Two people in Aviation with Kids. Does it work?

[capt. megadeth]

Dude! I LOVE YOU!

A guy that gets it...

:beer:

What's chauvinist is that you insist you can do what they do. You can't and you'll never have to. This is why she told you to "shut your pie hole". If you're male, you have no idea how much pressure the modern woman faces having to decide between career and family, especially in aviation. As many have pointed out here, in this business, you can't just take a few years off, then go back like most careers. Take a few moments and imagine yourself in her situation before you lecture. What would YOU do?

From the moment a woman makes it known she's pregnant, she's expected to take her career off the table and put her family first. Everyone she encounters throughout her pregnancy will ask her if she's going to quit or how she's going to do it. Our society expects women to be equals professionally, but in the background they're still expected to be June Cleaver. That's not fair.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Dude! I LOVE YOU!

A guy that gets it...

:beer:

Though pilots tend to have a propensity for it, not all guys are d*cks. Some of us do "get it".
:beer:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What's chauvinist is that you insist you can do what they do.

I can do what they do... and they can do what I do.. we just can't as well. One thing I can't do is get pregnant, lactate and breast feed. It is also proven that women are better at caring for infants than men. Women are better wired for it and have the right tools. Men don't. That doesn't mean a man can't raise an infant... Women are just better at it. Is that chauvinist?

There are guys/girls that can do things better than me. That is why I call my friends and ask for help. Everyone brings something to the table. We get to help each other and draw on each other strengths.

Family is not competition!!!

You can't and you'll never have to.

Why? Mega's mom had to be mother and father. The threat of single parenthood is real...that is why I am suggesting that we live our lives to prevent it. Either death or divorce its a real threat, so lets try to prevent divorce or death......

This is why she told you to "shut your pie hole". If you're male, you have no idea how much pressure the modern woman faces having to decide between career and family, especially in aviation.

We are just of different sociopolitical camps. Where does that pressure come from? Who is responsibile for it? Men? Other women? Society? The feminist movement was about choice.... (amongts other things...) And now that women are not bound to domestic homemaker, they trying to do both. It seems that June Cleaver/Laura Petry was not where women wanted to be but "having it all" has its issues too.... Sorry but the feminist or career women or whoever have created this quandry on their own... or has someone not lived up to their end of the deal? and if so ...what is the agreed upon deal?

Men are doing more in the house than ever before. More cooking, cleaning, diaper changes, ironing, laundry, etc... So whats the issue?

Do women have the right to be all things? Parent, wife and professional? Rights require responsibility. Its is like the double income issue. Poeple claim "two incomes are needed nowadays..." Well, what is going to happen when three incomes are needed? What is going to happen when women need to be Mom, wife, professional and _____.

As many have pointed out here, in this business, you can't just take a few years off, then go back like most careers. Take a few moments and imagine yourself in her situation before you lecture. What would YOU do?

More and more women are choosing one before the other. And some women are getting smart about it. 60 minutes ran segment about young women meeting guys at Harvard (or similiar Ivy league school). When the guys played 20 questions and found out that the girls were MBA students they stopped talking and walked away from the girls. Many girls have gone for the career only to find the marriage market isn't that great.

In addition, many girls who went for the career first were thinking that "they'll have kids later" not knowing that females only produce a limited number of eggs. When the girls hit thier mid 30's, pushing forties, it was difficult to even concieve. Something the "you can have it all" crowd failed to mention?

Many people are living well into thier 80's. Women are having children then going to college/grad school while the kids are in public school and starting their careers when the kids move out. Starting a career at 45 is not as easy as 25 but is being a professional, mom and wife easier?

As for the female pilots, I really empathize with them.. the travel schedule is tough...

From the moment a woman makes it known she's pregnant, she's expected to take her career off the table and put her family first.

What are the other alternatives? I mean if the husband says I'll quit and stay home (lots of families do this...) then great... But in a two career family one career, often, has to be secondary... Its up to each couple to decide which one will be...

Everyone she encounters throughout her pregnancy will ask her if she's going to quit or how she's going to do it. Our society expects women to be equals professionally, but in the background they're still expected to be June Cleaver.

Maybe society expects parents to raise thier own kids.

IF life was fair.... what would she do?

That's not fair.

You are right.... life is not fair....but we still have responsibilites to each other and our kids...

 

[FlyUnited]

What study says that women are better caretakers of infants? Do you have a link to that? And you're also implying that men only like stupid women? Yikes, that's who you want nurturing your children, a stupid, uneducated person. Good luck with that.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What study says that women are better caretakers of infants?

I never said a study... I said it was proven...

Do you want to debate a womens use of oxytocin and breast milk vs a man ability? Yes there is formula, breast pumping, etc... Call me every/any name in the book, I just think a woman can breast feed better than a man.

