Two people in Aviation with Kids. Does it work?

[Flyer1015]

PA? Are you aware of what's going on in Ann Arbor? Doesn't look like your boys are going to stay undefeated. GO BLUE!!!

My SOLE allegiance lies with Michigan, and NO WHERE else!

Puck Fenn State!

 

[FlyUnited]

One thing I can't do is get pregnant, lactate and breast feed. It is also proven that women are better at caring for infants than men.

Ok, here is the post in question. True, men cannot get pregnant nor can they breast feed, but where I took issue is where you stated that "It is also proven that women are better at caring for infants than men". Also, meaning, in addition to the above statement. What I asked for was your proof that women are better at caring for infants than men. We aren't talking about breastfeeding, we're talking care. There are women in prison for child abuse who can breastfeed a baby, does that make her a caring mother? (to answer your question. no, I didn't breastfeed....I didn't think it was fair that I would have to get up at night for every feeding. We took turns)

I've told you before to quote each part of the post and address the issue.

Just because you tell your wife what to do doesn't mean that everyone else is going to fall into line.

So YOU went to the grocery store, big deal, I go every week. Should we be impressed? The real question is, did you prepare the shopping list, decide what the family was having for all the meals, make sure to buy food the kids will eat for lunch, remember all the cleaning supplies that were used this week, AND take both kids with you too? If you didn't, so what.

 

[Flyer1015]

And nothing I hate more than Ohio State/Columbus!

That's my real reason for disliking Skybus.

 

[John Pennekamp]

And nothing I hate more than Ohio State/Columbus!

That's my real reason for disliking Skybus.

At least we got past #10 Penn St. And THE Ohio State University crushed Northwestern. Whoopee.

HAIL TO THE VICTORS, VALIANT, HAIL TO OUR FIGHTING HEROES! HAIL! HAIL! MICHIGAN! THE CHAMPIONS OF THE WEST!!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You accuse us of making personal attacks?

Obviously you don't know what a personal attack is...since you take everything personally..

a personal attack is something like this...

Though pilots tend to have a propensity for it, not all guys are d*cks. Some of us do "get it".

Hello, pot, meet the kettle.

John.. I am debating the issue. So you call me a d*ck and I say a parent should stay at home with kids...

This isn't a debate, it's you being ignorant and us calling you on it.

Another personal attack.. John.. you don't know the difference...

Unfortunately, you're too arrogant and pig headed to even consider that YOU man be the one out of line.

More personal attacks...

What is out of line?

You're welcome to your opinions, but not all opinions were meant to be shared in public.

So now you are [trying] limiting my ability to opine?

This isn't "public" john... this is a password controlled forum. Guess what.. if you don't want to read about aviation..then don't sign up/on. If you don't want to know about two pilots and kids...don't click this thread... John..c'mon.. you can do better than this..

Clearly, your impression of womens' place in society is on par with the men of Riyadh.

Again.. you are trying to debate your perception.. find a quote that says my opinions are oppressive to women?

That's fine, just don't get mad when some of us who are more enlightened disagree with you and don't take it personally.

A 50% divorce rate and kids on meds is enlightened? Our current society of hypercomsumption and hypermaterialism, competitivness, lawsuit crazy, everyone vs everyone is ELIGHTENED!!???

John... I haven't taken anything personally.. even your name calling.. see above..

And don't think you're going to "win" a debate on it.

maybe I am seeing both sides by particapting in the debate.

Oh, and when I need a lesson on how to post to a message board, I'll be sure to ask.

You know how to post... you can't debate on a message board... you fail to quote each part you respond to and you make your debate opponent into something that is easy for you to detest..... instead of the issue..

 

[Flyer1015]

HAIL TO THE VICTORS, VALIANT, HAIL TO OUR FIGHTING HEROES! HAIL! HAIL! MICHIGAN! THE CHAMPIONS OF THE WEST!!!

Um, you DO realize I am a Wolverine, right?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Um, you DO realize I am a Wolverine, right?

Uh, yeah... that's why I said it.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Obviously you don't know what a personal attack is...since you take everything personally..

a personal attack is something like this...




John.. I am debating the issue. So you call me a d*ck and I say a parent should stay at home with kids...



Another personal attack.. John.. you don't know the difference...




More personal attacks...

What is out of line?




So now you are [trying] limiting my ability to opine?

This isn't "public" john... this is a password controlled forum. Guess what.. if you don't want to read about aviation..then don't sign up/on. If you don't want to know about two pilots and kids...don't click this thread... John..c'mon.. you can do better than this..




Again.. you are trying to debate your perception.. find a quote that says my opinions are oppressive to women?




A 50% divorce rate and kids on meds is enlightened? Our current society of hypercomsumption and hypermaterialism, competitivness, lawsuit crazy, everyone vs everyone is ELIGHTENED!!???

John... I haven't taken anything personally.. even your name calling.. see above..




maybe I am seeing both sides by particapting in the debate.



You know how to post... you can't debate on a message board... you fail to quote each part you respond to and you make your debate opponent into something that is easy for you to detest..... instead of the issue..

