Two people in Aviation with Kids. Does it work?

[HA25]

about Bob Stumpf..

http://www.newtotalitarians.com/TheBobStumpfAffair.html

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

FMS Speed-

I am talking about Air Line flying... not combat. When it comes to two fighter pilots battling for air supremacy, I don't want a 120lb girl ulling 7g's against a 220lbs adeversary.

I am talking about Air Line flying...where after the interview, we are all equal and we only compete within ourselves and the standards. There is no competition in Air Line flying.

Again, if an male can handle an airbus sidestick better than a female...let's have some reference..

 

[HA25]

FMS Speed-

Again, if an male can handle an airbus sidestick better than a female...let's have some reference..

Not all planes are fbw.. I think the MD-11, DC-8, 747 family, 737's and a few others are strength dependant.. but you've sucked me back into this thread! I am really going now!

 

[FlyUnited]

Is that why we see so many physically fit 747 pilots? Poor guys and gals have been in there working out for the last 15 hours. :smash:

Can't take the heat anymore FMS? I hear they are hiring flight attendants now. That's one way you can see the inside of a 747. Let me know, I'll get you an apron.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not all planes are fbw.. I think the MD-11, DC-8, 747 family, 737's and a few others are strength dependant.. but you've sucked me back into this thread! I am really going now!

sounds good! Let's have those accident reports that shows reduced muscle strength contributed or caused or did not prevent an accident. One thing that I think is one your side is I doubt the NTSB will state "not strong enough due to female body" rather you'll just get "failure to control".

But instead...how about...

If the above family of a/c are strength dependent, what are the values? Units of torque? Units of work/force? Has the a/c manf. stated the minimum strength required to operate this jet is ___. Maybe checkrides should start at the gym.

 

[capt. megadeth]

He's applying at VA

Skybus....VA.....same $hitholes...different paintjobs.

I can't believe this neanderthal has hijacked this thread to the point of talking about men fly better airplanes than women.....what a knucklehead! FMS, you should go to confession right now and ask for forgiveness.....

 

[John Pennekamp]

has hijacked this thread to the point of talking about men fly better airplanes than women.....what a knucklehead! FMS, you should go to confession right now and ask for forgiveness.....

In my experience, both as an airline pilot and a flight instructor, women in the cockpit are generally one extreme or the other. If you rate a pilot based on flying skill, decision making, and communication, they're either the best pilot you've ever seen, or the worst ever. Since the really bad ones tend to weed themselves out by the time you get to the airline level, you see few really bad ones.

Men on the other hand tend to be always mediocre. You see some good ones and some not so good ones, but it's rare to see an extreme.

I think this in part is because women are better at multitasking and communicating than men. And since the evolutionary traits of sexual dimorphism are never absolute, you often find women with skills men traditionally excel at, as well as men with skills women traditionally excel at. A woman who possesses the traditionally male talent of mechanical aptitude, coupled with her other natural talents has everything a pilot needs to be successful.

Men on the other hand tend to have excellent mechanical ability, but lack multitasking and communication skills. This is what makes them mediocre overall, with the exception, of course, of the rare male who has the gift of communication and multitasking. Oh and EMPATHY (are you listening FMS-SPEED and REZ)?

All of you men advising these women on how to balance their careers and family lives are laughable, and demonstrate a clear lack of it. You are defining the "traditional" roles of men and women as though sexual dimorphism is absolute. It is not.

This is a constant struggle for women (the balance of career vs. family) because they are defined much more by their traditional role in society than men are. So when a woman finds herself with mechanical skill and works her way into a male profession, she's belittled, ridiculed, and told she's only there to fill a quota. Then, when she one day gets pregnant, she's often pushed to the fringe and made to feel like a bad person for not wanting to give the career up because of something happening to her that she can't control, may not have planned for, may not even like, and is irreversible. No man can appreciate that because there is nothing we face that even comes close.

