Two people in Aviation with Kids. Does it work?

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All I'm saying is that just because mommy stays at home doesn't guarantee a thing except that mommy will be completely dependent on her spouse and will be running around looking for alimony and child support should divorce time ever come. Personally, I wouldn't want to be in that situation. Call it "issues" or whatever, that's fine, but I won't be in that type of situation, EVER.

Maybe you girls are watching lifetime channel too much...

Exactly, and when the EX wife does go looking for support, all the men call her a gold digger and tell her to go find a job. You just can't win. Either she works or she doesn't. If she doesn't, then you better expect to support her well because if you don't, the courts will insist upon it.

There are women who want to stay at home... There are some who aspire to it.... that doesn't make men bad people. Some women and men know how to stay married. Some don't.

The sociopolitical mantra of the feminist have made it clear that women who don't prove thier value in the workplace are indentured servants of patriarchs... What they've done, combined with the babyboomers, is jack the divorce rate up and put our kids on meds. In short its all about me. Me me me. It breaks my heart in the summer seeing kids shuttle across the country as UMs from one parent to the other. Summertime means joint custody and yes the courts favor women. Why is that?

Now maybe you two have bought into that BS... maybe you haven't...

I find it quite admirable if a woman or spouse can operate a household, volunteer to the community and raise social assets of children. I think it is harder to do than being a female pilot. (whatever that means...)

Yet you haven't denied that your working/flying is economically viable and required to provided food, shelter and clothing. In fact you've stated quite clearly that it is about you: breaking free of the household shackles and four walls of domestic prison.

Give me a break. And your kids.

 

[FlyUnited]

I find it quite admirable if a woman or spouse can operate a household, volunteer to the community and raise social assets of children.

I did ALL of those things....and have been married over twenty years. So, did you do it yet or do you just preach?

One thing I did teach my kids was not to be in aviation. That seems like a very socially aware thing for a parent to do, don't you agree?

 

[satpak77]

Uh, no. I don't need to explain myself or vindicate myself to anyone. What I do is my business.

All I'm saying is that just because mommy stays at home doesn't guarantee a thing except that mommy will be completely dependent on her spouse and will be running around looking for alimony and child support should divorce time ever come. Personally, I wouldn't want to be in that situation. Call it "issues" or whatever, that's fine, but I won't be in that type of situation, EVER.

In summary, you suffer from abandonment issues and a fear of divorce. To such an extent, you qualify it with "EVER." You also stated "you don't have to explain yourself to anyone" (thumbing your nose at the men in the audience, as if you don't answer to anyone) but then go on with an explanation, because you must let the same men in the audience "hear you out."

Your use of "EVER" (in caps) is indicative of a flee/flight response to a previous painful experience.

Ask the guy who got stomach flu in Germany, if he wants to go back and visit, amd he says "nah, thanks, how about somewhere else"

Ask the guy who was a former Nazi POW, and he says "I will never go to Germany, EVER"

So your responses are indicative of a severe pain incurred by you, at some point in your life.

I recommend you try to resolve your pains and fears, some of which you have no control over, zero, and try to seek inner peace with your demons.

The enemy is not "men." It was your father. He is somewhere more peaceful now.

You should be too.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I did ALL of those things....and have been married over twenty years. So, did you do it yet or do you just preach?

Good for you! I'd like to think I am doing it... but like age 60....(or is it 65) I'll have to wait till I am there...

One thing I did teach my kids was not to be in aviation. That seems like a very socially aware thing for a parent to do, don't you agree?

I don't know...we choose it.

 

[hindsight2020]

I can't hold on any longer.. LOL

One thing I've observed is that women pilots have a difficult time developing relationships with men who are not pilots. I kid you not, every single woman pilot I know is in a relationship, or married to, another pilot; these encompass women I know at all levels of aviation I've been exposed to: CFIs, regionals, and military.

