more leverage.

Yogi

 

[HHH]

Nope... I said nothing of seniority... rather longevity....

For purposes up bidding better equipment as FOs, schedules, QOL.. the mainline pilots are better off than the RJ pilot who comes over...

So you want legacy pilots to fight for higher pay and conditions for regional pilots that may get furloughed? NO.

Do you think legacy pilots have nothing else to worry about and can spend negotiating energy and capital on YOU?

If you or anyone else wants to work for a legacy, then apply, interview, and make the sacrifices that everyone else did. Quit playing the victim card and asking for a free ride. Get your logbook up to date, network, save your money, sell or pay off your BMW and be ready for when legacies begin to hire again.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So you want legacy pilots to fight for higher pay and conditions for regional pilots that may get furloughed? NO.

Incorrect.

Do you think legacy pilots have nothing else to worry about and can spend negotiating energy and capital on YOU?

Again incorrect, on a few levels...

If you or anyone else wants to work for a legacy, then apply, interview, and make the sacrifices that everyone else did. Quit playing the victim card and asking for a free ride. Get your logbook up to date, network, save your money, sell or pay off your BMW and be ready for when legacies begin to hire again.

It will be beneficial for all RJ pilots to do so... but if senior RJ pilots operate the brand till the bitter end and get furloughed due to no choice of their own, AND they apply and pass the interview on their own accord, they get a longevity.. not seniority credit....

This credit is the burden of the company, not taken from ML pilots negotiation capital....

Seems ALPA has some type of obligation to RJ pilots... after all they are ALPA pilots...

 

[sleeves]

10 years ago, mainline guys were greedy and traded short term gains in pay for scope. That was a terrible decision. Now regional pilots are the ones that are screaming, "Me,me,me" Eliminating the whipsaw was smart then and it is smart now. It is going to be costly though, I dought MGT. will want to higher anyone. @ 5 year pay.

 

[HHH]

Incorrect.

but if senior RJ pilots operate the brand till the bitter end and get furloughed due to no choice of their own, AND they apply and pass the interview on their own accord, they get a longevity.. not seniority credit....

This credit is the burden of the company, not taken from ML pilots negotiation capital....

Seems ALPA has some type of obligation to RJ pilots... after all they are ALPA pilots...

No choice of their own? What? I didn't know that people choose to get furloughed. I never gave up 70 seat scope nor did 4000 other CAL pilots. I knew the risks of working for a major included a possible furlough. Same with working for a regional, a flight school....even McDonald's. Again, that's life.

Why do you and other regional pilots deserve more than everyone that went ahead of you?

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

No choice of their own? What? I didn't know that people choose to get furloughed. I never gave up 70 seat scope nor did 4000 other CAL pilots. I knew the risks of working for a major included a possible furlough. Same with working for a regional, a flight school....even McDonald's. Again, that's life.

Why do you and other regional pilots deserve more than everyone that went ahead of you?

It is just so funny that he can't understand that mngmt won't just fork it over. So here is my idea. After the new UAL gets a contract, then let the regional management or regional ALPA ask for the longevity boost. Mainline ALPA shouldn't have to ask, because it is asking for a favor which will cost something in the near future. Let's see how far that get's them! If management says, "of course, no problem!", I will gladly agree to it too. Now why would management hire those entitled to a longevity boost, when they can hire military and non-ALPA regional pilots at first year pay? We all know the answer to that one!!!

Yogi

 

[General Lee]

GL,

We may have leverage, but what I am saying is, mainline pilots are not going to spend one once of leverage (aka negotiating capital) to help regional pilots coming over to get 5th year pay. Please read the thread before you respond. Negotiating capital is leverage. Whomever has more negotiating capital has more leverage.

Yogi

Got it. But, still use the leverage for whatever you do while you have it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Hvy]

Nope... I said nothing of seniority... rather longevity....

For purposes up bidding better equipment as FOs, schedules, QOL.. the mainline pilots are better off than the RJ pilot who comes over...

I said nothing about seniority either. If you think that management will dig into their pockets and pay you 5th year pay during your 1st year out of the goodness of your heart you are sorely mistaken. If you think that a pilot group will give up something in their contract so that a 1st year pilot can come onboard at 5th year pay you are sorely mistaken. So...don't hold your breath for 5th year pay during your 1st year when/if you are hired. It's NOT going to happen.

 

[mamba20]

you go to a new airline, you start at the bottom. unless your a strike breaker that is.