Also, if a man decides to quit work and raise the kids it's a choice. Men can leave the situation. Women cannot because they are physically and emotionally bound. When it comes to pregnancy, childbirth, and child raising, the women are stuck with the task whether they like it or not, because they are the ones with it inside of them, and dependent on them. They also have a bond with the child that no man can ever understand, which keeps them from leaving it after its born. So like it or not, she often finds herself sacrificing her career for her family.

So try to show a little empathy to women like Megadeth, and just listen to them, rather than offer unsolicited advice. That's another difference between men and women that most men don't handle well. Also one that breeds resentment between the sexes... as seen in this thread.

 

[John Pennekamp]

WHY MEN ARE HAPPIER

Your last name stays put.
The garage is all yours.
Wedding plans take care of themselves.
Chocolate is just another snack.
You can be President.
You can never be pregnant.(PLUS)
You can wear a white T-shirt to a water park.
You can wear NO shirt to a water park.
Car mechanics tell you the truth.
The world is your urinal.
You never have to drive to another gas station restroom because this
one is just too icky.
You don't have to stop and think of which way to turn a nut on a bolt.
Same work, more pay.
Wrinkles add character.
Wedding dress $5000 …… Tux rental $100.
People never stare at your chest when you're talking to them.
The occasional well-rendered belch is practically expected.
New shoes don't cut, blister, or mangle your feet.
One mood all the time.
Phone conversations are over in 30 seconds flat.
You know stuff about tanks.
A five-day vacation requires only one suitcase.
You can open all your own jars.
You get extra credit for the slightest act of thoughtfulness.
If someone forgets to invite you, he or she can still be your friend.
Your underwear is $8.95 for a three-pack.
Three pairs of shoes are more than enough.
You almost never have strap problems in public.
You are unable to see wrinkles in your clothes.
Everything on your face stays its original color.
The same hairstyle lasts for years, maybe decades.
You only have to shave your face and neck.
You can play with toys all your life.
Your belly usually hides your big hips.
One wallet and one pair of shoes -- one color for all seasons.
You can wear shorts no matter how your legs look.
You can "do" your nails with a pocket knife.

LOL, that's so true FlyUnited. We have it easy.

Let's start a list of things you have better. There aren't as many.

You can go to a bar and not take any money.
Beer is beer, regardless of brand.
You rarely have to open a door yourself (not so much anymore, though).
You never need to worry about getting into a bar fight.
You always look good (to us) no matter what you wear.
You never feel self conscious when walking into Michaels or Linens-N-Things.
You have a bond with the kids we'll never understand.
You never have to worry about being stranded if your car breaks down.
It's perfectly acceptable for you to be a full time parent, if you so choose.
You can be entertained for hours a day by soap operas.
You know stuff about relationships.
You know stuff about decorating.
Bodily fluids don't gross you out.
Shopping isn't a chore.
Crying can get you out of a traffic ticket.
You can sew your own clothes.
You can think about more than one thing at a time.
Your skin never gets rough.
It's perfectly acceptable to use skin lotion.
You don't have hair growing in strange places (back, butt, nose, ears).
You only have to shave a few times a week (or for special occasions).

Anything I left out?

 

[capt. megadeth]

John...you got the big picture man!

Although, I can't sew my own clothes.
If my car broke down, I'd be worried about getting murdered by someone who stopped (I watch a lot of those A&E American Justice and Cold Case Files shows).
I'm not that great at decorating.
I never had to cry to get out of a ticket....I just told the cop I'm an ER nurse and it worked like a charm every time.....tee heee
I also always took money to the bar because I'd rather pay $5 for my own drink than have some schmuck buy me one and then I would feel obligated to talk to him. Not worth the hassle.

 

[John Pennekamp]

John...you got the big picture man!

