Two Pilot Marriages

[Rez O. Lewshun]

LOL! No doubt! Hey, Fly, maybe we should start a movement saying that we think all men should stay at home, cook, clean and tend to the children. I mean, some men like to tell us what they think we should do.....maybe we should start demanding what they do. He he

I think the feminist movement has already taken care of that. By default, with more women working either the extra income has to be spent on maid service or men have to pick up the slack. Less free time, unless the chicks are making enough bank to cover for services to make up for lost time. Grass cutting, oil changes, house cleaning, food preperation, daycare, etc...

 

[capt. megadeth]

Rez,
In high school I had a friend whose mom stayed at home. My mom was working all the time. The last time we talked we had a conversation that involved drugs. My friend told me she wanted to shoot up heroin. I asked her what she would do if I gave her an ultimatum......our friendship or trying shooting up heroin. She said goodbye. My point is is that just because you have a parent at home does not mean you will turn out as well as a child with working parents. I do agree with some of your thinking, however there is more to life than just kids. Just because you have kids does not mean you cannot have a career too. As a matter of fact, the main reason I don't have kids yet is because I take the responsibility very seriously and I want to make sure that when we do have kids, we are around alot. By that, I mean, I realize that when I am not flying, ALL of my free time will be devoted to my kids. You can have both and there are couples that do it and their kids are fine.

 

[FlyUnited]

Absolutely Mega.

Rez, unless you can prove that all stay home Moms are better than working Moms, you can't win this argument. Without bragging, you'd be hard pressed to get kids to top what mine have accomplished. Two valedictorians, two nationally ranked swimmers, two polite, kind, intelligent young men, two working parents. I'm sorry if that equals failure to you but it doesn't to us.

 

[rdy4to]

I think the feminist movement has already taken care of that. By default, with more women working either the extra income has to be spent on maid service or men have to pick up the slack. Less free time, unless the chicks are making enough bank to cover for services to make up for lost time. Grass cutting, oil changes, house cleaning, food preperation, daycare, etc...

Rez,
I'm only replying to you because you said "please reply" and I am considerate that way.

Most of your counter points to my post weren't really counter points and fairly weak at that. You made many emotional, sarcastic, disparaging statements which you need to stop. I have made so such comments to you. Respect that.

First of all, you need to look up the meaning of altruistic. It has nothing to do with "self-reliant kids who need building up." You missed my whole point.

Second, the comment about "mental health expert" was childish and again you missed my point. I flew organ procurement for a year. Many, many people have accidents and many do not die. It's a medical fact. That was my point regarding your family without you. Nothing to do with mental health.

If you want to debate then do a better job. You are entitled to your opinions, but everytime you sweep another person's opinion away with blanket statements such as "This is justification." and "stay on target" and other such remarks, you lose the respect of the other person you are debating with and the debate deteriorates.

Regarding your challenge about hearing someone say "I wish I'd spent more time at work and less with my kids." Well, I've never heard anyone say the opposite either. What that does prove?

So here are my very serious questions to you. You say that kids want to spend as much time as possible with both parents. How much time are you spending with yours as a family? I am curious what you think is enough time since you do fly for a living and I figure with the aircraft listed you definitely do overnights. I am also very curious why you continue to fly rather than work a 8-5 job where you would be home every night. This is not a challenge or a goad. I am serious and interested in your answers.

On a slightly non-serious note, regarding your quote above...Who needs a husband when you can have a wife like the one you're describing. Not only does your definition of a wife include a women who bears and raises your children, goes to college while the kids are in school, but she is also the maid, lawn mower, oil changer, chef, and I suppose, since many of your comments are fairly sexist, she's gotta keep in good shape too. You're one lucky man to have found such a great woman. Kudos to you. Let me know if there are any more around.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,
In high school I had a friend whose mom stayed at home. My mom was working all the time. The last time we talked we had a conversation that involved drugs. My friend told me she wanted to shoot up heroin. I asked her what she would do if I gave her an ultimatum......our friendship or trying shooting up heroin. She said goodbye.

