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Two people in Aviation with Kids. Does it work?

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And just to clarify, I'm not saying the ONLY reason to get married is to protect kids. You should still marry for the right reasons... that you two are in love, support each other, want each other, want to live together, raise kids, settle down, etc.

My argument in the post above is for those people who are already in love, supporting each other, living together, settled down, and raising a kid. If things like that aren't enough to get married, then lastly consider the protection of children as reason enough to get married.

Kids deserve better in case the unthinkable happens.
 
Untrue. Child support, visitation and custody battles happen, regardless of marriage.

Different by different state, and even within a state, different by different counties. In my county, a man/woman who isn't married and yet has kids has a he!! of a time getting visitation and custodial battles won in case of a separation. Then again, in our county, people having kids out of wed-lock is heavily looked 'down' upon.

I think it's different by different states and counties.


Where I'm from, if you are a woman with kids out of wedlock, and you breakup with the man, you're in trouble (good luck with alimony, visitation, and custodial rights).

Again, not to paint some nasty picture, nor to will ill upon anyone. That is not my intention. Just merely pointing out truth as it exists in some parts of this nation.
 
Different by different state, and even within a state, different by different counties. In my county, a man/woman who isn't married and yet has kids has a he!! of a time getting visitation and custodial battles won in case of a separation. Then again, in our county, people having kids out of wed-lock is heavily looked 'down' upon.

I think it's different by different states and counties.


Where I'm from, if you are a woman with kids out of wedlock, and you breakup with the man, you're in trouble (good luck with alimony, visitation, and custodial rights).

Again, not to paint some nasty picture, nor to will ill upon anyone. That is not my intention. Just merely pointing out truth as it exists in some parts of this nation.

WTF do you live, Alabama? YGBSM!!!

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. So you knock her up, everything'll be ok, just don't get married so that you never have to pay child support. Yeah, you'll get away with that. :rolleyes: Keep dreaming.
 
No, not AL! LOL!

PA.

Child support you can get where I live. BUT, it's the other stuff I mentioned in the paranthesis above... alimony, visitation, and custodial rights. Unless you were married, you're SOL in the area I live.


And btw, about that child support thing... I knew this girl friend in high school who got knocked up in 10th grade and had her baby. The guy was a 18 yr old senior. I don't know what job he had or how much he made, but she did tell me she couldn't get the state to work in her favor, and she didn't get any child support from him.

Believe me, in that place I live, you better be married if you have kids. Otherwise, your life will be miserable hel! if you break up and kids are involved.

Don't blame me, I'm just saying that's how it is in certain parts of this country.
 
Sure Flyer, I see such a huge amount of men raising kids alone in certain "parts of the nation" just so he won't have to pay child support. It's pay to play in this country, he either has custody of the kids or he's paying child support. You say she'll have trouble getting visitation? Not likely. I don't think many men from your "part of the nation" are capable of raising children (that is the truth if we are to believe what you have been spewing).

Considering that the men in your "part of the nation" don't have the decency to support their own children, thanks for clarifying why it is important for women to remain in the workforce Flyer.

(I always thought the 'Bubbas' were creepy but you proved it)
 
Rez, your debates about the union and such are mildly entertaining,

And I find your replies on the topic self defeating and of resignation, but that is another thread..


but in this topic, you're way out of your league.

Not sure if you know the qualifications to be a member of society and to be a parent. Do you have a qualifications fact sheet?



You're pushing your opinion as a universal fact and speaking of something you know nothing about.

Does the above translate to: "I don't agree with you" or do I really don't know what I am talking about?

I could be wrong but it seems the womens journey from the 1950s to today hasn't reached the destination.

I am not the one in the 'mom, wife, work' quandry but I am the bad guy for recognizing it?

You are not a woman, and never will be.

Never say never.


Stop telling women what their place in society ought to be.

Respectfully I think they are still trying to find it.

If I find a genie lamp on the beach I'm going to use one of my wishes on you, and you can report back to us on how you like it. Then we'll all get a big laugh at your expense and tell you to deal with it because that's your place in society.