I agree with satpak, the majority of these women define their self-worth solely on the job they perform, which is why they end up with other pilots. It's a matter of social currency really. For a guy who is not interested in flying in general, a woman pilot has really no interesting qualities, as she works in a historically male gender role, asset which only a pilot male would normally appreciate, and therefore it is of little social currency to him [the non-pilot male]. Additionally, said guy can find tons of women with more socially valuable attitudes to him, i.e. the proverbial nurse/teacher who has the inclination and job schedule to make a stable and involved mother, everything else being equal. During college, a lot of the young GOOD looking women (let's face it, women pilots are not know to be of the good looking persuasion by percentage among their work peers, as say nurses by comparison) realize there is a level of social currency to being Mrs. Mommy, and as the posters have suggested, many have taken to a more domestic role after college, perhaps part-time work in their work field of interest..these are attitudes that women pilots resent gratuitously, as shown in this thread as well. All that is not to suggest that a woman pilot is inherently uncapable of making a better mother than any Suzie nurse, but it is a pretty resounding trend that women pilots RESENT their social shortcoming (some quietly, some loudly), particularly when the reason for such shortcoming is something that is so tied to what defines them so profoundly.

Consequently, two-pilot unions is not an easy idea to pitch for raising a family. It is really closer to a rock star type of family dynamic than your normal 9-5. Families need stability, two individuals who constantly have to bust their chops (although they'd likely minimize the a$$pain it is when talking to their non-pilot peers) to make the schedules work to allow them to tend to their children, is certainly an ill-suited proposition. That's reason #2 most women pilots have a love-hate relationship with their identity. They want the cake and eat it too. They COULD make it work if hubby had the flexibility to allow for her being gone. But since we already established that women pilots almost have to end up with male pilots, the resultant work dynamic makes it difficult to make that proposition work.

We went out for dinner with a co-worker whose wife happens to also be a pilot (my g/f is employed in landscape architecture by contrast). You could sense the tension when my g/f asked his wife about children and "how does the schedule work"? (neither them nor us have children at the moment). Said wife is struggling to break into the regional game, and hubby is military, whose career and paycheck have taken precedence. You can tell she's not happy across the table, and I submit it is not a coincidence these two ended up together (see my first paragragh). Likewise, you could see the shoulder-shrugging she had for my g/f when my girl told them if I were to ever be in a position to make six figures and carry the main economic burden of rasing my future family, she wouldn't blink twice before strongly considering resorting to part-time work in her field and being with the kids. I've never told my g/f to give any part of her vocational pursuits to pop kids or whatever, but yet that shows exactly the paradigm these women pilots face. This woman sees no value in my g/f's attitude, and that is because it is resoundingly obvious that my g/f sees her job as a pursuit she enjoys, but something that in the end doesn't define her, whereas subject #2 is somebody who has a death-grip on the "I'm a WO-man PILOT" and yet wrestles at night with why she couldn't hitch an accountant or lawyer instead with another pilot, whose more of a burden to her secret white picket fence desires than somebody she'd find midly intersting to talk to every night at the dinnner table (about the same topic mind you).

Do two pilot families work? I'd say marginally sure. But as a pilot myself, wouldn't be something I was ever interested in pursuing for precisely the above reasons. Don't get me wrong, my PPL CFI was a woman, great lady, but she was in her 40s and single, and went about her trips and schedule as she pleased, and it worked for her, but that's not the paradigm a woman can use for creating a family FWIW.

 

[satpak77]

highsight

excellent post. You appear to read Daniel Goleman and/or Stephen Covey

 

[capt. megadeth]

I recommend you try to resolve your pains and fears, some of which you have no control over, zero, and try to seek inner peace with your demons.

The enemy is not "men." It was your father. He is somewhere more peaceful now.

You should be too.

How do you do that when you feel fine?

 

[satpak77]

How do you do that when you feel fine?

Not unlike Stockholms syndrome, in which the hostage/POW begins to align himself with the hostage taker, someone in your situation does not know any other condition, and therefore for you, "I am fine" is the theme of the day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome


Similar to a guy who has been homeless his whole life. Give him public housing, a roof, and four walls, and a lock on the front door, and life is great.

However he does not know the life of the suburbs, with stainless steel appliances, green yards, etc (you get the idea). So he has no performance measure above and beyond "life is fine" from his vantage point of the public housing. To him, that is a huge improvement over his previous life.

So you indeed feel "fine." However I recommend you seek out that life above and beyond, and try to make peace with your past experiences. I did not live your life, only you did, so I am not about to how to go about it and nickel and dime your gameplan to death.