Not sure why you guys don't want to stay on discussion. The arguement isn't "Two pilot marriages with good kids is better than a stay at home spouse who shoots up drugs"

The discussion is two pilot spouses who have kids and if the kids deserve to have a spouse around or does each spouse "deserve" to have thier passion or work life or second income or identity recognition or etc...

My point is is that just because you have a parent at home does not mean you will turn out as well as a child with working parents. I do agree with some of your thinking, however there is more to life than just kids. Just because you have kids does not mean you cannot have a career too.

This is the fundamental disagreement. Sorry, when you decide to have kids one spouse (man or woman) needs to be at home with them. This includes the teen years, when parents think thier teenagers are becomming more independent. Sure teens can cook thier own meals but they still need unconditional love and guidance (even though they say they don't).

Having children is a serious commitment. More than anything else in the world. For some reason our social programming has devalued child rasing. Sure it sounds better when people ask.. What do you do? Responding with "I am an Air Line Pilot" sounds better and cooler than "I am a stay at home parent". We don't even have a good description for it...

As a matter of fact, the main reason I don't have kids yet is because I take the responsibility very seriously and I want to make sure that when we do have kids, we are around alot. By that, I mean, I realize that when I am not flying, ALL of my free time will be devoted to my kids. You can have both and there are couples that do it and their kids are fine.

I'm sure the kids are fine.. my point is did they get everything that they could have and and what cost. What is the trade off and is it worth it?

Not sure why one would want to have kids then have both spouses hit the road? Why have kids then?

Children including teens need unconditional love. When two pilots have kids you are simply telling them that something is more important then them. Now..what is it that is more important?

I have yet to hear someone say, 'I wish I flew more trip and spent less time with the kids'. Once the age or time frame is gone, you can't get it back. Age 1-18 only happens once.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,
I'm only replying to you because you said "please reply" and I am considerate that way.

Most of your counter points to my post weren't really counter points and fairly weak at that. You made many emotional, sarcastic, disparaging statements which you need to stop. I have made so such comments to you. Respect that.

First of all, you need to look up the meaning of altruistic. It has nothing to do with "self-reliant kids who need building up." You missed my whole point.

Second, the comment about "mental health expert" was childish and again you missed my point. I flew organ procurement for a year. Many, many people have accidents and many do not die. It's a medical fact. That was my point regarding your family without you. Nothing to do with mental health.

If you want to debate then do a better job. You are entitled to your opinions, but everytime you sweep another person's opinion away with blanket statements such as "This is justification." and "stay on target" and other such remarks, you lose the respect of the other person you are debating with and the debate deteriorates.

Regarding your challenge about hearing someone say "I wish I'd spent more time at work and less with my kids." Well, I've never heard anyone say the opposite either. What that does prove?

So here are my very serious questions to you. You say that kids want to spend as much time as possible with both parents. How much time are you spending with yours as a family? I am curious what you think is enough time since you do fly for a living and I figure with the aircraft listed you definitely do overnights. I am also very curious why you continue to fly rather than work a 8-5 job where you would be home every night. This is not a challenge or a goad. I am serious and interested in your answers.

On a slightly non-serious note, regarding your quote above...Who needs a husband when you can have a wife like the one you're describing. Not only does your definition of a wife include a women who bears and raises your children, goes to college while the kids are in school, but she is also the maid, lawn mower, oil changer, chef, and I suppose, since many of your comments are fairly sexist, she's gotta keep in good shape too. You're one lucky man to have found such a great woman. Kudos to you. Let me know if there are any more around.

I'll re-read my posts and consider your critique... I did repsond in haste so you might have a point...

As many pilots in the airlines, my family and I have had career setbacks. A couple of displacements, conecssionary TA's, furloughes, starting over a first year pay a few times...

I am glad my wife is home with the kids. My income pays the house note, food and clothing. My time at home is dedicated to family, kids and "keeping house".

Since I advocate a spouse remain at home (man or woman) I come across as a patriarch or chauvenist (sp). Oh well. Not sure how macho king I am at the house with a vacuum cleaner and toilet brush in hand with meals cooked.. (not at the same time! I do know the difference between a toilet and BBQ grill brush).


Not sure if it would be benifical to my family to re-educate (cost and time) and re-career to a 9-5 job. But not sure that is the issue, because one spouse is at home with the kids.

