UAL MEC tough stance on Scope---keep it up!

[Scope out RJ's]

And this kind of bigotry is why ALPA will never be anything more than an abject failure.

I'd say based on the outcome of your girls club (rjdc) it is a complete success.
BTW Poindexter, how's the job search going?:laugh:

 

[Fly4hire]

UAL is conducting an employee education campaign heralding the benefits of outsource lift and labor. It's actually an entertaining piece - except the company appears serious about their assumptions.

Do you have an original copy of the letter in PDF or a link?

 

[bluefin]

Yes ALPA national needs to split in two, serious conflict of interest! You only hear the issues of outsourcing with international flying not domestic. I have never heard comrad pradik stand for mainline pilots who were losing their jobs to regionals. When ALPA picketed the air lingus deal, some of the pilots, colgan, mesa were picketing something that got them where they are now! talk about calling... you know how it goes. Now ALPA is kicking off a program with regionals on how to keep the flying there! you have got be sh!tting me! I guess as long as the flying goes to another union shop its ok. You only hear the voices of MEC's standing up for their pilots, that is not unity. ALPA being on both sides has created the division, not the pilots.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes ALPA national needs to split in two, serious conflict of interest! You only hear the issues of outsourcing with international flying not domestic. I have never heard comrad pradik stand for mainline pilots who were losing their jobs to regionals. When ALPA picketed the air lingus deal, some of the pilots, colgan, mesa were picketing something that got them where they are now! talk about calling... you know how it goes. Now ALPA is kicking off a program with regionals on how to keep the flying there! you have got be sh!tting me! I guess as long as the flying goes to another union shop its ok. You only hear the voices of MEC's standing up for their pilots, that is not unity. ALPA being on both sides has created the division, not the pilots.

Not really... this is like having a ball club split into two separate teams.. offensive and defensive... each one wanting to claim victory....

or Dem or GOP....

It is much easier to work together as one team...

The key to any successful relationship is communication... cut the communication lines and the effectiveness suffers....

 

[bluefin]

Not really... this is like having a ball club split into two separate teams.. offensive and defensive... each one wanting to claim victory....

or Dem or GOP....

It is much easier to work together as one team...

The key to any successful relationship is communication... cut the communication lines and the effectiveness suffers....

There hasn't been open communication, when is the last time ALPA stood up to the domestic outsourcing?(maybe midwest, but it went to the teamsters) they can't because it is going to the same union or another union(teamsters)(skywest minus asa doesn't count) they would then be seen as anti-union. Both want to claim victory, it can't happen in the same house! one will win, one will lose and right now its the mainline on the losing side.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There hasn't been open communication, when is the last time ALPA stood up to the domestic outsourcing?(maybe midwest, but it went to the teamsters) they can't because it is going to the same union or another union(teamsters)(skywest minus asa doesn't count) they would then be seen as anti-union. Both want to claim victory, it can't happen in the same house! one will win, one will lose and right now its the mainline on the losing side.

What you say about comm might or might not be true...

How is the regionals going to form their own union going to help? Details please...

 

[CFIT]

How is the regionals going to form their own union going to help? Details please...

By removing the conflict of interest.

ALPO's true intrest is the legacies.

 

[contrail67]

That's going to be a tough sell to the 30-40% of us who have decided to make this a career and have good schedules....I'm willing to listen to your "offer", but getting stapled to the bottom of your list is a non starter....Not interested in commuting as a reserve FO.....

The 30-40% that choose to make a regional a career are the ones that either can't make it to a major because of something on their record, they are too old, or they never filled out the application....

United passengers deserve United Pilots....period.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

By removing the conflict of interest.

ALPO's true intrest is the legacies.

Actually, children reject conflict.. they want what they want because they want it.. Mature adults know how to use conflict to reach a better understanding.... and find solutions...

There is a standing question on how to remove this conflict of interest that you think is determental. You have yet to answer. It is easy to post on moniker message boards... it is another to put ideas to action..

So, who removes this conflict? Know of anyone?

New union? What is the dues rate? Organizational structure? Can you do more than just post one liners on a message board?

Fact is, if mainline is able to get scope back and the regionals start losing jobs I think ALPA regional pilots should have a stake in the new world order.... In fact I suggested 3:1 ratio of seniority to longevity... If a regional lifer has 15 years then he gets no seniority but 5 years of longevity. Should make the economic pain minimal... he will have to deal with the ego blow of being an FO all over again....