John, mega and FlyUAL just can't seem to debate the issue so you go for personal tactics.

I've told you before to quote each part of the post and address the issue. You guys are reading the post then attaching to your perception of it and then replying to your perception. Stick to the issue...


So in YOUR mind (there is no proof) the ability to take care of an infant has only one (ok, two) reasons.......breasts?!? You must be kidding me.

Again...quote my post so you can debate... here is what I said...

Do you want to debate a womens use of oxytocin and breast milk vs a man ability? Yes there is formula, breast pumping, etc... Call me every/any name in the book, I just think a woman can breast feed better than a man.

Going out on a limb here, but your kids weren't bottle fed, were they?

She did initially but the little one had digestive problems so we went to formula. But I think Breast milk is best. (I hope that is ok)

Did you BF or bottle?

What you have missed from every poster here is that no one is saying it's great to leave the children with strangers to go work when money isn't a factor. We are talking about women who want to go on a couple of trips a month and have stated that they will work opposite schedules with their husbands, if need be.

You had the luxury of having allot of control over your schedule. Aside from flying.. even the dual 9 to 5 career incomes is tough on kids.

Do you believe that the men of this world are such lousy caretakers that their children will be harmed for a lifetime over spending the weekend with Dad?

Not sure where you got this...obviously your perception of what I said seems to control your debate, since you won't quote my post. in fact I said if Mr. Mom works for families then great... I know my kids like it better when we are all together.. and thier behavior gets difficult when I leave on a trip.


No wonder your wife stays home, I would too. You likely to hurt one of them if she even goes to the grocery store alone.

Funny, I was at the grocery store the other day, doing the shopping.. If you had a plan view of my path thru the grocery store it would look like a Family Circus cartoon. And I just thought how quick you or mega could go thru a grocery store...never going back to an asile...
 
Sure Flyer, I see such a huge amount of men raising kids alone in certain "parts of the nation" just so he won't have to pay child support. It's pay to play in this country, he either has custody of the kids or he's paying child support. You say she'll have trouble getting visitation? Not likely. I don't think many men from your "part of the nation" are capable of raising children (that is the truth if we are to believe what you have been spewing).

Considering that the men in your "part of the nation" don't have the decency to support their own children, thanks for clarifying why it is important for women to remain in the workforce Flyer.

(I always thought the 'Bubbas' were creepy but you proved it)

Don't blame me, I had nothing to do with the above state laws and society. I don't judge people based on marriage w/ kids or kids out of wedlock. That is not my thing to judge. Unfortunately, state laws, and more so specific county laws is what sets the bar for situations like these. If anything, blame the people who voted in laws/rules like these. And blame lawyers here who aren't interested in taking up cases of women who had kids out of wedlock. They'll simply tell you they have 'other' cases and that they are 'too busy.'

Considering that the men in your "part of the nation" don't have the decency to support their own children, thanks for clarifying why it is important for women to remain in the workforce Flyer.

Careful what you spew. "My part of the nation" is great for the most part. I spoke about one particular county where I'm from, and another one very close by. Cities here are excellent for the most part. You can judge the men here, but a *few* places here are desolate, broken down, ghettos, etc.

I will tell you that there are MANY women here who have kids SIMPLY so their welfare checks can be higher. wtf? What kind of reason is that to have kids?


Rez,

Stop telling women what their place in society ought to be. Respectfully I think they are still trying to find it.
I've thought long and hard about it, and I conclude that I concur with your statement of still trying to find it.
 
Ok, so I guess now we can't edit our own posts.

I meant:

Rez,

Respectfully I think they are still trying to find it.

I've thought long and hard about it, and I conclude that I concur with your statement of still trying to find it.


*** The quote
 
And I find your replies on the topic self defeating and of resignation, but that is another thread..

Not sure if you know the qualifications to be a member of society and to be a parent. Do you have a qualifications fact sheet?

Does the above translate to: "I don't agree with you" or do I really don't know what I am talking about?