I guess the question is what is most important asset is ones life? Once you get pass the portfolio, careers, cars, the house, the jewelry, social status, etc it comes down to family. Kids and spouse. But yet we seem to spend most of our time going after the former....

 

[i-no longer]

Rez, you love this stuff don't you? With more than 1800 posts you are having fun. I have to agree with rdy4to when he said in an earlier post that you are idealistic. You assume perfect world, perfect people which capt mega showed it just isn't so. The same goes with satpak's comment of "if mom stays at home..kids benefit..period end of story". Sadly, there are people who have kids and shouldn't so to make such sweeping statements just doesn't work. But that's for a whole other thread to cure the worlds ills.

You said, "In fact kids believe that whatever is the staus quo in the house is real and normal." Exactly!!! Even with flying parents!

"Kids love it best when both parents are together... when the whole family is together.. Why deny that? Especially for a passion (want)?" I think Lifeguard mentioned, that now neither parent should work? Why are you flying, why not a 9-5 so you can be home every night. If you don't have the training for a good paying job (computers for example) go back to college...... (I'm not meaning that harshly, just as a statement)

Which leads me to your comments about women needing to marry in their 20's, raising kids then going to college or in your opinion, going to college, raising kids then starting their career. There can be problems encountered no matter what the women do. If she waits to go to college, what happens if she divorces (and especially if he disappears). Now she is dependent upon minimum wage jobs to support her family, working 2 or more jobs. Or with your other suggestion of starting her career after the kids are gone, do you know just how hard it is to get a job after being out of the industry/school for a long period of time? I've only been out for 14 months, 3 months due to high risk pregnancy, 3 months FMLA and 8 months because the airline shut down. Even with plenty of experience, including PIC, I couldn't even get in with the regionals due to lack of recency of experience! Imagine a woman saying "I haven't been in the job field for 16 years as I've been raising my kids". That's hard to overcome in aviation and in the corporate world. Being a stay-at-home is hands down one of the most difficult jobs out there and it simply is not regarded as such! So, again, she's back to minimum paying jobs, now while the money is really needed as her kids are entering college.

Bottom line is, there is no one answer, it just can't be said that one way to do something is the only/best way. There are too many variables, too many factors that have to be taken into account on individual cases. I still standby my original statement to Way2 that having 2 pilots marry and having children can not only work, but work really well!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

rdy4to[/B]] Also, if this is your case and your wife is still trying to get her education, I hope nothing ever happens to you that causes permanent mental disablity because your wife and kids are going to be in a world of hurt. It'd be better if you don't survive the accident and they get the life insurance. Remeber we don't live in an ideal world where everything goes according to plan. I've seen my parents trying to find employment without a college education and that was back then. In this market....

Actually this did happen in my life. One of my parents was killed when I was a teen. I wish it never happend cause I lost alot and will never get it back... It was never my parent's intention to pass away (No Flyunited- my parent didn't OD on crack) but the absence is still felt today. Not sure why a parent would intentionally be away when they don't have to....

rdy4to[/B]]
Regarding your challenge about hearing someone say "I wish I'd spent more time at work and less with my kids." Well, I've never heard anyone say the opposite either. What that does prove?

What do you think a two pilot marriage spouse would say to this on his/her death bed? "I am glad I got 2000K more flight hours instead of spending time with the kids?" or "I'm glad I got displaced into another jet and had to go to training and missed a cross country road trip with the family?"

 

[FlyUnited]

OK, I'll say it, "I wish I flew more trips and spent less time with the kids.....especially after this weekend. Wow, thanks, I feel much better now."

Now please tell us, Mr Iknoweverything, how old is your oldest? 2? I thought I knew everything about kids back then too. hahaha Don't forget, God has a sense of humor.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, you love this stuff don't you? With more than 1800 posts you are having fun. I have to agree with rdy4to when he said in an earlier post that you are idealistic. You assume perfect world, perfect people which capt mega showed it just isn't so. The same goes with satpak's comment of "if mom stays at home..kids benefit..period end of story". Sadly, there are people who have kids and shouldn't so to make such sweeping statements just doesn't work. But that's for a whole other thread to cure the worlds ills.