ALPA regional pilots would get preferential interviews...

Not sure about the OO pilots.... who does ALPA talk with to discuss the terms of coming over to mainline with longevity? Is the sen:long ratio good enough? Well, is it?


Should OO pilots get preferential interviews? If so... why?

 

[flyguppy]

This is easily the dumbest thing I've seen posted here in some time. Unity through division? Success through segregation? Good luck with that. If we are ever going to rebuild this profession, we need to stick together, not break everybody apart. It is possible for FFD pilots and mainline pilots to work together, but you need to check your ego at the door, and people like Joey need to check their inferiority complexes at the door.

Can you explain one thing to me?

When one of Prater's recent talking points was "Regional Airline job security for pilots", how is that not a conflict of interest in representing the mainline pilot?

Being as many mainline pilots feel they have LOST too many jobs to the regionals.......

Seems like a MAJOR conflict of interest to me.

 

[dicko]

uke:

This is easily the dumbest thing I've seen posted here in some time. Unity through division? Success through segregation? Good luck with that. If we are ever going to rebuild this profession, we need to stick together, not break everybody apart. It is possible for FFD pilots and mainline pilots to work together, but you need to check your ego at the door, and people like Joey need to check their inferiority complexes at the door.

Ladies and Gentleman,

I would like to introduce you to the guy who was instrumental in bringing out sourced 86 seat RJ's to AirTran.

 

[Hvy]

Go for it...but don't ask me for support....

I've made a good living out of flying the big boys were too good to fly...Expect a fight, not support, to try and take it back....

There's not a thing that you can do about it. They are not your routes. They are United routes. You fly them because United has hired your company. Not because you "own" anything. As such, you will have NO say about it. NONE. When the contract with your company is over the routes can and WILL be taken away and flown by United pilots. Your flying will dwindle. Good luck to you.

 

[Hvy]

I wish the Delta pilots pushing to pull from ALPA luck. Some of the comments here from out "carreer" regional pilots clearly show why we should not be in the same union paying dues to support their "carreer." I hope UAL is right behind them to dump ALPA.

I agree 100%. Outside of the realm of safety, anything that is good for an RJ outfit is bad for the Majors.

 

[AWACoff]

Fact is, if mainline is able to get scope back and the regionals start losing jobs I think ALPA regional pilots should have a stake in the new world order.... In fact I suggested 3:1 ratio of seniority to longevity... If a regional lifer has 15 years then he gets no seniority but 5 years of longevity. Should make the economic pain minimal... he will have to deal with the ego blow of being an FO all over again....




?

I'd like to suggest that you stop proposing free handouts for regional pilots. I suggest that if you don't want to end up in the unemployment line, apply/interview/get hired at a major just like the rest of us. I suggest you take the extreme paycut that we all took when we left the regionals/military/etc. instead of hoping for "ratios". Fact is, when the majors get scope back and the regionals start losing jobs, there will be MORE jobs at mainline for those regional pilots.

 

[eaglesview]

I'd like to suggest that you stop proposing free handouts for regional pilots. I suggest that if you don't want to end up in the unemployment line, apply/interview/get hired at a major just like the rest of us. I suggest you take the extreme paycut that we all took when we left the regionals/military/etc. instead of hoping for "ratios". Fact is, when the majors get scope back and the regionals start losing jobs, there will be MORE jobs at mainline for those regional pilots.

THank toy for that breath of common sense.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'd like to suggest that you stop proposing free handouts for regional pilots. I suggest that if you don't want to end up in the unemployment line, apply/interview/get hired at a major just like the rest of us. I suggest you take the extreme paycut that we all took when we left the regionals/military/etc. instead of hoping for "ratios". Fact is, when the majors get scope back and the regionals start losing jobs, there will be MORE jobs at mainline for those regional pilots.

Tough sell....

So if a guy that loses a job because ML takes scope back, he should just be left out to dry? Recall ML pilots gave up the flying for regional pilots to fly. Most regional pilots want to be mainline pilots but are forced to pay their dues at the express carriers....

Not sure why a longevity ratio hurts you... or is it just pride that a regional pilot gets a preferential interview, maybe he passes the interview, maybe he doesn't.. if he does, he gets a new hire seniority number. He'll never be senior to any pilot currently on the ML sen list...

What do you care what the company pays him? Besides, he has flown the paint around for 15 years.....

So how are you harmed?

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Tough sell....