Although, I can't sew my own clothes.
If my car broke down, I'd be worried about getting murdered by someone who stopped (I watch a lot of those A&E American Justice and Cold Case Files shows).
I'm not that great at decorating.
I never had to cry to get out of a ticket....I just told the cop I'm an ER nurse and it worked like a charm every time.....tee heee
I also always took money to the bar because I'd rather pay $5 for my own drink than have some schmuck buy me one and then I would feel obligated to talk to him. Not worth the hassle.

Well clearly, you're not a Southern Belle, like my wive

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Oh and EMPATHY (are you listening FMS-SPEED and REZ)?

Here we go again. I guess I am the only that cares for children on this board. Or the only one that seems to have empathy for children. Show me I am wrong.

JP- if you read my threads, my posts are children orientated and centered. Parents make a choice.

All of you men advising these women on how to balance their careers and family lives are laughable, and demonstrate a clear lack of it. You are defining the "traditional" roles of men and women as though sexual dimorphism is absolute. It is not.

By no means I am not. I support women in professional environments. Everyone brings something to the table. Women bring a "fresh air" to the crewroom and work place.

No one seems to be speaking up for children. Cause dysfunctional families and/or divorce is good for kids. Kids standing in line at school to medicate and killing spree's... Of course that is secondary to a parents (women’s) right to have a career and prove her self worth in society.

Counselor: I have concerns about your son in school.
Parent: is this going to take long... I have a meeting at work.

The fact is two parents working is less time for parenting.... Mom should raise an infant then Dad can take over as a stay at home parent. Whatever. You can arguer it any way you like... but day care is simply a physically safe environment. You drop them off safe and pick them up safe. Sure you can pay for "educated" day care... but what can day care do that a parent can't. And the big question.... why put your kids in day care... I know, I know... "Self worth", "can't make it on one income"... blah, blah, blah... (Which of course are all society scripting and conditioning... more below..)

Now... let's talk about love for a child. With a parent vs. day care. Where is a child going to get love? Day care? Maybe you've found a happy medium with the grandparents.

This is a constant struggle for women (the balance of career vs. family) because they are defined much more by their traditional role in society than men are.

AND!!

Society is made of men and women. And if women is confident enough in her life choices, who cares what society thinks....

All you are doing is whining that "women are shackling" themselves to the judgment of society. That they are simply a product of societies programming, conditioning and scripting... That they have no choice...

Women have more choice than ever.

So when a woman finds herself with mechanical skill and works her way into a male profession, she's belittled, ridiculed, and told she's only there to fill a quota.

See my reply above.

Maybe if our society had laws that supported career women that have kids.. that give them time off and job security. But no, we don't want to talk about staffing. We don't want to mess with the labor machine.

Would American women reject European style laws that allow for REAL time off and their job to return to...? Why is it we were able to have a productive economy 60 years ago with domesticated women, but today, we can't give mothers 12 lousy months off to love and care for an infant?

Why do Euro countries allow women to be at home with child for a year? Could it be that a mother with child the first year is a good thing? The right thing??

Then, when she one day gets pregnant, she's often pushed to the fringe and made to feel like a bad person for not wanting to give the career up because of something happening to her that she can't control, may not have planned for, may not even like, and is irreversible.

You have got to be kidding me! JP.. stop TIVO-ing Oprah and Lifetime network.

You make it sound like women have NO CHOICE in getting pregnant... like the ovary fairy came by one night.

Reference the article I posted... Women have more choice than 60 years ago...and they are still perplexed!! No one has quoted those articles... all you got is a feel good email...

Men did not create vaginas, uterus', breasts and oxytocin. The fact is you can't blame nature so you blame men.

Women have choice! If they choose to be guilt ridden by a BS society, then they should look in the mirror...

No man can appreciate that because there is nothing we face that even comes close.

Why have feminist organizations, like NOW, not gone for true equality? I don't see NOW, trying to get women included in Selective Service!

Also, if a man decides to quit work and raise the kids it's a choice.