I could be wrong but it seems the womens journey from the 1950s to today hasn't reached the destination.

I am not the one in the 'mom, wife, work' quandry but I am the bad guy for recognizing it?

Never say never.

Respectfully I think they are still trying to find it.

John, mega and FlyUAL just can't seem to debate the issue so you go for personal tactics.

I've told you before to quote each part of the post and address the issue. You guys are reading the post then attaching to your perception of it and then replying to your perception. Stick to the issue...

Again...quote my post so you can debate... here is what I said...

She did initially but the little one had digestive problems so we went to formula. But I think Breast milk is best. (I hope that is ok)

Did you BF or bottle?

You had the luxury of having allot of control over your schedule. Aside from flying.. even the dual 9 to 5 career incomes is tough on kids.

Not sure where you got this...obviously your perception of what I said seems to control your debate, since you won't quote my post. in fact I said if Mr. Mom works for families then great... I know my kids like it better when we are all together.. and thier behavior gets difficult when I leave on a trip.

Funny, I was at the grocery store the other day, doing the shopping.. If you had a plan view of my path thru the grocery store it would look like a Family Circus cartoon. And I just thought how quick you or mega could go thru a grocery store...never going back to an asile...

You accuse us of making personal attacks?

John, mega and FlyUAL just can't seem to debate the issue so you go for personal tactics.

Hello, pot, meet the kettle.

This isn't a debate, it's you being ignorant and us calling you on it. Unfortunately, you're too arrogant and pig headed to even consider that YOU man be the one out of line. You're welcome to your opinions, but not all opinions were meant to be shared in public. Clearly, your impression of womens' place in society is on par with the men of Riyadh. That's fine, just don't get mad when some of us who are more enlightened disagree with you and don't take it personally. And don't think you're going to "win" a debate on it. Oh, and when I need a lesson on how to post to a message board, I'll be sure to ask.
 
One thing I can't do is get pregnant, lactate and breast feed. It is also proven that women are better at caring for infants than men.

Ok, here is the post in question. True, men cannot get pregnant nor can they breast feed, but where I took issue is where you stated that "It is also proven that women are better at caring for infants than men". Also, meaning, in addition to the above statement. What I asked for was your proof that women are better at caring for infants than men. We aren't talking about breastfeeding, we're talking care. There are women in prison for child abuse who can breastfeed a baby, does that make her a caring mother? (to answer your question. no, I didn't breastfeed....I didn't think it was fair that I would have to get up at night for every feeding. We took turns)

I've told you before to quote each part of the post and address the issue.
Just because you tell your wife what to do doesn't mean that everyone else is going to fall into line.

So YOU went to the grocery store, big deal, I go every week. Should we be impressed? The real question is, did you prepare the shopping list, decide what the family was having for all the meals, make sure to buy food the kids will eat for lunch, remember all the cleaning supplies that were used this week, AND take both kids with you too? If you didn't, so what.
 
And nothing I hate more than Ohio State/Columbus!

That's my real reason for disliking Skybus. :)

At least we got past #10 Penn St. And THE Ohio State University crushed Northwestern. Whoopee.

HAIL TO THE VICTORS, VALIANT, HAIL TO OUR FIGHTING HEROES! HAIL! HAIL! MICHIGAN! THE CHAMPIONS OF THE WEST!!!
 
You accuse us of making personal attacks?

Obviously you don't know what a personal attack is...since you take everything personally..

a personal attack is something like this...

Though pilots tend to have a propensity for it, not all guys are d*cks. Some of us do "get it".



Hello, pot, meet the kettle.

John.. I am debating the issue. So you call me a d*ck and I say a parent should stay at home with kids...

This isn't a debate, it's you being ignorant and us calling you on it.

Another personal attack.. John.. you don't know the difference...


Unfortunately, you're too arrogant and pig headed to even consider that YOU man be the one out of line.

More personal attacks...

What is out of line?


You're welcome to your opinions, but not all opinions were meant to be shared in public.

So now you are [trying] limiting my ability to opine?