Hey, Rez, ok, I'll give up. You win. Clearly you need that. You've earned your manhood for the day. You "outdebated me"

I think FlyUnited said it best when she said "Just because you tell your wife what to do doesn't mean that everyone else is going to fall into line".

Good luck, sir! JP out!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ok, here is the post in question. True, men cannot get pregnant nor can they breast feed, but where I took issue is where you stated that "It is also proven that women are better at caring for infants than men".

Well, if men are better why did women do it for the last 5000+ years?

Also, meaning, in addition to the above statement. What I asked for was your proof that women are better at caring for infants than men. We aren't talking about breastfeeding, we're talking care.

Women have a hormone called oxytocin..
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oxytocin

It helps with contractions, causes lactation and the desire to comfort and cuddle a cry child.

(sorry about the bold, I can't turn it off..)

<H3 class=post-title>The Trust and Caring Hormones

Oxytocin and vasopressin, made in the pituitary gland, turn out to be multi-purpose hormones, not just for giving milk and water balance. They are central in promoting social bonding behavior in rats and monkey, and now apparently also in humans. . Giving people a nasal spray of oxytocin raises their trust, as tested in a game devised by Kosfeld et al. They show that the effect of oxytocin on trust is not due to a general increase in the readiness to bear risks. Rather, it specifically affects an individual's willingness to accept social risks arising through interpersonal interactions. The results concur with animal research suggesting an essential role for oxytocin as a biological basis of prosocial approach behavior.

Oxytocin levels normally rise during physical interaction of children and their mothers. Seth Pollack has shown that this rise is not observed in children that have been neglected in Eastern European orphanages and then adopted by parents in the United States. These children have difficultly forming social relationships, even after being adopted into loving families, apparently because the oxytocin system has not developed to give a positive feeling about social interactions.

</H3>​

There are women in prison for child abuse who can breastfeed a baby, does that make her a caring mother?

Using incarcerated women for your debate doesn't help...

(to answer your question. no, I didn't breastfeed....I didn't think it was fair that I would have to get up at night for every feeding. We took turns)

Fair!? You denied your baby(ies) breast milk (or did you pump?) because you wanted equality in late night feedings??? This is the basis of my position... rejecting the needs of children for sociopolitical wants. I am not saying this was your entire modus operandus....

There is a huge debate on breast milk... is this why? Which do you think is better for an infant. Mom's milk or formula?

Just because you tell your wife what to do doesn't mean that everyone else is going to fall into line.

That woman is tough...

So YOU went to the grocery store, big deal, I go every week. Should we be impressed?

Does your man go alone with the kids so you can have some free time?

The real question is, did you prepare the shopping list, decide what the family was having for all the meals, make sure to buy food the kids will eat for lunch, remember all the cleaning supplies that were used this week, AND take both kids with you too?

Yes. What I didn't and couldn't do was lactate.

If you didn't, so what.

So men are helping more with domestic jobs and the answer is so what? Let me guess, you've been doing it since the begining of time and its our turn anyway? "Shut up and vacuum, boy?"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hey, Rez, ok, I'll give up. You win. Clearly you need that. You've earned your manhood for the day. You "outdebated me"

John... if you can stick with the debate...go for it... if you can't then resign....

I think FlyUnited said it best when she said "Just because you tell your wife what to do doesn't mean that everyone else is going to fall into line".

Another personal attack...this time on my wife...too

Good luck, sir! JP out!

.....

 

[FlyUnited]

Just so you understand, I did ALL of the wifey stuff for years. You keep ignoring the fact that, as I have stated, that I rarely worked. I didn't work for the first 2.5 years of their lives and I never worked in the summer. I dropped almost all my trips but retained 'sanity' trips when I needed them which was very occasionally. So please don't try to imply that I didn't do my fair share of childrearing, because I did.

I didn't breastfeed because I have never seen a study that shows that children become smarter or healthier as adults if their mother breastfed them. I also had an epidural for the same reason. I'm not a martyr. If I was wrong, too late! I feel I gave up a lot of myself for the last 20 years for my kids but I can assure you, had my husband tried to force me, then bets would have been off. On the other hand, I wouldn't have changed it for anything, I love my kids and loved being there with them.

And for your question about my husband taking the kids to the grocery store so I could have a break. Are you kidding me???? Of course. Why shouldn't I be entitled to a break? I saw him pulling into the driveway from a trip and I was getting into my swimsuit to swim some laps (or whatever else I wanted to do without kids)..........the next few hours were all for ME!!!!!!

Nowadays I just make the kids get in the car and they go get the things we need (it's good to have your kids when you're young.) 44 and almost done!!!!!!! :beer:

Here's my advise, forget about all this forced slave labor (as some of the men on this board think women should be subjected to).......just get it done while you are young so you can enjoy your freedom while you still have your teeth.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Just so you understand, I did ALL of the wifey stuff for years. You keep ignoring the fact that, as I have stated, that I rarely worked. I didn't work for the first 2.5 years of their lives and I never worked in the summer. I dropped almost all my trips but retained 'sanity' trips when I needed them which was very occasionally. So please don't try to imply that I didn't do my fair share of childrearing, because I did.