You are pussie whipped. Look at it from a companies perspective, in terms of the corporate structure. A big project in on going and the they are about to close the deal. The project manager, a woman, says. Sorry just got pregnant, out on maternity leave. see ya... I am not saying this is right or wrong, just a reality.

Men can leave the situation. Women cannot because they are physically and emotionally bound.

AND!!

What is your problem. Maybe you want your kids made in China and delivered. You could order them on amazon.com. maybe you want rush delivery, before you change your mind.

Why is it all of a sudden the methodology of how human beings reproduce is inconvenient? What is more important than the gift of life? And if it is inconvenient, what are you going to do about it? Should seven eleven sell babies? You pick up some milk, bread and a baby on the way home...

When it comes to pregnancy, childbirth, and child raising, the women are stuck with the task whether they like it or not, because they are the ones with it inside of them, and dependent on them.

Gee John... smart you are... have you considered a doctorate?

And this bad? How? This has been a problem for what? 3000 years or 60 years?

I am sorry that children are an incontinence to you.

They also have a bond with the child that no man can ever understand, which keeps them from leaving it after its born. So like it or not, she often finds herself sacrificing her career for her family.

Yeah, cause women are lying in their death bed saying... "you know, I really wish I put my kids in day care more and worked an extra ten hours a week."

So try to show a little empathy to women like Megadeth, and just listen to them, rather than offer unsolicited advice.

How about showing some empathy to children... Parents choose to have children, but children don't choose to be born or how their parents manage their lives and their kids lives.

That's another difference between men and women that most men don't handle well. Also one that breeds resentment between the sexes... as seen in this thread.

And that is something that career minded women don't handle well empathy for children. Our society has basically guilt-tripped parents in to putting our economy ahead of our kids. But don't worry, with that double income, buy yourself a nice SUV and flat screen TV. Ignorance is bliss. Why do I keep thinking of the Matrix part one.

In our society we value, competition, work, money, status, materialism and consumption. Maslow's hierarchy of needs clearly shows parents will fulfill their needs before others...so the babies get the short end of the stick. The problem is we define wants as needs.

Your whole argument is based on the conditioning and scripting of our society. Have you tried objective thinking and free will?

Don't make me out to be an oppressor of women, when women have more choice than ever... and our kids are struggling more than ever.

 

[capt. megadeth]

^^^^

This one just can't get it through his thick skull that you cannot just drop an airline career and pick it up where you left off in 10 years.

 

[capt. megadeth]

AAAANNNNDDD.....

He loves to comment about medicated and unloved kids yet ignores it when I ask him if he thinks that only kids of 2 income households are on meds.

Just let the thread die already Rez......

WE ARE NOT GOING TO AGREE WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!

GET IT? GOT IT????

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

^^^^

This one just can't get it through his thick skull that you cannot just drop an airline career and pick it up where you left off in 10 years.

Bingo!

Live with in reality! What do you do when an engine fails! Do you curse the engine and pout that life isn't fair?

And??? What is the point? I think you should be able to return after a long maternity leave.... but you can't... So lets deal with reality....

And its someone's fault? Society? Who? Men?

It is just the way it is.... where are the limitations? What is the question over on the 'US Navy message board'? Two parents on 6 month sea crusies with kids... does it work?

Who gets to speak for the kids? As we have grown from one income to two incomes 'needed', who speaks for the kids?

It is easy to do whatever you want when it comes to kids, because they don't know better and they really aren't going to question much. IOW it's called taking advantage of unconditional love.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

AAAANNNNDDD.....

He loves to comment about medicated and unloved kids yet ignores it when I ask him if he thinks that only kids of 2 income households are on meds.

Just let the thread die already Rez......

WE ARE NOT GOING TO AGREE WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!

GET IT? GOT IT????

http://www.thejournalnews.com/rtc/27part6.htm


Is there a connection between two incomes, the feminsit movement, high dovorce rate and kids on meds?

Perhaps we should not obkectively ask the questions we might not want to know the answers to....