This isn't "public" john... this is a password controlled forum. Guess what.. if you don't want to read about aviation..then don't sign up/on. If you don't want to know about two pilots and kids...don't click this thread... John..c'mon.. you can do better than this..


Clearly, your impression of womens' place in society is on par with the men of Riyadh.

Again.. you are trying to debate your perception.. find a quote that says my opinions are oppressive to women?


That's fine, just don't get mad when some of us who are more enlightened disagree with you and don't take it personally.

A 50% divorce rate and kids on meds is enlightened? Our current society of hypercomsumption and hypermaterialism, competitivness, lawsuit crazy, everyone vs everyone is ELIGHTENED!!???

John... I haven't taken anything personally.. even your name calling.. see above..


And don't think you're going to "win" a debate on it.

maybe I am seeing both sides by particapting in the debate.

Oh, and when I need a lesson on how to post to a message board, I'll be sure to ask.

You know how to post... you can't debate on a message board... you fail to quote each part you respond to and you make your debate opponent into something that is easy for you to detest..... instead of the issue..
 
Obviously you don't know what a personal attack is...since you take everything personally..

a personal attack is something like this...




John.. I am debating the issue. So you call me a d*ck and I say a parent should stay at home with kids...



Another personal attack.. John.. you don't know the difference...




More personal attacks...

What is out of line?




So now you are [trying] limiting my ability to opine?

This isn't "public" john... this is a password controlled forum. Guess what.. if you don't want to read about aviation..then don't sign up/on. If you don't want to know about two pilots and kids...don't click this thread... John..c'mon.. you can do better than this..




Again.. you are trying to debate your perception.. find a quote that says my opinions are oppressive to women?




A 50% divorce rate and kids on meds is enlightened? Our current society of hypercomsumption and hypermaterialism, competitivness, lawsuit crazy, everyone vs everyone is ELIGHTENED!!???

John... I haven't taken anything personally.. even your name calling.. see above..




maybe I am seeing both sides by particapting in the debate.



You know how to post... you can't debate on a message board... you fail to quote each part you respond to and you make your debate opponent into something that is easy for you to detest..... instead of the issue..

Hey, Rez, ok, I'll give up. You win. Clearly you need that. You've earned your manhood for the day. You "outdebated me"

I think FlyUnited said it best when she said "Just because you tell your wife what to do doesn't mean that everyone else is going to fall into line".

Good luck, sir! JP out!
 
Ok, here is the post in question. True, men cannot get pregnant nor can they breast feed, but where I took issue is where you stated that "It is also proven that women are better at caring for infants than men".

Well, if men are better why did women do it for the last 5000+ years?


Also, meaning, in addition to the above statement. What I asked for was your proof that women are better at caring for infants than men. We aren't talking about breastfeeding, we're talking care.

Women have a hormone called oxytocin..
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oxytocin

It helps with contractions, causes lactation and the desire to comfort and cuddle a cry child.

(sorry about the bold, I can't turn it off..)
<H3 class=post-title>The Trust and Caring Hormones

Oxytocin and vasopressin, made in the pituitary gland, turn out to be multi-purpose hormones, not just for giving milk and water balance. They are central in promoting social bonding behavior in rats and monkey, and now apparently also in humans. . Giving people a nasal spray of oxytocin raises their trust, as tested in a game devised by Kosfeld et al. They show that the effect of oxytocin on trust is not due to a general increase in the readiness to bear risks. Rather, it specifically affects an individual's willingness to accept social risks arising through interpersonal interactions. The results concur with animal research suggesting an essential role for oxytocin as a biological basis of prosocial approach behavior.

Oxytocin levels normally rise during physical interaction of children and their mothers.
Seth Pollack has shown that this rise is not observed in children that have been neglected in Eastern European orphanages and then adopted by parents in the United States. These children have difficultly forming social relationships, even after being adopted into loving families, apparently because the oxytocin system has not developed to give a positive feeling about social interactions.

</H3>​

There are women in prison for child abuse who can breastfeed a baby, does that make her a caring mother?