Well I do have some time right now. Not really concered about the flying/union posts so much as I am the socio-politcal family discussion. By engaging in it, I am being influenced by both sides of the discussion.

I don't think I am being idealistic rather simplisitc. In fact I think a two pilot marriage with kids is rather idealistic. Why do some think they can have it all? What is the limit? When is it enough?

All I am am advocating is one parent (mom or dad) stay at home with the kids. Shocking, I know, in our current culture... How dare I put kids before discretionary or second income, status jobs, and cultural identity.

You said, "In fact kids believe that whatever is the staus quo in the house is real and normal." Exactly!!! Even with flying parents!

Parents behavior takes precedence over law, religion, ethics. What parents do is right or wrong in the eyes of kids. It is not black and white but basically true. If kids see that marriage and family life is one parent always leaving and limited time when the entire family is together, then they will think that is normal. And they should because it is....

"Kids love it best when both parents are together... when the whole family is together.. Why deny that? Especially for a passion (want)?" I think Lifeguard mentioned, that now neither parent should work? Why are you flying, why not a 9-5 so you can be home every night. If you don't have the training for a good paying job (computers for example) go back to college...... (I'm not meaning that harshly, just as a statement)

The discussion is two pilot marriages with kids. Not no income with both parents at home.

Which leads me to your comments about women needing to marry in their 20's, raising kids then going to college or in your opinion, going to college, raising kids then starting their career. There can be problems encountered no matter what the women do.

All I am saying is women have been feed this line that they can have it all. Career, marriage, kids.... Many families are realizing it is just too difficult and for what? What are they gaining?

If she waits to go to college, what happens if she divorces (and especially if he disappears). Now she is dependent upon minimum wage jobs to support her family, working 2 or more jobs.

Divorce? I'd think a college educated woman would have the decision making skills to marry a lifetime partner. Another aspect of current culture: divorce. It is way too easy today. Especially with kids, parents just opt out. And now that woman are working, it is easier to divorce cause they can get a job. "I'll just take the kids and get a job" she says! What about commitment? Sure life is tough, but we divorce too easy and kids pay the price. This is all part of the me-ism and materialism.

Or with your other suggestion of starting her career after the kids are gone, do you know just how hard it is to get a job after being out of the industry/school for a long period of time? I've only been out for 14 months, 3 months due to high risk pregnancy, 3 months FMLA and 8 months because the airline shut down. Even with plenty of experience, including PIC, I couldn't even get in with the regionals due to lack of recency of experience! Imagine a woman saying "I haven't been in the job field for 16 years as I've been raising my kids". That's hard to overcome in aviation and in the corporate world. Being a stay-at-home is hands down one of the most difficult jobs out there and it simply is not regarded as such! So, again, she's back to minimum paying jobs, now while the money is really needed as her kids are entering college.

My airline will hire you in an instant. Want to work for $20-ish an hour? How about a parent simply make a choice between kids and career? Why do both parents have to work? Money? Status? Self Worth? Identity?

But I disagree, if a parent wants to work after the kids have moved out, I am sure there are jobs. It might not be a great job flying a jet.. are you suggesting there is an entitlement?

Bottom line is, there is no one answer, it just can't be said that one way to do something is the only/best way. There are too many variables, too many factors that have to be taken into account on individual cases. I still standby my original statement to Way2 that having 2 pilots marry and having children can not only work, but work really well!

FlyUnited has kids that can swim faster than me and are smarter than me. Can't argue with that.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

OK, I'll say it, "I wish I flew more trips and spent less time with the kids.....especially after this weekend. Wow, thanks, I feel much better now."

.

Since it is all about you, I'm sure you do feel better....Now say it to your kids....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Divorce? I'd think a college educated woman would have the decision making skills to marry a lifetime partner. Another aspect of current culture: divorce. It is way too easy today. Especially with kids, parents just opt out. And now that woman are working, it is easier to divorce cause they can get a job. "I'll just take the kids and get a job" she says! What about commitment? Sure life is tough, but we divorce too easy and kids pay the price. This is all part of the me-ism and materialism.

Clarification: I am not saying it is all women. It takes two to divorce and men share all the blame....