Sorry, mega... all I've gotten is "I want to have my cake and eat it too..." Why are women still unhappy after the last 50 years when they have more choice?

 

[FlyUnited]

Because God never improved the quality of men.

 

[HA25]

WE ARE NOT GOING TO AGREE WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!

GET IT? GOT IT????

Once again, Mega buries her head in the sand to the inconvenient science and facts and would rather live by the laws of feminist political correctness; the fashionable thing to do today I suppose.

Just make sure to invest in a good breast pump as the APP recommends an infant nurse well into their first year.

Hopefully you'll never be one of those families affected by the strain and conflict of two careers and having kids, but that wouldn't be because you're the norm, it would be because you're lucky (anecdotal). Then your husband might just be a stay at home dad too..

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because God never improved the quality of men.

Kinda makes you wish there was a third or no gender choice.... then life would be perfect

Men....can't live with them and you can't kill them...

 

[John Pennekamp]

Here we go again. I guess I am the only that cares for children on this board. Or the only one that seems to have empathy for children. Show me I am wrong.

JP- if you read my threads, my posts are children orientated and centered. Parents make a choice.




By no means I am not. I support women in professional environments. Everyone brings something to the table. Women bring a "fresh air" to the crewroom and work place.

No one seems to be speaking up for children. Cause dysfunctional families and/or divorce is good for kids. Kids standing in line at school to medicate and killing spree's... Of course that is secondary to a parents (women’s) right to have a career and prove her self worth in society.

Counselor: I have concerns about your son in school.
Parent: is this going to take long... I have a meeting at work.

The fact is two parents working is less time for parenting.... Mom should raise an infant then Dad can take over as a stay at home parent. Whatever. You can arguer it any way you like... but day care is simply a physically safe environment. You drop them off safe and pick them up safe. Sure you can pay for "educated" day care... but what can day care do that a parent can't. And the big question.... why put your kids in day care... I know, I know... "Self worth", "can't make it on one income"... blah, blah, blah... (Which of course are all society scripting and conditioning... more below..)

Now... let's talk about love for a child. With a parent vs. day care. Where is a child going to get love? Day care? Maybe you've found a happy medium with the grandparents.



AND!!

Society is made of men and women. And if women is confident enough in her life choices, who cares what society thinks....

All you are doing is whining that "women are shackling" themselves to the judgment of society. That they are simply a product of societies programming, conditioning and scripting... That they have no choice...

Women have more choice than ever.







See my reply above.

Maybe if our society had laws that supported career women that have kids.. that give them time off and job security. But no, we don't want to talk about staffing. We don't want to mess with the labor machine.

Would American women reject European style laws that allow for REAL time off and their job to return to...? Why is it we were able to have a productive economy 60 years ago with domesticated women, but today, we can't give mothers 12 lousy months off to love and care for an infant?

Why do Euro countries allow women to be at home with child for a year? Could it be that a mother with child the first year is a good thing? The right thing??




You have got to be kidding me! JP.. stop TIVO-ing Oprah and Lifetime network.

You make it sound like women have NO CHOICE in getting pregnant... like the ovary fairy came by one night.

Reference the article I posted... Women have more choice than 60 years ago...and they are still perplexed!! No one has quoted those articles... all you got is a feel good email...

Men did not create vaginas, uterus', breasts and oxytocin. The fact is you can't blame nature so you blame men.

Women have choice! If they choose to be guilt ridden by a BS society, then they should look in the mirror...




Why have feminist organizations, like NOW, not gone for true equality? I don't see NOW, trying to get women included in Selective Service!



You are pussie whipped. Look at it from a companies perspective, in terms of the corporate structure. A big project in on going and the they are about to close the deal. The project manager, a woman, says. Sorry just got pregnant, out on maternity leave. see ya... I am not saying this is right or wrong, just a reality.



AND!!

What is your problem. Maybe you want your kids made in China and delivered. You could order them on amazon.com. maybe you want rush delivery, before you change your mind.

Why is it all of a sudden the methodology of how human beings reproduce is inconvenient? What is more important than the gift of life? And if it is inconvenient, what are you going to do about it? Should seven eleven sell babies? You pick up some milk, bread and a baby on the way home...



Gee John... smart you are... have you considered a doctorate?

And this bad? How? This has been a problem for what? 3000 years or 60 years?

I am sorry that children are an incontinence to you.




Yeah, cause women are lying in their death bed saying... "you know, I really wish I put my kids in day care more and worked an extra ten hours a week."



How about showing some empathy to children... Parents choose to have children, but children don't choose to be born or how their parents manage their lives and their kids lives.




And that is something that career minded women don't handle well empathy for children. Our society has basically guilt-tripped parents in to putting our economy ahead of our kids. But don't worry, with that double income, buy yourself a nice SUV and flat screen TV. Ignorance is bliss. Why do I keep thinking of the Matrix part one.

In our society we value, competition, work, money, status, materialism and consumption. Maslow's hierarchy of needs clearly shows parents will fulfill their needs before others...so the babies get the short end of the stick. The problem is we define wants as needs.

Your whole argument is based on the conditioning and scripting of our society. Have you tried objective thinking and free will?

Don't make me out to be an oppressor of women, when women have more choice than ever... and our kids are struggling more than ever.

Rez, there's no way to debate this issue with you because you continue to base your argument on stereotypes and personal opinion. While I did offer you some opinion, I gave you several scientific facts, which you dismissed or even made fun of me for. Your debating skills suck, you are a stereotypical chauvinist prick, and I'm done with you. You can't win this one. Nobody can.

C-ya.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, there's no way to debate this issue with you because you continue to base your argument on stereotypes and personal opinion. While I did offer you some opinion, I gave you several scientific facts, which you dismissed or even made fun of me for. Your debating skills suck, you are a stereotypical chauvinist prick, and I'm done with you. You can't win this one. Nobody can.

C-ya.

Wow... John... that is deep.... I mean its really thought provoking... I didn't realize how wrong I was until you called me names.

Sterotypes? What was the NYT and USAToday article that was posted? Still no reply to that...

All I really got out of your arguement was that I have no empathy for women who choose to load themselves up with career and kids. Women that have more choice than ever that fail to choose. Or they choose too much and wonder why its so tough.

I re-read your post and all I read was nothing but a reflection of todays society, its justifications and peer pressure to belong to the group. I see no objectivity. No paragraph by paragrpah quotes as I have done. No debate. And of course you claim I don't debate which is a classic and distracting tactic, but most effective if you have no sound platform.

And mega... she's has declared that she is done with this thread multiple times, told others to just drop it, let it die, only to put in her "final word" and re-engage on her terms.

Plenty of posters have offered coherant debate on the issue and all we get back from you, Flyual and mega is superficial society acceptance combined with fustration, name calling and "I am packing up my marbles and going home." Your ethos is based on flavor of the month mantra's, feel good email snipets and go with the flow, path of least resistence reasoning.


The orginal thread title: Two parents in avaition with kids does it work? Work for whom? The parents? Sure of course it "works"...for the parents.

We all want the reward of having kids but we don't want to take responsibility for them.

And the other side of the debate is what about the kids? Who speaks up for the kids... but you don't want to talk about that... because everyone knows that one parent at home and one parent working (doesn't matter who, mom or dad who stays at home) is best for kids.

And the sad part of it is we don't do what is best for our kids because we WANT the double income or we WANT the social validation. It is just more of the 'me me me' generation.


Why the big deal? Why the rant? cause there are millions of kids in OUR country.... the richest and best country in the world that are desperate for love and acceptance. All while the same time, there are 100's of millions of kids around the world starving, orphaned, abused, mulilated and killed. We have a real opportunity to provide for our kids like never before and we piss it all away just so we can have a house 3x the size we don't need or so women can say "I am female CEO... hear me roar!!"