Using incarcerated women for your debate doesn't help...

(to answer your question. no, I didn't breastfeed....I didn't think it was fair that I would have to get up at night for every feeding. We took turns)

Fair!? You denied your baby(ies) breast milk (or did you pump?) because you wanted equality in late night feedings??? This is the basis of my position... rejecting the needs of children for sociopolitical wants. I am not saying this was your entire modus operandus....

There is a huge debate on breast milk... is this why? Which do you think is better for an infant. Mom's milk or formula?

Just because you tell your wife what to do doesn't mean that everyone else is going to fall into line.

That woman is tough...

So YOU went to the grocery store, big deal, I go every week. Should we be impressed?

Does your man go alone with the kids so you can have some free time?


The real question is, did you prepare the shopping list, decide what the family was having for all the meals, make sure to buy food the kids will eat for lunch, remember all the cleaning supplies that were used this week, AND take both kids with you too?

Yes. What I didn't and couldn't do was lactate.

If you didn't, so what.

So men are helping more with domestic jobs and the answer is so what? Let me guess, you've been doing it since the begining of time and its our turn anyway? "Shut up and vacuum, boy?"
 
Hey, Rez, ok, I'll give up. You win. Clearly you need that. You've earned your manhood for the day. You "outdebated me"

John... if you can stick with the debate...go for it... if you can't then resign....

I think FlyUnited said it best when she said "Just because you tell your wife what to do doesn't mean that everyone else is going to fall into line".

Another personal attack...this time on my wife...too

Good luck, sir! JP out!

.....
 
Just so you understand, I did ALL of the wifey stuff for years. You keep ignoring the fact that, as I have stated, that I rarely worked. I didn't work for the first 2.5 years of their lives and I never worked in the summer. I dropped almost all my trips but retained 'sanity' trips when I needed them which was very occasionally. So please don't try to imply that I didn't do my fair share of childrearing, because I did.

I didn't breastfeed because I have never seen a study that shows that children become smarter or healthier as adults if their mother breastfed them. I also had an epidural for the same reason. I'm not a martyr. If I was wrong, too late! I feel I gave up a lot of myself for the last 20 years for my kids but I can assure you, had my husband tried to force me, then bets would have been off. On the other hand, I wouldn't have changed it for anything, I love my kids and loved being there with them.

And for your question about my husband taking the kids to the grocery store so I could have a break. Are you kidding me???? Of course. Why shouldn't I be entitled to a break? I saw him pulling into the driveway from a trip and I was getting into my swimsuit to swim some laps (or whatever else I wanted to do without kids)..........the next few hours were all for ME!!!!!!

Nowadays I just make the kids get in the car and they go get the things we need (it's good to have your kids when you're young.) 44 and almost done!!!!!!! :beer:

Here's my advise, forget about all this forced slave labor (as some of the men on this board think women should be subjected to).......just get it done while you are young so you can enjoy your freedom while you still have your teeth.
 
Just so you understand, I did ALL of the wifey stuff for years. You keep ignoring the fact that, as I have stated, that I rarely worked. I didn't work for the first 2.5 years of their lives and I never worked in the summer. I dropped almost all my trips but retained 'sanity' trips when I needed them which was very occasionally. So please don't try to imply that I didn't do my fair share of childrearing, because I did.

Not implying at all.... as typical with the message boards, there is more in common than not and many argue the fine details only to realize that we agree...

I do think you had more luxury to drop trips and control your sched than many parents in any industry? No?

I didn't breastfeed because I have never seen a study that shows that children become smarter or healthier as adults if their mother breastfed them.

Maybe... I just think what nature serves has got to be better than a corporate food processing plant.. but maybe not...

I also had an epidural for the same reason. I'm not a martyr. If I was wrong, too late!

What is the deal with you women? An epidural is a sign of weakness? take the drug! You know men couldn't handle it and women died during childbirth for years in history...


I feel I gave up a lot of myself for the last 20 years for my kids but I can assure you, had my husband tried to force me, then bets would have been off.