Not implying at all.... as typical with the message boards, there is more in common than not and many argue the fine details only to realize that we agree...

I do think you had more luxury to drop trips and control your sched than many parents in any industry? No?

I didn't breastfeed because I have never seen a study that shows that children become smarter or healthier as adults if their mother breastfed them.

Maybe... I just think what nature serves has got to be better than a corporate food processing plant.. but maybe not...

I also had an epidural for the same reason. I'm not a martyr. If I was wrong, too late!

What is the deal with you women? An epidural is a sign of weakness? take the drug! You know men couldn't handle it and women died during childbirth for years in history...

I feel I gave up a lot of myself for the last 20 years for my kids but I can assure you, had my husband tried to force me, then bets would have been off.

A sacrifice we choose....

On the other hand, I wouldn't have changed it for anything, I love my kids and loved being there with them.

Now you are talking...

And for your question about my husband taking the kids to the grocery store so I could have a break. Are you kidding me???? Of course. Why shouldn't I be entitled to a break?

Entitled is a strong word .. but yeah...in our society you deserve one!

I saw him pulling into the driveway from a trip and I was getting into my swimsuit to swim some laps (or whatever else I wanted to do without kids)..........the next few hours were all for ME!!!!!!

out of the frying pan and into the fire for him...but you know this cause you flew trips too....

Nowadays I just make the kids get in the car and they go get the things we need (it's good to have your kids when you're young.) 44 and almost done!!!!!!! :beer:

Agreed! If the children aren't helping then they are hindering.. Child labor laws not apply in the household... give em chores!

Here's my advise, forget about all this forced slave labor (as some of the men on this board think women should be subjected to)

I think we all work to help each other...

.......just get it done while you are young so you can enjoy your freedom while you still have your teeth.

Might not happen for us.... but these are the choices we made!

:beer:

 

[FlyUnited]

Edit feature is gone: sorry

Clarify: I do realize that breastfeeding is better (especially for the husbands who get to sleep every night). The reason for my choice, I didn't find any studies that showed a difference in IQ of people who were breastfed vs those who were not. Therefore, he was getting up with the little ones as often as I was (luckily for him, he still flew....so he didn't have to do it as often anyway. Unluckily for him, I kept track and he made up for it on his days home. HA)

This is one of those threads that neither side will ever give up on. My kids turned out great as I'm sure yours will too. I honestly believe the single most important thing a baby/child needs is LOVE from their parents. I also believe that children learn what they see, a father should certainly respect his wife enough to understand that she has needs and time off. If that is hard for you to understand, perhaps it is time for some self reflection.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

agreed!

 

[capt. megadeth]

But if you're not married, with kids, and the unthinkable 'breakup' happens... then good luck with alimony, child custody rights, child visitation rights, etc.

The unfortnate reality in todays world is that even if you don't agree with the concept of marriage, marriage is a necessity for the protection of kids.

Uh, dude, I make 3 times what my fiancee does....I don't need child support or alimony. I think alimony is a bunch of bull $hit anyways. I can be screwed out of child support whether I am divorced or not but thanks for the, uh, "advice".

Also, you say there is a 50% my marriage will end in divorce....well then, why bother? Anyone that thinks two people that love eachother will be different as parents if they have an overpriced Saturday night ceremony and sign a piece of paper as opposed to not doing so has a screw loose.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Considering that the men in your "part of the nation" don't have the decency to support their own children, thanks for clarifying why it is important for women to remain in the workforce Flyer.

Nah, I think it's better to run around the court system trying to get alimony. Or, better yet, depend on your husband's life insurance in case something happens to him.

 

[capt. megadeth]

John, mega and FlyUAL just can't seem to debate the issue so you go for personal tactics.

...

Uh, I don't need to debate the issue nor do I want to. It's not for you to tell me if I should or shouldn't work as a mother. It's up to me and I prefer it when people mind their own f***ing business....something you clearly cannot do.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I will tell you that there are MANY women here who have kids SIMPLY so their welfare checks can be higher. wtf? What kind of reason is that to have kids?

I agree with you there. One....fine...you made a mistake. Two....uh, no more money for you. Three...it's time for some mandatory birth control (I'd prefer hysterectomy but I'd probably seem a little evil). If you can't afford them, you don't have a right to have them. Teee heee.....can't wait to see what high and almighty Rez O. Lewshun has to say about this one. :laugh:

 

[capt. megadeth]

A 50% divorce rate and kids on meds is enlightened? Our current society of hypercomsumption and hypermaterialism, competitivness, lawsuit crazy, everyone vs everyone is ELIGHTENED!!???

Rez...it's clear that you truly care about your kids and everyone else's and I think that's great.
However, do you really think EVERY kid on meds has a 2 working parent household? Do you think there are no kids that are messed up that had mommy at home all the time? GMAFB!

 

[capt. megadeth]

There is a huge debate on breast milk... is this why? Which do you think is better for an infant. Mom's milk or formula?

LOL! I'm going to try to breastfeed because it's free. Is that bad? LOL! :laugh: