TWA v. ALPA Suit Going To Trial

[St. Nic]

ALPA is a disease- they have caused harm to so many pilot groups= just look at mine as a great example

 

[Dan Roman]

ALPA is a disease- they have caused harm to so many pilot groups= just look at mine as a great example

You obviously are very obsessed and angry over what happened at USAir (Everyone agreed to accept an arbitrated list and when it came out, east said we changed our mind), but a very good question was asked of you and you never answered. If TWA and USAir had merged in the 80's, would you be fighting just as hard for DOH when USAir had 8 year Captains and TWA had 10 year F/E's?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You're free to argue the TWA purchase was ill-advised but at the time there were logical reasons why AA did it. 9/11 changed that and I'm guessing you didn't predict 9/11. Therefore, you could not have anticipated that the AA would shrink drastically so shortly after the TWA purchase. It's very disingenuous for you to suggest you knew as much..

You'll "explain" from what view, someone who hadn't dealt with AMR? You dealt with Icahn, same scum, different beasts.

The TWA system was going to get whacked. the economy was already in the sheeter with crappy loads and yields the summer of 2001.

The TWA system had a significcant amount of flying that AA detested. Riyadh, are you kidding? STL to Europe, with DFW and ORD Europe flights an hour away, that flying was going away. Same goes for STL- Hawaii, gone to because of ORD/DFW. The Caribbean SJU "Hub". That was just some lunch money pilfered from the AA's Caribbean "lake". That flying was gone except for PUJ. The STL short haul flying I covered in my previous post was also gone. Mainline jets from the STL Hub to SGF/DSM/MLI/FAR/MKE/OMA? We AA pilots lost that flying top Eagle 8 years before. It sucks, but did you guys really think the AA pilots should give you a relative seniority merge based on 2001 baseline to places like those?

The APA deal protected the STL TWA guys based on an educated guess as to what AMR would do with TWA. If they had kept the flying APa guessed they would, upgrades due to the senior TWA guys retiring would have let protected TWA FO's upgrade earlier than the AA guys based on DOH. It's too bad that AA cut STL and the TWA system even more than APA thought they would.

So TWA was victim to poor management, a poor market, TWA pilot union decisions and the economic downturn exacerbated by 9/11......

But its airline pilots still employed (unions) fault?

 

[FLYLOW22]

So TWA was victim to poor management, a poor market, and the economic downturn exacerbated by 9/11......

But its airline pilots still employed (unions) fault?

I wasn't aware that most of the pilots, all of the flight attendants and virtually every other employee that was former TWA actually were offered new jobs.

Just a big furlough.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I wasn't aware that most of the pilots, all of the flight attendants and virtually every other employee that was former TWA actually were offered new jobs.

Just a big furlough.

Why would new jobs be offered by poor management, in a poor market during an economic downturn?

 

[Neubyfly]

So TWA was victim to poor management, a poor market, TWA pilot union decisions and the economic downturn exacerbated by 9/11......

But its airline pilots still employed (unions) fault?

Ummmm I'm pretty sure I'm not employed by AA and havn't been for 8 years. And I'm over 300 from recall.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

You obviously are very obsessed and angry over what happened at USAir (Everyone agreed to accept an arbitrated list and when it came out, east said we changed our mind), but a very good question was asked of you and you never answered. If TWA and USAir had merged in the 80's, would you be fighting just as hard for DOH when USAir had 8 year Captains and TWA had 10 year F/E's?

Yes, but look at what the new union at Airways has done for them thus far....I mean those 737 captains are almost making as much as a 5th year swa f/o:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[TWA Dude]

The TWA system was going to get whacked. the economy was already in the sheeter with crappy loads and yields the summer of 2001.

You're offering your opinion. I didn't say anything about what might have happened. I only said AA made their decision to buy TWA based on conditions at that time. Then those conditions changed and your 20/20 hindsight is irrelevant.

The APA deal protected the STL TWA guys based on an educated guess as to what AMR would do with TWA.

No, the APA protected its own and gave the TWAers the minimum they thought they could get away with. At least have the guts to admit it.

 

[TWA Dude]

YOU'RE the one that would like to take AA pilots' jobs that you feel somehow "entitled" to even though you took a job with TWA, a long-sick and failed airline.

All I want is for an arbitrator to decide, come what may. Notice the difference between our integration methodologies? Me: neutral arbitrator. You: you get to decide and then tell me how fair you think it is. Kind of hard to justify your point of view. Just like the Easties.

I never even considered TWA when airline job shopping because it was a chronically sick company.

When you make a statement like this I know when I've won the argument. The AA pilots think they TWA pilots were stupid and therefore deserve less. Forget about fairness, we just don't deserve anything better. I know not all AA pilots are like you but you bring shame upon this profession.

And as far as self-righteous goes, well . . . read your own posts.

Okay, I will.

I did. Didn't see any self-righteousness.

 

[johnnyb]

If TWA and USAir had merged in the 80's, would you be fighting just as hard for DOH when USAir had 8 year Captains and TWA had 10 year F/E's?