A sacrifice we choose....


On the other hand, I wouldn't have changed it for anything, I love my kids and loved being there with them.

Now you are talking...

And for your question about my husband taking the kids to the grocery store so I could have a break. Are you kidding me???? Of course. Why shouldn't I be entitled to a break?

Entitled is a strong word .. but yeah...in our society you deserve one!


I saw him pulling into the driveway from a trip and I was getting into my swimsuit to swim some laps (or whatever else I wanted to do without kids)..........the next few hours were all for ME!!!!!!

out of the frying pan and into the fire for him...but you know this cause you flew trips too....

Nowadays I just make the kids get in the car and they go get the things we need (it's good to have your kids when you're young.) 44 and almost done!!!!!!! :beer:

Agreed! If the children aren't helping then they are hindering.. Child labor laws not apply in the household... give em chores!

Here's my advise, forget about all this forced slave labor (as some of the men on this board think women should be subjected to)

I think we all work to help each other...


.......just get it done while you are young so you can enjoy your freedom while you still have your teeth.

Might not happen for us.... but these are the choices we made!

:beer:
 
Edit feature is gone: sorry

Clarify: I do realize that breastfeeding is better (especially for the husbands who get to sleep every night). The reason for my choice, I didn't find any studies that showed a difference in IQ of people who were breastfed vs those who were not. Therefore, he was getting up with the little ones as often as I was (luckily for him, he still flew....so he didn't have to do it as often anyway. Unluckily for him, I kept track and he made up for it on his days home. HA)

This is one of those threads that neither side will ever give up on. My kids turned out great as I'm sure yours will too. I honestly believe the single most important thing a baby/child needs is LOVE from their parents. I also believe that children learn what they see, a father should certainly respect his wife enough to understand that she has needs and time off. If that is hard for you to understand, perhaps it is time for some self reflection.
 
But if you're not married, with kids, and the unthinkable 'breakup' happens... then good luck with alimony, child custody rights, child visitation rights, etc.

The unfortnate reality in todays world is that even if you don't agree with the concept of marriage, marriage is a necessity for the protection of kids.

Uh, dude, I make 3 times what my fiancee does....I don't need child support or alimony. I think alimony is a bunch of bull $hit anyways. I can be screwed out of child support whether I am divorced or not but thanks for the, uh, "advice".

Also, you say there is a 50% my marriage will end in divorce....well then, why bother? Anyone that thinks two people that love eachother will be different as parents if they have an overpriced Saturday night ceremony and sign a piece of paper as opposed to not doing so has a screw loose.
 
Considering that the men in your "part of the nation" don't have the decency to support their own children, thanks for clarifying why it is important for women to remain in the workforce Flyer.

Nah, I think it's better to run around the court system trying to get alimony. Or, better yet, depend on your husband's life insurance in case something happens to him. :rolleyes:
 
John, mega and FlyUAL just can't seem to debate the issue so you go for personal tactics.

...

Uh, I don't need to debate the issue nor do I want to. It's not for you to tell me if I should or shouldn't work as a mother. It's up to me and I prefer it when people mind their own f***ing business....something you clearly cannot do.
 
I will tell you that there are MANY women here who have kids SIMPLY so their welfare checks can be higher. wtf? What kind of reason is that to have kids?

I agree with you there. One....fine...you made a mistake. Two....uh, no more money for you. Three...it's time for some mandatory birth control (I'd prefer hysterectomy but I'd probably seem a little evil). If you can't afford them, you don't have a right to have them. Teee heee.....can't wait to see what high and almighty Rez O. Lewshun has to say about this one. :laugh:
 
A 50% divorce rate and kids on meds is enlightened? Our current society of hypercomsumption and hypermaterialism, competitivness, lawsuit crazy, everyone vs everyone is ELIGHTENED!!???

Rez...it's clear that you truly care about your kids and everyone else's and I think that's great.
However, do you really think EVERY kid on meds has a 2 working parent household? Do you think there are no kids that are messed up that had mommy at home all the time? GMAFB!
 

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