So if a guy that loses a job because ML takes scope back, he should just be left out to dry? Recall ML pilots gave up the flying for regional pilots to fly. Most regional pilots want to be mainline pilots but are forced to pay their dues at the express carriers....

Not sure why a longevity ratio hurts you... or is it just pride that a regional pilot gets a preferential interview, maybe he passes the interview, maybe he doesn't.. if he does, he gets a new hire seniority number. He'll never be senior to any pilot currently on the ML sen list...

What do you care what the company pays him? Besides, he has flown the paint around for 15 years.....

So how are you harmed?

WADR, how do you then deal with the military guys. They are leaving a higher paying commander position to come to mainline and take a huge paycut. They have been flying OUR COLORS for years, and risking lives for every American???

Yogi

 

[Hvy]

Tough sell....

So if a guy that loses a job because ML takes scope back, he should just be left out to dry? Recall ML pilots gave up the flying for regional pilots to fly. Most regional pilots want to be mainline pilots but are forced to pay their dues at the express carriers....

What about the Mainline guys that lost their jobs because of the outsourcing? Perhaps the RJ guys should supplement the furloughed pilots incomes?

Not sure why a longevity ratio hurts you... or is it just pride that a regional pilot gets a preferential interview, maybe he passes the interview, maybe he doesn't.. if he does, he gets a new hire seniority number. He'll never be senior to any pilot currently on the ML sen list...

You seem to lack understanding on how contract negotiations work. If we were to do something like you propose it would not be free.

What do you care what the company pays him? Besides, he has flown the paint around for 15 years.....

See above

So how are you harmed?

They are NOT employees at United Airlines. They are a wholly owned subsidiary. Maybe we should set them up with a car & condo at the domicile of their choice. I can see that the entitlement generation has arrived in the airline industry.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So if a guy that loses a job because ML takes scope back, he should just be left out to dry? Recall ML pilots gave up the flying for regional pilots to fly. Most regional pilots want to be mainline pilots but are forced to pay their dues at the express carriers....

What about the Mainline guys that lost their jobs because of the outsourcing? Perhaps the RJ guys should supplement the furloughed pilots incomes?

Recall, the ML guys agreed to give up scope for other protections. A choice. In fact, the UAL guys in the glorious C2000, gave up scope for mouth watering pay rates. Most agree that was a mistake...

As I stated above.. Regional pilots have no choice.. they have to take the RJ route to be qualified to apply to ML..... as did most ML pilots since the late 80s.

Not sure why a longevity ratio hurts you... or is it just pride that a regional pilot gets a preferential interview, maybe he passes the interview, maybe he doesn't.. if he does, he gets a new hire seniority number. He'll never be senior to any pilot currently on the ML sen list...

You seem to lack understanding on how contract negotiations work. If we were to do something like you propose it would not be free.

It depends on who is paying for it..... I propose it is in the companies best interest to pay for it... We are already learning the lesson of ML outsourcing as country...

What do you care what the company pays him? Besides, he has flown the paint around for 15 years.....

See above

So how are you harmed?


They are NOT employees at United Airlines. They are a wholly owned subsidiary. Maybe we should set them up with a car & condo at the domicile of their choice. I can see that the entitlement generation has arrived in the airline industry.

They may not be UAL employees but they are ALPA members. That is a good enough reason to provide pay protections so these regional pilots who will be kicked out on to the street can continue to feed and house their families...

Also, the longevity ratio scheme should start with the junior regional pilots first..., because s/he won't have much of a ratio. Less than 5 years at a regional has no longevity ratio value. (all this is just an idea...) Only when a regional pilot gets his pink slip does the ratio become valid. If a 15 year regional captain wants to quit and interview like everyone else then he gets no longevity credit. This is to give the junior regional pilots a chance to get some seniority over the senior regional pilots when they come over to ML... if they can pass the interview...


It is disappointing that you did not answer the question..... How are you or a ML pilot harmed when ML seniorty is protected?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

WADR, how do you then deal with the military guys. They are leaving a higher paying commander position to come to mainline and take a huge paycut. They have been flying OUR COLORS for years, and risking lives for every American???

Yogi

Not sure how that correlates?

How does choosing to leave the DoD equate to a regional pilot being forced out of a job because of scope reversal?

Recall the regional pilots are ALPA members as are the ML pilots....

I would expect that if a ML pilot group took back their scope, which they should, but it caused the unemployment of many fellow ALPA members that some method of protection could be put in place.