I will however recommend that you begin the process. There are various books I can recommend that could give you a jump-start on things, which are "sanctioned" by the therapist/psychology crowd.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I find it funny that you guys think it's a WOMAN pilot thing when in fact, it's not. I was a nurse for 8 years and even if that was my career, I would keep working if I had kids. Unfortunately in this career, you cannot just quit, come back 10 years later and pick up where you left off. You guys act like it's so easy. "Oh, just quit". If it was that easy and I could take off for 5-10 years, accrue longevity, keep my seniority and go back later, I would. Think about yourselves....would it be that easy for you to just quit forever? You don't have to worry about it because you can just have your wife do that. If it was you that needed to quit, would it be that easy for you?

 

[capt. megadeth]

So you indeed feel "fine." However I recommend you seek out that life above and beyond, and try to make peace with your past experiences. I did not live your life, only you did, so I am not about to how to go about it and nickel and dime your gameplan to death.
.

Thanks for the advice, but I think you are thinking a little deep for me. Sure it hurts that I grew up without a father but I am very, very happy in my life. There is nothing I want for and I really don't think I need to read into it and get myself thinking I need help for something I really don't think about but thanks for the advice.

 

[satpak77]

Thanks for the advice, but I think you are thinking a little deep for me. Sure it hurts that I grew up without a father but I am very, very happy in my life. There is nothing I want for and I really don't think I need to read into it and get myself thinking I need help for something I really don't think about but thanks for the advice.

Hey, great. Just remember that CRM was born out of rigid dominating Captains who barked orders and ruled with an iron fist. If they said they were configured for approach, then they were by God.

Now, CRM teaches that everyone helps each other and watches each others actions.

You may not "need to read into it" by your definition, but, lets ask, "but maybe I do." Or "hmm, lets took a look at this." I know I am not the first person on the entire planet to recommend you do the things in my posts. Others have said it to you. Maybe not today, but over the course of life, it has been recommended.

The world will not stop spinning now will the sun be extinguished if you try something revolutionary called self reflection.

 

[satpak77]

I find it funny that you guys think it's a WOMAN pilot thing when in fact, it's not. I was a nurse for 8 years and even if that was my career, I would keep working if I had kids. Unfortunately in this career, you cannot just quit, come back 10 years later and pick up where you left off. You guys act like it's so easy. "Oh, just quit". If it was that easy and I could take off for 5-10 years, accrue longevity, keep my seniority and go back later, I would. Think about yourselves....would it be that easy for you to just quit forever? You don't have to worry about it because you can just have your wife do that. If it was you that needed to quit, would it be that easy for you?

It appears your believe that this thread is about you. It is not. It is about the kids.

Observe the original post asked "Does it work?" Well, it may work for the two airline parents. But it may fail for the kids.

You also appear to associate the word "wife" with "second class citizen", as in "let the wife do that".

It is difficult for you to relate because you are

1) Not a mother
2) Not a wife
3) Probably Don't want to be "someones wife." Or if you do, you will answer "He is my husband" and will unlikely answer "I am his wife"

I think we have explored a lot of issues on this thread, and no one is being disrespectful. I could be 100% wrong in my observations, but I think I am probably 70-80% correct on everything.

(And I have never met you)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I find it funny that you guys think it's a WOMAN pilot thing when in fact, it's not. I was a nurse for 8 years and even if that was my career, I would keep working if I had kids. Unfortunately in this career, you cannot just quit, come back 10 years later and pick up where you left off. You guys act like it's so easy. "Oh, just quit". If it was that easy and I could take off for 5-10 years, accrue longevity, keep my seniority and go back later, I would. Think about yourselves....would it be that easy for you to just quit forever? You don't have to worry about it because you can just have your wife do that. If it was you that needed to quit, would it be that easy for you?

We don't act like its easy..... we've just searched out spouses who are willing to do the "dirty work." The homemaking and the child raising.... Although I did pick and drop off at the schoolbus stop, went grocery shopping and went to the dry cleaners and fabric store today. Then I painting the outside of the house and after dinner washed dishes.... but enough about me...!!