Do you have a link to that?

You want me to provide a link that shows a womans breast?

And you're also implying that men only like stupid women?

Poor spin... nice try. I'd say a woman who knows what she wants to do and doesn't have to get on a message board to defend her lifestyle choices or feel pressured when queried about a work/baby balance is pretty smart...

Yikes, that's who you want nurturing your children, a stupid, uneducated person. Good luck with that.

There are plenty of "uneducated" women (and men) in this country and this world that provide thier children with love, compassion, guidance, trust, respect, creditbility...etc.. IOW character. The secret is a parent has to be there.. Not going 8/miles a min at FL350 to define ones identity, to break free of domestic shackles and the "burden of laundry and bill paying...."

If the title of this thread was "Two people in avaition does it work" it would be a whole different story. But the kid factor changes everything. Putting childrens needs after sociopolitical/financial/personal wants is a choice. Regardless, you have proven that it can be done. You've raised children of good character.

I have yet to see a thread titled "One spouse in avaition the other at home with kids. Does it work?" (Perhpas mega is creating it now )

 

[John Pennekamp]

Rez, your debates about the union and such are mildly entertaining, but in this topic, you're way out of your league. You're pushing your opinion as a universal fact and speaking of something you know nothing about.

You are not a woman, and never will be. Stop telling women what their place in society ought to be.

If I find a genie lamp on the beach I'm going to use one of my wishes on you, and you can report back to us on how you like it. Then we'll all get a big laugh at your expense and tell you to deal with it because that's your place in society.

 

[FlyUnited]

So in YOUR mind (there is no proof) the ability to take care of an infant has only one (ok, two) reasons.......breasts?!? You must be kidding me. Going out on a limb here, but your kids weren't bottle fed, were they?

What you have missed from every poster here is that no one is saying it's great to leave the children with strangers to go work when money isn't a factor. We are talking about women who want to go on a couple of trips a month and have stated that they will work opposite schedules with their husbands, if need be. Do you believe that the men of this world are such lousy caretakers that their children will be harmed for a lifetime over spending the weekend with Dad? No wonder your wife stays home, I would too. You likely to hurt one of them if she even goes to the grocery store alone.

 

[Flyer1015]

women are better caretakers of infants?

Biologically and physiologically speaking, yes, so I agree with Rez on this one.

You're pushing your opinion as a universal fact and speaking of something you know nothing about.

You are not a woman, and never will be.

I've heard this one too many times before. "You're not a woman, so you don't know what it's like, etc." Just because Rez isn't a woman does not mean he isn't entitled to an opinion.

Stop telling women what their place in society ought to be.

I can't seem to recall him saying that women BELONG in the house, period, no questions asked.

No wonder your wife stays home, I would too. You likely to hurt one of them if she even goes to the grocery store alone.

Personal attacks necessary, are not.

Argue as mature adults, we must.

 

[Flyer1015]

I'm not really the wedding type and I don't think a wedding is necessary to raise kids but I do want to marry my honey cuz I love him with all my heart and soul and I want to spend the rest of my life with him.

Mega, while the physical act of marriage and being married isn't necessary for raising kids, marriage is a necessity to PROTECT the kids.

To protect them, in case the "unthinkable" happens... divorce.

The truth of the matter is that divorce rates among couples is at 50%. I know you love your man with your heart and soul, but so did every couple I know who ended up being divorced.

Now I'm not saying you are headed down that road. But just being a realist, the chance of a divorce is possible. In our nation, it stands at a 50% chance.

So that having been said, marriage is a necessity to protect the kids. I know, I know, it sucks, and kids should never be put in a situation like that.

But marriage that ends up in a divorce, at least has some protection afforded to kids. Child support helps kids, and alimony helps the non-bread winner who takes care of the kids. Visitation rights, and custodial rights are something else that are settled through state laws regarding divorce.


But if you're not married, with kids, and the unthinkable 'breakup' happens... then good luck with alimony, child custody rights, child visitation rights, etc.

The unfortnate reality in todays world is that even if you don't agree with the concept of marriage, marriage is a necessity for the protection of kids.

 

[FlyUnited]

Untrue. Child support, visitation and custody battles happen, regardless of marriage.

 

[Flyer1015]

And just to clarify, I'm not saying the ONLY reason to get married is to protect kids. You should still marry for the right reasons... that you two are in love, support each other, want each other, want to live together, raise kids, settle down, etc.

My argument in the post above is for those people who are already in love, supporting each other, living together, settled down, and raising a kid. If things like that aren't enough to get married, then lastly consider the protection of children as reason enough to get married.

Kids deserve better in case the unthinkable happens.

 

[Flyer1015]

Untrue. Child support, visitation and custody battles happen, regardless of marriage.

Different by different state, and even within a state, different by different counties. In my county, a man/woman who isn't married and yet has kids has a he!! of a time getting visitation and custodial battles won in case of a separation. Then again, in our county, people having kids out of wed-lock is heavily looked 'down' upon.

I think it's different by different states and counties.


Where I'm from, if you are a woman with kids out of wedlock, and you breakup with the man, you're in trouble (good luck with alimony, visitation, and custodial rights).

Again, not to paint some nasty picture, nor to will ill upon anyone. That is not my intention. Just merely pointing out truth as it exists in some parts of this nation.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Different by different state, and even within a state, different by different counties. In my county, a man/woman who isn't married and yet has kids has a he!! of a time getting visitation and custodial battles won in case of a separation. Then again, in our county, people having kids out of wed-lock is heavily looked 'down' upon.

I think it's different by different states and counties.


Where I'm from, if you are a woman with kids out of wedlock, and you breakup with the man, you're in trouble (good luck with alimony, visitation, and custodial rights).

Again, not to paint some nasty picture, nor to will ill upon anyone. That is not my intention. Just merely pointing out truth as it exists in some parts of this nation.

WTF do you live, Alabama? YGBSM!!!

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. So you knock her up, everything'll be ok, just don't get married so that you never have to pay child support. Yeah, you'll get away with that. Keep dreaming.

 

[Flyer1015]

No, not AL! LOL!

PA.

Child support you can get where I live. BUT, it's the other stuff I mentioned in the paranthesis above... alimony, visitation, and custodial rights. Unless you were married, you're SOL in the area I live.


And btw, about that child support thing... I knew this girl friend in high school who got knocked up in 10th grade and had her baby. The guy was a 18 yr old senior. I don't know what job he had or how much he made, but she did tell me she couldn't get the state to work in her favor, and she didn't get any child support from him.

Believe me, in that place I live, you better be married if you have kids. Otherwise, your life will be miserable hel! if you break up and kids are involved.

Don't blame me, I'm just saying that's how it is in certain parts of this country.

 

[FlyUnited]

Sure Flyer, I see such a huge amount of men raising kids alone in certain "parts of the nation" just so he won't have to pay child support. It's pay to play in this country, he either has custody of the kids or he's paying child support. You say she'll have trouble getting visitation? Not likely. I don't think many men from your "part of the nation" are capable of raising children (that is the truth if we are to believe what you have been spewing).

Considering that the men in your "part of the nation" don't have the decency to support their own children, thanks for clarifying why it is important for women to remain in the workforce Flyer.

(I always thought the 'Bubbas' were creepy but you proved it)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, your debates about the union and such are mildly entertaining,

And I find your replies on the topic self defeating and of resignation, but that is another thread..

but in this topic, you're way out of your league.

Not sure if you know the qualifications to be a member of society and to be a parent. Do you have a qualifications fact sheet?

You're pushing your opinion as a universal fact and speaking of something you know nothing about.

Does the above translate to: "I don't agree with you" or do I really don't know what I am talking about?

I could be wrong but it seems the womens journey from the 1950s to today hasn't reached the destination.

I am not the one in the 'mom, wife, work' quandry but I am the bad guy for recognizing it?

You are not a woman, and never will be.

Never say never.

Stop telling women what their place in society ought to be.

Respectfully I think they are still trying to find it.

If I find a genie lamp on the beach I'm going to use one of my wishes on you, and you can report back to us on how you like it. Then we'll all get a big laugh at your expense and tell you to deal with it because that's your place in society.

John, mega and FlyUAL just can't seem to debate the issue so you go for personal tactics.

I've told you before to quote each part of the post and address the issue. You guys are reading the post then attaching to your perception of it and then replying to your perception. Stick to the issue...

So in YOUR mind (there is no proof) the ability to take care of an infant has only one (ok, two) reasons.......breasts?!? You must be kidding me.

Again...quote my post so you can debate... here is what I said...

Do you want to debate a womens use of oxytocin and breast milk vs a man ability? Yes there is formula, breast pumping, etc... Call me every/any name in the book, I just think a woman can breast feed better than a man.

Going out on a limb here, but your kids weren't bottle fed, were they?

She did initially but the little one had digestive problems so we went to formula. But I think Breast milk is best. (I hope that is ok)

Did you BF or bottle?

What you have missed from every poster here is that no one is saying it's great to leave the children with strangers to go work when money isn't a factor. We are talking about women who want to go on a couple of trips a month and have stated that they will work opposite schedules with their husbands, if need be.

You had the luxury of having allot of control over your schedule. Aside from flying.. even the dual 9 to 5 career incomes is tough on kids.

Do you believe that the men of this world are such lousy caretakers that their children will be harmed for a lifetime over spending the weekend with Dad?

Not sure where you got this...obviously your perception of what I said seems to control your debate, since you won't quote my post. in fact I said if Mr. Mom works for families then great... I know my kids like it better when we are all together.. and thier behavior gets difficult when I leave on a trip.

No wonder your wife stays home, I would too. You likely to hurt one of them if she even goes to the grocery store alone.

Funny, I was at the grocery store the other day, doing the shopping.. If you had a plan view of my path thru the grocery store it would look like a Family Circus cartoon. And I just thought how quick you or mega could go thru a grocery store...never going back to an asile...

 

[Flyer1015]

Sure Flyer, I see such a huge amount of men raising kids alone in certain "parts of the nation" just so he won't have to pay child support. It's pay to play in this country, he either has custody of the kids or he's paying child support. You say she'll have trouble getting visitation? Not likely. I don't think many men from your "part of the nation" are capable of raising children (that is the truth if we are to believe what you have been spewing).

Considering that the men in your "part of the nation" don't have the decency to support their own children, thanks for clarifying why it is important for women to remain in the workforce Flyer.

(I always thought the 'Bubbas' were creepy but you proved it)

Don't blame me, I had nothing to do with the above state laws and society. I don't judge people based on marriage w/ kids or kids out of wedlock. That is not my thing to judge. Unfortunately, state laws, and more so specific county laws is what sets the bar for situations like these. If anything, blame the people who voted in laws/rules like these. And blame lawyers here who aren't interested in taking up cases of women who had kids out of wedlock. They'll simply tell you they have 'other' cases and that they are 'too busy.'

Considering that the men in your "part of the nation" don't have the decency to support their own children, thanks for clarifying why it is important for women to remain in the workforce Flyer.

Careful what you spew. "My part of the nation" is great for the most part. I spoke about one particular county where I'm from, and another one very close by. Cities here are excellent for the most part. You can judge the men here, but a *few* places here are desolate, broken down, ghettos, etc.

I will tell you that there are MANY women here who have kids SIMPLY so their welfare checks can be higher. wtf? What kind of reason is that to have kids?


Rez,

Stop telling women what their place in society ought to be. Respectfully I think they are still trying to find it.

I've thought long and hard about it, and I conclude that I concur with your statement of still trying to find it.

 

[Flyer1015]

Ok, so I guess now we can't edit our own posts.

I meant:

Rez,

Respectfully I think they are still trying to find it.

I've thought long and hard about it, and I conclude that I concur with your statement of still trying to find it.


*** The quote

 

[John Pennekamp]

And I find your replies on the topic self defeating and of resignation, but that is another thread..

Not sure if you know the qualifications to be a member of society and to be a parent. Do you have a qualifications fact sheet?

Does the above translate to: "I don't agree with you" or do I really don't know what I am talking about?

I could be wrong but it seems the womens journey from the 1950s to today hasn't reached the destination.

I am not the one in the 'mom, wife, work' quandry but I am the bad guy for recognizing it?

Never say never.

Respectfully I think they are still trying to find it.

John, mega and FlyUAL just can't seem to debate the issue so you go for personal tactics.

I've told you before to quote each part of the post and address the issue. You guys are reading the post then attaching to your perception of it and then replying to your perception. Stick to the issue...

Again...quote my post so you can debate... here is what I said...

She did initially but the little one had digestive problems so we went to formula. But I think Breast milk is best. (I hope that is ok)

Did you BF or bottle?

You had the luxury of having allot of control over your schedule. Aside from flying.. even the dual 9 to 5 career incomes is tough on kids.

Not sure where you got this...obviously your perception of what I said seems to control your debate, since you won't quote my post. in fact I said if Mr. Mom works for families then great... I know my kids like it better when we are all together.. and thier behavior gets difficult when I leave on a trip.

Funny, I was at the grocery store the other day, doing the shopping.. If you had a plan view of my path thru the grocery store it would look like a Family Circus cartoon. And I just thought how quick you or mega could go thru a grocery store...never going back to an asile...

You accuse us of making personal attacks?

John, mega and FlyUAL just can't seem to debate the issue so you go for personal tactics.

Hello, pot, meet the kettle.

This isn't a debate, it's you being ignorant and us calling you on it. Unfortunately, you're too arrogant and pig headed to even consider that YOU man be the one out of line. You're welcome to your opinions, but not all opinions were meant to be shared in public. Clearly, your impression of womens' place in society is on par with the men of Riyadh. That's fine, just don't get mad when some of us who are more enlightened disagree with you and don't take it personally. And don't think you're going to "win" a debate on it. Oh, and when I need a lesson on how to post to a message board, I'll be sure to ask.

 

[John Pennekamp]

No, not AL! LOL!

PA.

PA? Are you aware of what's going on in Ann Arbor? Doesn't look like your boys are going to stay undefeated. GO BLUE!!!