The longevity ratio protects the seniority of current ML pilots while acknowledging a regional pilots service to the brand.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Not sure how that correlates?

How does choosing to leave the DoD equate to a regional pilot being forced out of a job because of scope reversal?

Recall the regional pilots are ALPA members as are the ML pilots....

I would expect that if a ML pilot group took back their scope, which they should, but it caused the unemployment of many fellow ALPA members that some method of protection could be put in place.

The longevity ratio protects the seniority of current ML pilots while acknowledging a regional pilots service to the brand.

So when scope was loosened and plenty of mainline pilots were furloughed, did the regional open their doors and allow them to take their jobs at higher seniority or payrates??? The answer is NO, there was a lot of opposition. The few were not paid more than their hiring position payrate, some UAL were supplemented by their union, not the regional. The few at USAir were given Captain slots and stayed the most junior CA's as FO's leapfrogged them for years, until their seniority could hold higher seniority. The rest were flowthrough agreements, which was whole different animal. By doing what you are suggesting, we are blocking Military folks from jobs, and we are slapping the face of those that left regionals and took the paycut. We need to play fair!!!

Yogi

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So when scope was loosened

at the choice of the ML pilots..

and plenty of mainline pilots were furloughed,

Due to ML pilots voting to relax scope...

did the regional open their doors and allow them to take their jobs at higher seniority or payrates???

Again... the regional pilots took regional jobs because that was the only way to gain Part 121 PIC time to even qualify for to apply to the majors...

Now, if ML pilots get scope back, the regional pilots are out of a job.. which is fine.... However, many regional pilots who wanted to fly for ML never applied because they could not/would not make the pay cut to first year pay at ML... That was their choice to stay employed at the express carriers

However, now, if this scope reversal actually happens the regional pilots will have no choice.. they will simply be out of a job...

The issue is here is the unintended consequence of forcing a pilot out of a job.

The answer is NO, there was a lot of opposition. The few were not paid more than their hiring position payrate, some UAL were supplemented by their union, not the regional.

And this is the union, ALPA, protecting its members...

The few at USAir were given Captain slots and stayed the most junior CA's as FO's leapfrogged them for years, until their seniority could hold higher seniority. The rest were flowthrough agreements, which was whole different animal. By doing what you are suggesting, we are blocking Military folks from jobs, and we are slapping the face of those that left regionals and took the paycut. We need to play fair!!!

Yogi

The MIL guys are free to apply to mainline like they always have.... The MIL guys never have nor expected longevity credit pay at a commercial corporation for DoD service... Is there another example of this in union labor? In addition, the MIL guys have their pension or Guard/Reserve...

You seem miffed because I am suggesting that the senior regional pilots get a bridge so they don't have to go from 80K to 30K because they were forced out of a job and onto the street....

Where or how are you harmed? How is a MIL guy harmed here?

 

[Hvy]

You must be new to the airline industry if you don't understand that a company just doesn't give 5 year or 10 year pay to a new hire. Everything on a contract is negotiated. We would have to give something up to give you your longevity pay. That is, of course, assuming that you even get called in for an interview or get offered a job. I have a suggestion for you...during the interview process why don't you express your thoughts to the interviewing Captain. Then let me know how that works out

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You must be new to the airline industry if you don't understand that a company just doesn't give 5 year or 10 year pay to a new hire.

You haven't been debating well... in fact you've got debate creep..... your arguement keeps changing as we progress...

Everything on a contract is negotiated.

That is correct.... Some ALPA carriers have preferred interviews for furloughed ALPA pilots.... why would the company do that?

We would have to give something up to give you your longevity pay.

Or perhaps what is the company gaining? Experienced ALPA pilots who know how to fly the brand but more importanly the NAS in Part 121 operations...

Experienced pilots are going to be rare in the next five years... but many regional pilots will not continue if they must go from 80-100K to 30K. This experience is in the best interest of the USA... I think the govt will help convince companies... if it is a labor friendly govt..

That is, of course, assuming that you even get called in for an interview or get offered a job. I have a suggestion for you...during the interview process why don't you express your thoughts to the interviewing Captain. Then let me know how that works out

That won't matter... Airlines will be needing pilots.... why not hire experienced pilots who were forced out of a job on to the street because of union scope....

Look at it from the ALPA regional pilots view... they took regional jobs to be able to be qualed for major airlines. Now their jobs might be gone... they have done nothing sinister or devious... or intentional like vote scope away... they are highly qualified and the majors will need pilots....