The tough nut to crack is to find the husband who wants to stay at home.... ergo the female pilot paradox.... Don't get me wrong. I enjoy female pilots. They fly well and bring a refreshing change to the immature testasterone that oozes the crewroom. I enjoyed meeting Jerry Mock, a true aviatrix....

Life is about choices and sacrifices. You can have fun along the way!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Similar to a guy who has been homeless his whole life. Give him public housing, a roof, and four walls, and a lock on the front door, and life is great.

However he does not know the life of the suburbs, with stainless steel appliances, green yards, etc (you get the idea). So he has no performance measure above and beyond "life is fine" from his vantage point of the public housing. To him, that is a huge improvement over his previous life.

Viktor Frankl, in his book "the meaning of life" discussed this "realitivity of cicumstance." A train of Jews headed to a concentration camp... but which camp? The hard labor or the extermination camp... As the trained crossed the switch it veered towards and went to the hard labor camp. Incarcerated, sick and emaceated Jews on a Nazi train jumping and dancing for joy.....life is good!

 

[capt. megadeth]

I know I am not the first person on the entire planet to recommend you do the things in my posts. Others have said it to you. Maybe not today, but over the course of life, it has been recommended.

Actually you are but there is nothing wrong with that. I don't usually talk to people about it (except my honey) because I don't think about it often.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Rez and satpak.....

I have a question for you. Let's say your wife told you one day that she wanted to go back to work and let's just say she could start off making exactly what you are making right now. She said that she would really want you to quit your job and stay home with the kids and she would be the breadwinner. What would you say/do? Be honest please.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez and satpak.....

I have a question for you. Let's say your wife told you one day that she wanted to go back to work and let's just say she could start off making exactly what you are making right now. She said that she would really want you to quit your job and stay home with the kids and she would be the breadwinner. What would you say/do? Be honest please.

Beat her.


JUST KIDDING!!!! C'mon ...you women are so sensitive...it was a JOKE!

That is allot of conditional IFs....

What if she came home and said I found a better man. Or she said, I want to BE a man..... What will I do if she dies?

Our lives aren't controlled and orchestrated as much as we want them to be.... The exciting, mysterious, and somewhat scarey part of marriage is people grow and change over the years... Who one marries today is a different person in ten years.

Having a pilots schedule we try and create a stable simple lifestyle for our family. If we push it too much we will find ourselves too committed (two airline careers?) and no easy way out. Once a family enjoys descretionary income it is hard to give it up. Who would want to?

There are too many curve balls that life throws at us. Keeping it simple makes it easier to handle the things we can't control.

But you want an answer...

To keep the family together I'd quit flying. Easier said than done...especially hypothetically. I'd be better off if she wanted a pitot tube instead....

 

[satpak77]

Rez and satpak.....

I have a question for you. Let's say your wife told you one day that she wanted to go back to work and let's just say she could start off making exactly what you are making right now. She said that she would really want you to quit your job and stay home with the kids and she would be the breadwinner. What would you say/do? Be honest please.

Well, based on my marriage, if my wife could earn what I earn, and I could stay home, I would.

Period, end of story. But I can't breast feed, so we have a problem there.

Ultimately "what is best for the family" must be asked tho, not for me, or for her.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Fair enough. Thanks.

 

[highsky]

For those of you blessed with being raised in Beaver Cleaver households, and those of you raising families in the optimal family situations where mom and dad and everyone is happy and stable, CONGRATULATIONS; Gee, if we could only be like you...

For the rest of us, 80%, who have grown up in, and continue to be involved in, unstable relationships, we need to look at reality.

My mom had a choice: Put up with a two-timing husband for the rest of her life, or go to law school to become a lawyer so that she didn't have to raise her kids in a double-wide on a teacher's salary.

Could she have made it work on a teacher's salary? Sure. And I sure as hell wouldn't be a pilot today. Have you checked the cost of pilot training lately?

Any smart woman (and man) looking at the ODDS can quickly realize that it makes most sense for the woman to work. For the KIDS sake AND both SPOUSES sake. There is nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with the woman staying home to take care of the kids, for those lucky 20% of you who are lucky enough to have such a stable situation. BUT, if you are one of those, it's mighty pious of you to cast shame on the rest of us. SO, shut the fukc up! Let the rest of us make due, with the circumstances that have befallen us, IN PEACE and support.