Trouble at Jetblue?

[Longhorn]

LOL....This post has been so entertaining.

 

[wndshr]

Agreed. That is one of the many reasons that alot of folks have apps with Fred and UPS...

that is correct!!! great biz plan...good leadership and economics....however, one never knows who is coming up with a company that can compete more effectively with the likes of FedEx and UPS...although they seem bullet proof now it is still anyone's guess what will happen 5-10-15 years down the road.

never count anyone out of the game....and nobody in any business is invulnerable. there will always be new companies that will try to do it better, cheaper and more efficiently. the LCC's in the airline industry have made billions off of the inefficiencies and dinosaur management mentality of some larger carriers. there will be a time in the next cycle where the LCC's of today will become the prey of the ULCC of tomorrow...(ULCC=Ultra Low Cost Carrier)

TIMING IS EVERYTHING! so dust off the crystal ball....grab the dice....and make the best decision for you, your family, your career expectations, and hope for lots of LUCK!

 

[pilotyip]

190 pay may be low compared to the 320, but it is better than almost any regional pay in the 90-100 seat range. And did not JB do something everyone has been yelling for, namely intergrate the senority list between the feeder and the mainline? Now the regional feeder pilot can bid by senority into the 320 and 330 when they get them. Sounds like a good deal to me.

 

[sleepy]

That is my brother and me at Graduation. Notice the utter joy on our faces on this very special day.

Truth be told, I have no idea.

I have seen this pic before. I believe that the two pictured are some of the first graduates of Clemson University.

 

[80drvr]

190 pay may be low compared to the 320, but it is better than almost any regional pay in the 90-100 seat range. And did not JB do something everyone has been yelling for, namely intergrate the senority list between the feeder and the mainline? Now the regional feeder pilot can bid by senority into the 320 and 330 when they get them. Sounds like a good deal to me.

So are you saying the E-190 is a regional "feeder" jet? Have you seen that thing?

 

[MickeySlapnutz]

190 pay may be low compared to the 320, but it is better than almost any regional pay in the 90-100 seat range. And did not JB do something everyone has been yelling for, namely intergrate the senority list between the feeder and the mainline? Now the regional feeder pilot can bid by senority into the 320 and 330 when they get them. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Who else fly's 90-100 seat airplanes? JB is getting A-330's.....news to me. What will the pay scale be on the 330? By the way...are any other employee groups at JB geting paid less when they crew/support the 190's? I'll bet not.......F/A's,Maint techs, dispatchers etc etc....I'll bet they all get paid the same no matter what airplane they work on or support.

Anyhow.....I have given you gents ample opportunity to save this Kitty and no one has stepped up to the plate. Kiss his fluffy a$$ goodbye.

 

[pilotyip]

Is not there a 90 seat RJ coming at Comair, how much will a Capt make on that at 2nd year pay. Is Comair a feeder?, regional?

 

[MickeySlapnutz]

See what you have made me do!!!!!!

 

[potrack]

Funny how everyone says that airbus pays for everything?

One thing the don't pay for is cleaning.....they got FAA ATPs to do that...funny how they worked that into the contract?....without even putting it in the contract.

 

[Captain Overs]

If you want to know where JetBlue will be in a few years just look at the resume of their CEO. I know he was at Southwest for awhile. The problem is he hasn't stayed in one place too long. As most of you know that means he'd be replaced. I heard Dave Seigel is looking for work. He has airline experience.

 

[capt. megadeth]

In the last year and a half at FredEx, I have blocked 33hrs a month. Ahhh, there's nothing like sitting on reserve and getting paid to sit at home and reply to aviation message boards all day!

SHOWOFF!!!! I'm jealous

P.S. AND he's only 34!

 

[AA717driver]

I wonder what will happen when the music stops and people get hired on the 190 as FO's with little upward movement. $37/hr. doesn't go very far.

Other than that, I wish everyone at JB the best. Hope it keeps rolling.TC

 

[wndshr]

Funny how everyone says that airbus pays for everything?

One thing the don't pay for is cleaning.....they got FAA ATPs to do that...funny how they worked that into the contract?....without even putting it in the contract.

i think JB just paid out 5-6% in profit sharing....$7000 extra bucks @ 5% on capt's pay aint too shabby to cross seatbelts...not much money being made at other airlines i hear?

 

[T45Flyer]

Mickey,
I thought your kitty homicide was pretty funny. Thanx for the effort.

 

[G4G5]

I wonder what will happen when the music stops and people get hired on the 190 as FO's with little upward movement. $37/hr. doesn't go very far.

Other than that, I wish everyone at JB the best. Hope it keeps rolling.TC

TC

You don't want to be this guy:

$37 x 75 hrs (reserve) x 12 = $33,300 - Uncle Sams Share approx 1/3 = $22,000 = $1,833 a month take home

$423 a week to sit in a crash pad in Kew Gardens. Good news is it goes up to $40 an hr in year 2.

Yeah, this guys going to be a happy camper. Mean while the A320 sr capts goes home with big bucks. The haves and have nots will do more to destroy the moral and force in a union then anything else. I was honestly hoping that Dave would have raised the bar on the 190 pay, in the long term it would have been better for everyone, especially the folks at B6

 

[Bosley]

LOL....This post has been so entertaining.

Yep, just add popcorn and a beer, and its a date!
Bos

 

[pilotyip]

G4 G5 your math does not match reality. Yes on reserve, your outcome may be true. That is not the picture I understand from friends of mine working at JB. First reserve is a very short assignment, most are holding a line their second month. Pay goes up 50% over 70 hours. In addition, bonuses for picking up open time. It is not unusual to get 110 hour pay credit per month and still get 12-13 days off. Let s 110 x’s $37 =’s $4070/mo. That is nearly 50K per year. That is great first year F/O pay at anyplace. Let’s see UPS $24K first year, Spirit 36K first year,

 

[F82C]

G4G5
Not to rain on your parade, but if the salary being offered is not to your standards don't work at jetblue - there are other worthy jobs to be had. Using AirlinePilotPay.com as a source it would seem first year pay on the EMB-190 is not bad when compared to other company first year pay (and most of them are not even hiring at this date):

AMR: $35.00 for all aircraft types
DAl: $56.00 for all aircraft types
NWA: $39.00 for all aircraft types
UAL: $31.00 for all aircraft types
USAir: $25.00 for all aircraft types
Airtran: $43.00 for all aircraft types
SWA: $48.00 for the only a/c flown
Jetblue: $51.00 for AB320 or $37.00 for EMB-190

I guess if I had to solely judge a job based on an initial salary then it would have eliminated a lot of great experiences I've had over the years. Best of luck in your career search....

 

[AA717driver]

You guys are missing my point. When the massive hiring stops, someone WILL be stuck on the bottom, on reserve staring at CA in 5,6,7 or more years. Keep in mind, JB has hired a whole lot of 35-45 year olds. Even $53/hour doesn't go that far. As someone mentioned on another thread, we are in the middle of the post 9/11 recovery. When it ends, who knows what will happen. Maybe people will be happy commuting to NYC making $50k.

My concern is that this disparity will generate a lot of bad feelings within the group unless management equalizes things a bit.TC

P.S.--G4G5--Bill S. says hi.

 

[AlbieF15]

I expect if low end pay at JB stagnates and hiring slows down, you'll see some of the bottom guys bailing for other carriers when offered the chance. I think JB is a great place. I also know several high quality folks who passed on them for AirTran, Fedex, and SWA. One trait of a company without a defined benefit plan is the "perk" of seniority and monetary importance of longevitiy are not as important as at an old "classic" airline with defined benefit (A) plans. People WILL leave for better pay and benefits.

So...if the pay ain't keepin up with the market, folks will bail with their fit. That's supply and demand. To promote stabilty and reduce training costs I expect pay will also go up.

I also expect JB management wants to keep the healthy atmosphere and prevent the company from forming a union. To prevent both, I expect pay will rise. (...I have, however, been wrong before...)

Bottom line is every since the company began, management has "under-promised" and "over delivered" to its crew force. That has built up some trust. Right now, the pilots there (outside looking in...my impression only) have expressed concern but are also saying "okay...you've done us right before, let's see what happens when the jets get here..."

Time will tell. In the meantime--if you think JB is a bad place to be...apply at UPS, FDX, Netjets, SWA, or Airtran. I'll be glad to help you prep wherever you want to go. That aside, the JB guys and gals I've met and helped have all been highly motivated, professional, and proud of their company. I'll bet they can make this work out to everyone's liking...

 

[UALjan15]

You guys are missing my point. When the massive hiring stops, someone WILL be stuck on the bottom, on reserve staring at CA in 5,6,7 or more years. Keep in mind, JB has hired a whole lot of 35-45 year olds. Even $53/hour doesn't go that far. As someone mentioned on another thread, we are in the middle of the post 9/11 recovery. When it ends, who knows what will happen. Maybe people will be happy commuting to NYC making $50k.

My concern is that this disparity will generate a lot of bad feelings within the group unless management equalizes things a bit.TC

Part of JB's strategy for keeping seat costs down is to keep the labor force and fleet young. New jets don't need much mx and help keep AVERAGE mx costs down (the 1st 320s are now starting to need more mx $$), so by growing rapidly, they achieve this. All of these new jets need new crews, and the philosophy here goes hand-in-hand. New hires keep the average labor cost down, and the seat lock will keep training costs in check.

As for your comment about the E-190 guys having bad feeling about the 320 guys, there is plenty of history out there to suggest otherwise. None of my friends that got hired at majors 5-10 years ago were complaining about having to "do time" as a 727 plumber, even though the pay was horrible. They just looked at it as a short stint in a hopefully long and prosperous career. Of course we were all wrong, but that's another story.....

Granted, if the music stops at JB and they stop growing, some guys will be on the 190, some guys will be on reserve, and some folks might be unhappy. Same thing applies anywhere, I guess. Such is life in this wonderful industry.

 

[FR8mastr]

sarcasm aside my understanding is that JB was allowed to defer payments on new aircraft for 3 years initially. Also some parts of scheduled maintainence were covered as some sort of warrentee from Airbus. I did not say free, just deferred. I have never heard anything else being given to JB. However I know for a fact that ABE gives tremendous gifts to any airline (other than legacy's) to come into that airport.. The latest in the line was Southeast They were given gates, landing fees, equipment, staff, and the biggest insult, was free advertising, billboards and such. So with that in mind it is certainly possible that some airports have given JB some stuff, even if only on a temp basis.

 

[IB6 UB9]

"$423 a week to sit in a crash pad in Kew Gardens. Good news is it goes up to $40 an hr in year 2."

Can anyone help me, I am spending around $1300 a month on my crashpad and need some money for the Q10.

Dude, if you are spending $423 a week on a crashpad, have I got a deal for you. PM me, include your credit card numbers and the expiration dates on them.

 

[wndshr]

You guys are missing my point. When the massive hiring stops, someone WILL be stuck on the bottom, on reserve staring at CA in 5,6,7 or more years. Keep in mind, JB has hired a whole lot of 35-45 year olds. Even $53/hour doesn't go that far. As someone mentioned on another thread, we are in the middle of the post 9/11 recovery. When it ends, who knows what will happen. Maybe people will be happy commuting to NYC making $50k.

My concern is that this disparity will generate a lot of bad feelings within the group unless management equalizes things a bit.TC

P.S.--G4G5--Bill S. says hi.

buddy at B6 told me he listened to the "5 year anniversary show" at JFK....management told the employees

"in 5 years we have 71 a/c....in another 5 years we will have north of 250 a/c..." managing growth will be the biggest challenge!

so....i don't think the music will stop anytime soon and that is the idea behind the low pay....if the growth stops...pay will have to be adjusted accordingly. if not, then i bet you will see some fertile grounds for organizing...but who knows.

my question is this.....if most of the pilots being hired today and in the past year or two are mainly furloughed major pilots and military....and if life was as bad as rumors would indicate on these message boards....you would think that logically there would be some sort of representation....afterall, they are not hiring folks that are new to the airline industry and new to managment scams!

i don't know...i just find it hard to believe that you can snowball a bunch of experienced pilots that have beaten up by a former major carrier and will sit quietly and turn the cheek...therefore, QOL has to be better than what they were getting at their previous "organized carrier" right? maybe someone has another spin??

 

[1-tacan-rule]

Shoot me with the same gun you used on the kitty....