Finally, you haven't stated how you'd be harmed... it seems you are against this for personal reasons....

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

at the choice of the ML pilots..


Due to ML pilots voting to relax scope...


Again... the regional pilots took regional jobs because that was the only way to gain Part 121 PIC time to even qualify for to apply to the majors...

Now, if ML pilots get scope back, the regional pilots are out of a job.. which is fine.... However, many regional pilots who wanted to fly for ML never applied because they could not/would not make the pay cut to first year pay at ML... That was their choice to stay employed at the express carriers

However, now, if this scope reversal actually happens the regional pilots will have no choice.. they will simply be out of a job...

The issue is here is the unintended consequence of forcing a pilot out of a job.


And this is the union, ALPA, protecting its members...

The MIL guys are free to apply to mainline like they always have.... The MIL guys never have nor expected longevity credit pay at a commercial corporation for DoD service... Is there another example of this in union labor? In addition, the MIL guys have their pension or Guard/Reserve...

You seem miffed because I am suggesting that the senior regional pilots get a bridge so they don't have to go from 80K to 30K because they were forced out of a job and onto the street....

Where or how are you harmed? How is a MIL guy harmed here?

Thousands have made the jump and took the paycut. Many were even furloughed. That is the risk. So let me get this straight, you want to increase pay and mitigate risk? At the expense of whom? Management will surely take that out of mainline pilots' pockets. So who do you expect to pay for your proposal? Where will the concessions come from? Why don't you ask all of the junior regional FO's who will benefit by their newly found upgrade. The idea is just ridiculous...

Yogi

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Finally, you haven't stated how you'd be harmed... it seems you are against this for personal reasons....

If you can honestly tell me where the money will come from to support this proposal, I will gladly tell my reasons...I assure you they won't be personal...

Yogi

 

[AWACoff]

So how are you harmed?

I tell you what, Rez. How about if I get furloughed (ie. lose my job), your company has to pay me a rate higher than you are currently making. It's only fair since my hourly rate is far higher than yours. It shouldn't matter that you've been at your regional for umpteen years. All that matters is that my current pay should have value at your regional.

In your example of a 15 year RJ getting ratio'd at year 5 pay, you find it eminently fair that a pilot who never took a chance on his career should be rewarded with an enhanced pay scale. Potentially there are pilots who left that exact same carrier 4 years prior that would then be making less than some RJ captain who stayed at his relatively high pay scale and never took a chance or the initial pay cut. You find that fair, right?

You are asking to come to my carrier at a higher rate than I am currently on right now. But if I were to get furloughed, I doubt you would find it fair for me to be hired as a new hire at your company with a payscale higher than yours. Your idea of what is "fair" is well off of center of the Bell curve. I just hope that you are trying to stir the pot and don't truly believe the drivel you are typing.

 

[dingo222]

In your example of a 15 year RJ getting ratio'd at year 5 pay, you find it eminently fair that a pilot who never took a chance on his career should be rewarded with an enhanced pay scale.

Most of us were never given the opportunity to take that "chance" because you management farmed out all of the flying and hasn't hired in years.

 

[doh]

I can see the preferential interview as they are ALPA members. But they would have to start at the bottom of the pay scale. That would have happened if they had applied in the normal course of events. The harm here is indirect, but nonetheless exists as negotiating capital would have to be spent on this issue versus spending it on pilots currently on the list. In any case, the most important task is getting the flying back where it belongs! There will certainly be some short term pain, but the long term outlook for the profession will be exponential! Take it back!

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

This conversation amuses me quite a bit. There is all this talk of ALPA pilots losing their jobs if CAL scope is maintained in the JCBA. What ALPA pilots?

Skywest: non union
ChaBrickury: Teamsters
Go-Jet: Alter-ego scum (Teamsters)
TSA, XJT: 50 seaters, unaffected by scope tightening
Mesa: Not sure if they fly 70s under the UAL banner, but if so I think they'd be the only ALPA regional to have flying returned to mainline.

Did I miss anyone?

As for the first year pay, remember that the industry standard (DAL, SWA, FDX, JBLU) is now around $50K a year and that will be implemented well before any scope tightening. Heck, we were already offered that in that DAL plus $1 joke from this spring. So sorry Rez, at least at this company, $30K probie pay (actually more like $27K) will be a thing of the past. After our combined almost 1600 furloughs are recalled, the days of newhire poverty at mainline should be long gone!