 

[capt. megadeth]

This is the fundamental disagreement. Sorry, when you decide to have kids one spouse (man or woman) needs to be at home with them. This includes the teen years, when parents think thier teenagers are becomming more independent. Sure teens can cook thier own meals but they still need unconditional love and guidance (even though they say they don't).

Having children is a serious commitment. More than anything else in the world. For some reason our social programming has devalued child rasing. Sure it sounds better when people ask.. What do you do? Responding with "I am an Air Line Pilot" sounds better and cooler than "I am a stay at home parent". We don't even have a good description for it...

Not sure why one would want to have kids then have both spouses hit the road? Why have kids then?

Children including teens need unconditional love. When two pilots have kids you are simply telling them that something is more important then them. Now..what is it that is more important?

1. Noone said you don't need to be at home with them. That's why you bid opposite schedules.

2. SORRY.....what makes you right and others wrong when you say a parent absolutely must stay at home with the kids. I told you....my father wasn't around and my mother had to work to feed me. What is your answer to that? I got unconditional love and my mom worked.

3. Just because someone wants a career and kids does not mean they want to "sound cool" saying they are an airline pilot. That's stupid. What do you suggest the answer is when you have kids, quit your flying job and then the sole provider dies in a car accident? What do you do to provide then? Oh yeah, you are screwed!

4. Once again, I don't know why you say one wants to have kids and then "hit the road". You bid opposite schedules so one spouse is with the kids 24/7. I don't know what your beef with this is.

5. Two pilots having kids does not tell them their careers are more important than them. That's bull. Kids do need love and nurture...however, dropping everything in the world and not teaching them that the world does not only revolve around them is not good either. That's why we have the instant gratification and it's all about me generation.

6. Bottom line is you have your opinion and we have ours. Mind your own business and I will mind mine.

 

[capt. megadeth]

What do you think a two pilot marriage spouse would say to this on his/her death bed? "I am glad I got 2000K more flight hours instead of spending time with the kids?" or "I'm glad I got displaced into another jet and had to go to training and missed a cross country road trip with the family?"

This is a little dramatic. Besides, you yourself are away from the family because you chose to fly. One can say you are selfish too. If you are home on your days off with the entire family, how is it different if 2 pilots bid opposite schedules? One is always home and there are overlapping days when they are both home?

 

[capt. megadeth]

Divorce? I'd think a college educated woman would have the decision making skills to marry a lifetime partner. Another aspect of current culture: divorce. It is way too easy today. Especially with kids, parents just opt out. And now that woman are working, it is easier to divorce cause they can get a job. "I'll just take the kids and get a job" she says! What about commitment? Sure life is tough, but we divorce too easy and kids pay the price. This is all part of the me-ism and materialism.

Give me a break!

So my dad beat my mom when he was drunk. Should she have just stayed because she made a committment? You are so out of touch with reality it's not even funny. You cannot control what someone else does! Your wonderful "partner" can change! People change!

I do think people are marry too quickly these days but you want someone to stay in a miserable marriage "for the kids"? Kids are not stupid and will see through this. They will not be better off this way.

 

[eddie]

Well I didn't read the entire thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating someone else's point of view, but I don't buy the opposite schedules theory.

I got married because I like spending time with my spouse. How dull would my life be if I didn't get to spend any time with my entire family!

I'm really glad only one of us is flying now. This is of course just my opinion.

 

[FlyUnited]

And a good decision that works well for your family. I have always had the luxury of dropping my line completely in the summer and staying home. I've also had the luxury of only working a couple of trips per month during the school year when the kids were in school. If a couple works together as a team, the opposite schedule theory can work very well in that you do get a lot more family time together when you are both home.

I also don't buy into Rez's theory that children should feel like the most important person in the world. I've met these people that believe that about themselves on the planes...it's not a pretty sight. Children, imho, should be taught that they are AN important part of their family and society, that they are not entitled to anything and must work hard to be productive citizens. They should know that they have the priviledge of being an American and should give back to this country for the rights they enjoy.

None of us are 'the most important person in the world' and none of us should teach our children that they are either.