If they wanted to fly a Bac-111 5 legs a day out of Erie and Allentown in exchange for a widebody international job I'd say would've been fine all around.

 

[Draginass]

All I want is for an arbitrator to decide, come what may. Notice the difference between our integration methodologies? Me: neutral arbitrator. You: you get to decide and then tell me how fair you think it is.

I suppose when you are negotiating from a position of extreme weakness and zero leverage bring NOTHING of lasting value to the table, sure you would go with an arbitration. But, why would AA pilots taking a chance on an arbitration when they knew that TWA was a bad bad deal and it would almost certainly be dismantled into oblivion. After the demise of any "value" TWA supposidly brought to AA, then shutdown, I'm sure you'd be real happy right now to be flying AA metal on AA routes in place of real-hire AA pilots. We knew how this was going to end and if I knew that TWA's value was going to be in the negatives, I would have pushed to staple ALL TWA pilots, just like the flight attendants did successfully. There's a bunch of real-hire AA pilots on the street right now while a bunch of ex-TWA captains sit in cushy protected bid positions in STL.

TWA added nothing to AA, except strife and money down the rat hole.

 

[GuppyWN]

TWA was a much "cooler" airline than AMR. TWA guys need to sue for seniority!

AMR is a crappy, taxi slow, get in the damn way, airline.

Gup

 

[C-150ETOPS]

You're offering your opinion. I didn't say anything about what might have happened. I only said AA made their decision to buy TWA based on conditions at that time. Then those conditions changed and your 20/20 hindsight is irrelevant.No, the APA protected its own and gave the TWAers the minimum they thought they could get away with. At least have the guts to admit it.

TWA Dude,

I'm offering an "opinion"?

Let's start over. First, an "opinion" is something based on something that hasn't happened before. We could go on for days with "opinions" of posters on what would happen with a 3 way merge of AA, BA and Iberia. You, I, and every other poster would be talking out of our arses for 28 pages on the ramifications of the actions of an international conglamerate. That is what an "opinion" is.

A decison based on facts, probabilities and general behavior predicted on past behavior is what TWA and AA pilots faced when the buyout happened.

What I posted extensively regarding TWA's operation in 2001 is a matter of fact. Much of the route system directly conflicted with the previous route decisons at AMR, and there was zero evidence that AMR was going to change it's behavior, that's fact not "opinion".

Now TWA Dude, If what I stated earlier is just an "opinion" of my predictions in 2001 of what was going to happen with TWA, please respectfully explain what your vision of what parts of the TWA operation would have been kept after 2001.

Would AMR have kept the short haul cities spoking out from STL on mainline B717's and MD-80's? What shred of evidence do you have that would have you think that AMR would somehow change their past behavior of eliminating this type of flying like they did with AirCal and Reno Air? Why exactly would a AA pilot think about merging these Captain jobs into the AA Captain jobs list when they knew this flying was gone in the future?.

What about the Cairo and Riyadh flying? Do you honestly think APA should have credited those jobs also? There was also discussion of "unused route authority". While I truly wished AA would have operated it like a great airline that TWA was, most of the cities went to Open Skies and weren't worth more than a "Go Daddy" web address.

The Caribbean "hub" is something I also would give squat for credit. I covered that in an earlier post.

Nothing has changed of my opinions from 2001 of what AMR had planned for TWA. Knowing their past behavior, the fate of TWA was not good. unfortunately, it went even worse than I imagined. You keep pushing an Arbitrator. Believe it or not, I'm all for it. Let's do it based on todays result. The ultimate test on whether TWA helped or hurt AA is what is left on the TWA system today. No B.S. about what a great airline it was in 2001. Put everything on the table, TWA routes, flights still operation, airport facilities, ect. Let the Arbitrator decide what percentage of the TWA system today still operates, and staff it with the TWA pilot required. Fire the excess pilots from either side.

Are you in?

I already know what every STL bidsheet looks like. If AA pilots were scarfing the old TWA system and cleaning up on upgrades over TWA guys, I'd agree with you. The facts are that TWA Captain's (not FO's on the street) fly most of their flying on AA routes as well as what little remains of the original TWA system.

It truly sucks. I wish they kept your flying, it would have worked well for all of us. It didn't, and somebody is left without a seat.

 

[aa73]

AMR is a crappy, taxi slow, get in the damn way, airline.

Gup

LOL... we love it when ATC puts us in front of you guys on the taxiway... we can practically HEAR you guys saying, "Oh crap! Not AA!"

I kid, I kid... seriously, if ATC asks someone else to give way to us, I am always on the radio telling them, "no, no, we'll gladly give way." If you need to get around us, PLEASE ask and most of us will gladly give way. Paid by the minute baby!

 

[GuppyWN]

I was just poking fun but you guys DO taxi slow enough for the tires to get flat spots!

I left the gate tied with you guys the other day and was in the air raising the gear while you guys were half way to the runway. it was actually pretty funny.

Do you guys ride the brakes to go that slow? Seriously.

Gup