 

[42000]

From the uaua annual report,

"At December 31, 2009, the Company’s leased aircraft, scheduled future minimum lease payments under capital leases (substantially all of which are for aircraft) and operating leases having initial or remaining noncancelable lease terms of more than one year were as follows:

Operating Leases Mainline
Aircraft Regional Affiliates
Aircraft Non-aircraft ` Capital
Leases (b) Number of Leased Aircraft in Operating Fleet
United and UAL
113 252 — 116
"

the chart didn't make the transfer, but under Aircraft Regional Affiliates, the number of leases = 252.

 

[bluefin]

Incorrect.

Again incorrect, on a few levels...

It will be beneficial for all RJ pilots to do so... but if senior RJ pilots operate the brand till the bitter end and get furloughed due to no choice of their own, AND they apply and pass the interview on their own accord, they get a longevity.. not seniority credit....

This credit is the burden of the company, not taken from ML pilots negotiation capital....

Seems ALPA has some type of obligation to RJ pilots... after all they are ALPA pilots...[/QUOTE]

You gotta get off of that one. 1437 Still waiting for alpa's obligation to the furloughed mainline guys. The above quote is a perfect example of the "CONFLICT OF INTEREST" which lies in the union. How can alpa support both sides? there is no support now. When the time comes just get in line and interview like everyone else. Once again as I was told, "furlough builds character". As a double furloughee through no fault of my own, I knew the risk. Please answer the question.

 

[doh]

Got it. But, still use the leverage for whatever you do while you have it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Now that I agree with! :beer:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You gotta get off of that one. 1437 Still waiting for alpa's obligation to the furloughed mainline guys. The above quote is a perfect example of the "CONFLICT OF INTEREST" which lies in the union. How can alpa support both sides? there is no support now. When the time comes just get in line and interview like everyone else. Once again as I was told, "furlough builds character". As a double furloughee through no fault of my own, I knew the risk. Please answer the question.

I never stated that any RJ pilot would go ahead of the 1437. The RJ pilot must apply and interview.. most 15 year RJ pilots are so out of touch from the job market, havven't touched a log book in decades, got hired on when their regional was a mom and pop operation and their buddy Ricky Bobby got them the job....

How does this compare to the National Seniority List arguement? Pilots want credit for time served......

In addition, if senior RJ pilots want to try and game the system and wait for a pick slip to get their longevity credit they are losing seniority. Whereas if they updated thier log book, learned to interview, finish thier four year degree and apply now, they will have more seniority... then waiting for thier sandbox to crumble...

There is no seniority gain here... The longevity credit isn't a windfall like many seem to think it is.... consider it like a tax break or corporate subsidy....

 

[SuperFLUF]

That's going to be a tough sell to the 30-40% of us who have decided to make this a career and have good schedules....I'm willing to listen to your "offer", but getting stapled to the bottom of your list is a non starter....Not interested in commuting as a reserve FO.....

Feels good to be the big fish in the puddle?

 

[sleeves]

I never stated that any RJ pilot would go ahead of the 1437. The RJ pilot must apply and interview.. most 15 year RJ pilots are so out of touch from the job market, havven't touched a log book in decades, got hired on when their regional was a mom and pop operation and their buddy Ricky Bobby got them the job....

How does this compare to the National Seniority List arguement? Pilots want credit for time served......

In addition, if senior RJ pilots want to try and game the system and wait for a pick slip to get their longevity credit they are losing seniority. Whereas if they updated thier log book, learned to interview, finish thier four year degree and apply now, they will have more seniority... then waiting for thier sandbox to crumble...

There is no seniority gain here... The longevity credit isn't a windfall like many seem to think it is.... consider it like a tax break or corporate subsidy....

Rez, MGT. Are the people that are going to need to be convinced. To be honest, it is going to be very hard to get the flying back. Mainline pilots will sacrifice pay and work rules. We may need to strike. If you believe that I am going to give up pay and benefits so that a guy that does not want to make the sacrifices that I made have it easy I will not. If the regionals keep expanding this profession will never amount to jack. The whipsaw is destroying the regional industry. I am willing to sacrifice to get rid of the whipsaw, to make this profession better for everyone in the long term. Why should I be the only one though.

The bottom line is that as a Mainline pilot I will not approve a contract that relieves my CAL scope. That is what I am willing to do to get rid of MGT'S whipsaw. What are the regional pilots going to do to get rid of it? So far it sounds like nothing, the are just making demands.

 

[jonjuan]

Feels good to be the big fish in the puddle?

Meanwhile, the O2 levels in the puddle are quickly going bye bye.

 

[Jetjockey]

What Joe doesn't realize is that he doesn't have a seat at the table. It's up to the negotiating committee and the new UAL management. You're destiny is being controlled by other entities.