 

[rdy4to]

I'll re-read my posts and consider your critique... I did repsond in haste so you might have a point...

As many pilots in the airlines, my family and I have had career setbacks. A couple of displacements, conecssionary TA's, furloughes, starting over a first year pay a few times...

I am glad my wife is home with the kids. My income pays the house note, food and clothing. My time at home is dedicated to family, kids and "keeping house".

Since I advocate a spouse remain at home (man or woman) I come across as a patriarch or chauvenist (sp). Oh well. Not sure how macho king I am at the house with a vacuum cleaner and toilet brush in hand with meals cooked.. (not at the same time! I do know the difference between a toilet and BBQ grill brush).


Not sure if it would be benifical to my family to re-educate (cost and time) and re-career to a 9-5 job. But not sure that is the issue, because one spouse is at home with the kids.

I guess the question is what is most important asset is ones life? Once you get pass the portfolio, careers, cars, the house, the jewelry, social status, etc it comes down to family. Kids and spouse. But yet we seem to spend most of our time going after the former....

Rez,
It's nice to get a more human picture of you except I really didn't need to see you with a toilet brush.

I guess, my biggest beef with your opinions is that they are so absolute with no give. Your intentions for your kids and the world's kids are in the right place, but remember that life is really good at throwing you a curve ball, I'm sure you know.

There are two pilot marriages where one spouse has quit to rear the kids and the results are mixed. There are two pilot marriages where they both work and again the results can be mixed, but all I can share is what I see. I have two really, really close friends whose lives I see working out just wonderfully. I've lived with another two pilot couple for almost a month saw how much time they spend together as a family. I can give you all the details, but really that could get a bit boring, but I'll try not to.

When it comes to two pilot marriages what type of pilot job and seniority really do make a lot of difference. I've seen my friends get many days off (up to ten during the month, not counting the other days off) together to spend as a family going on trips and hanging at home, probably more than you. Their children are never left with anyone else. But I'll admit that they are very lucky for their seniority and understanding employers. And yes, mom stayed with her infants for over 6 mos straight after birth; yes she breastfed (many airline employers do provide a breast pumping room in order enable moms to continue breastfeeding when they are home); my friend and her husband have the ability to do 3 day trips (gone only 2 nights a week). And she has the better job; benefits, pay, insurance, retirement. They have discussed the fact that if it comes down to it and someone needs to stay home it will be him. His decision since he's regional and she is major. My other friend is the only pilot in her two working parent marriage. She is corporate. While she is gone on some long trips boy does she get so much time at home, sometimes weeks at a time depending on the season. She has actually admited to me that her children actually behave better when she flies more often which isn't that often. (Don't feel the need to challenge this statement, it's her children, that's the way they are).

So all I ask is for you to recognize that maybe some pilot couples know what they are doing with their kids. And maybe they are doing exactly what you want for the world's children just not doing it your way. It's just a suggestion. Think about it.

Also, it seems to me that you don't have that good an opinion of pilots which makes me sad since that translates to the fact that you don't have that good an opinion of yourself in regards to your career. I knew I guy like you who was so disillusioned with this industry and unable to get out and start again that he didn't have much respect for other pilots. Now, I am playing mental health expert. It's just seems this way to me.

 

[rdy4to]

And a good decision that works well for your family. I have always had the luxury of dropping my line completely in the summer and staying home. I've also had the luxury of only working a couple of trips per month during the school year when the kids were in school. If a couple works together as a team, the opposite schedule theory can work very well in that you do get a lot more family time together when you are both home.

I also don't buy into Rez's theory that children should feel like the most important person in the world. I've met these people that believe that about themselves on the planes...it's not a pretty sight. Children, imho, should be taught that they are AN important part of their family and society, that they are not entitled to anything and must work hard to be productive citizens. They should know that they have the priviledge of being an American and should give back to this country for the rights they enjoy.

None of us are 'the most important person in the world' and none of us should teach our children that they are either.

Right on!! I totally agree. That is what I have been trying to say this whole time and your post was much shorter. People like you are people I want to have as role models.

 

[lifeguard]

. Not sure why a parent would intentionally be away when they don't have to....

REZ..You are confusing me. Why are you a pilot?????