....If that's what it takes to stop with the "JB only made/makes money because (fill in the blank)"

ALL airlines have deals, sidedeals, backdoor deals, confidential deals, B.S deals with everyone from airport authorities to airline manufaturers to...to...to....to

Because one company may have certain deals that other companies don't have, that doesn't dimish or asterisk those profit numbers. That's smart bizness....

 

[G4G5]

G4G5
Not to rain on your parade, but if the salary being offered is not to your standards don't work at jetblue - there are other worthy jobs to be had. Using AirlinePilotPay.com as a source it would seem first year pay on the EMB-190 is not bad when compared to other company first year pay (and most of them are not even hiring at this date):


I guess if I had to solely judge a job based on an initial salary then it would have eliminated a lot of great experiences I've had over the years. Best of luck in your career search....

Not to rain on your parade but your math does not add up.
Try looking at Second year pay and if you really want to make it ugly add in 3rd and 4th year pay and then calculate how far behind the Jet Blue E190 FO will be
AMR: $70
DAl: $77
NWA: $81
UAL: $49 (3rd year $71 vs $42 for Jet Blue)

That's why I mentioned 2nd year 190 pay was $40 an hour in my initial post. In his 2nd year he is conservativly $20-40 an hour behind his counterparts at UPS, Fedex, Airtran and Alaska (the airlines doing the hiring). Then add 3rd 4th and so on. You never recoupe lost wages.

What AA and I are trying to say is that when the music stops the 190 is going to be one ugly seat to get stuck in. the growth can't keep up at it's pace. Like some else posted, just think of it logicly from zero to 71 jets in 5 years. For the last guy in the door to reach the left seat how many more jets need to come onto the property? Sooner or later the music stops.

PS my career search is over

 

[G4G5]

G4 G5 your math does not match reality. Yes on reserve, your outcome may be true. That is not the picture I understand from friends of mine working at JB. First reserve is a very short assignment, most are holding a line their second month. Pay goes up 50% over 70 hours. In addition, bonuses for picking up open time. It is not unusual to get 110 hour pay credit per month and still get 12-13 days off. Let s 110 x’s $37 =’s $4070/mo. That is nearly 50K per year. That is great first year F/O pay at anyplace. Let’s see UPS $24K first year, Spirit 36K first year,

My math is reality, I am not quite sure what yours is, you can only count on reserve gurantee and thats what my numbers are based on.

First off what are reserve folks flying at every major in the country? 110 hours I think not.

Ask the guys at SWA, UPS, AA you name it, what the average bottom feeder reservist flys? 110 is no where near reality (consistantly getting 110 hours of pay credit as a new hire is a short lived pipe dream). My point and AA717's is, sooner or later the hiring slows down and someone will be left sitting in the right seat ofthe ERJ, someone has to be the last one hired.

FAA limit is 1000 per year which if you max it out equates to 83 a month. So how are you coming up with 110 for a JetBlue new hire? The company has no intension of letting somone on reserve consistantly fly 110 hours. they wouls max out in just 9 months and have then next 3 off with pay.


Their is not enough lip stick in the world to cover this pig. You can't find enough some and mirrors to make the jetBlue 190 pay rates look descent but thanks for trying.

 

[FR8mastr]

....If that's what it takes to stop with the "JB only made/makes money because (fill in the blank)"

ALL airlines have deals, sidedeals, backdoor deals, confidential deals, B.S deals with everyone from airport authorities to airline manufaturers to...to...to....to

Because one company may have certain deals that other companies don't have, that doesn't dimish or asterisk those profit numbers. That's smart bizness....

That's pretty simplistic but hey you are correct they would be crazy not to take the handouts. Its just not fare to compare airline A that does not pay for all those things against Airline B that does, because politicians are using taxpayer money to pay for gates and such, so they can look like hero's because they brought in airline A to teach the big bad airline B a thing or two. Not to mention that certain aircraft makers are taken care of by certain EU countries, but thats another topic

 

[CSY Mon]

Dude, if you are spending $423 a week on a crashpad, have I got a deal for you. PM me, include your credit card numbers and the expiration dates on them.

Relax Tiger, he was probably talking about his INCOME of $423 @ week, NOT the price-tag for the crash pad.

 

[HalinTexas]

How much are crashpads going for in/around JFK now anyway?