Trouble at Jetblue?

[Bosley]

LOL....This post has been so entertaining.

Yep, just add popcorn and a beer, and its a date!
Bos

 

[pilotyip]

G4 G5 your math does not match reality. Yes on reserve, your outcome may be true. That is not the picture I understand from friends of mine working at JB. First reserve is a very short assignment, most are holding a line their second month. Pay goes up 50% over 70 hours. In addition, bonuses for picking up open time. It is not unusual to get 110 hour pay credit per month and still get 12-13 days off. Let s 110 x’s $37 =’s $4070/mo. That is nearly 50K per year. That is great first year F/O pay at anyplace. Let’s see UPS $24K first year, Spirit 36K first year,

 

[F82C]

G4G5
Not to rain on your parade, but if the salary being offered is not to your standards don't work at jetblue - there are other worthy jobs to be had. Using AirlinePilotPay.com as a source it would seem first year pay on the EMB-190 is not bad when compared to other company first year pay (and most of them are not even hiring at this date):

AMR: $35.00 for all aircraft types
DAl: $56.00 for all aircraft types
NWA: $39.00 for all aircraft types
UAL: $31.00 for all aircraft types
USAir: $25.00 for all aircraft types
Airtran: $43.00 for all aircraft types
SWA: $48.00 for the only a/c flown
Jetblue: $51.00 for AB320 or $37.00 for EMB-190

I guess if I had to solely judge a job based on an initial salary then it would have eliminated a lot of great experiences I've had over the years. Best of luck in your career search....

 

[AA717driver]

You guys are missing my point. When the massive hiring stops, someone WILL be stuck on the bottom, on reserve staring at CA in 5,6,7 or more years. Keep in mind, JB has hired a whole lot of 35-45 year olds. Even $53/hour doesn't go that far. As someone mentioned on another thread, we are in the middle of the post 9/11 recovery. When it ends, who knows what will happen. Maybe people will be happy commuting to NYC making $50k.

My concern is that this disparity will generate a lot of bad feelings within the group unless management equalizes things a bit.TC

P.S.--G4G5--Bill S. says hi.

 

[AlbieF15]

I expect if low end pay at JB stagnates and hiring slows down, you'll see some of the bottom guys bailing for other carriers when offered the chance. I think JB is a great place. I also know several high quality folks who passed on them for AirTran, Fedex, and SWA. One trait of a company without a defined benefit plan is the "perk" of seniority and monetary importance of longevitiy are not as important as at an old "classic" airline with defined benefit (A) plans. People WILL leave for better pay and benefits.

So...if the pay ain't keepin up with the market, folks will bail with their fit. That's supply and demand. To promote stabilty and reduce training costs I expect pay will also go up.

I also expect JB management wants to keep the healthy atmosphere and prevent the company from forming a union. To prevent both, I expect pay will rise. (...I have, however, been wrong before...)

Bottom line is every since the company began, management has "under-promised" and "over delivered" to its crew force. That has built up some trust. Right now, the pilots there (outside looking in...my impression only) have expressed concern but are also saying "okay...you've done us right before, let's see what happens when the jets get here..."

Time will tell. In the meantime--if you think JB is a bad place to be...apply at UPS, FDX, Netjets, SWA, or Airtran. I'll be glad to help you prep wherever you want to go. That aside, the JB guys and gals I've met and helped have all been highly motivated, professional, and proud of their company. I'll bet they can make this work out to everyone's liking...

 

[UALjan15]

You guys are missing my point. When the massive hiring stops, someone WILL be stuck on the bottom, on reserve staring at CA in 5,6,7 or more years. Keep in mind, JB has hired a whole lot of 35-45 year olds. Even $53/hour doesn't go that far. As someone mentioned on another thread, we are in the middle of the post 9/11 recovery. When it ends, who knows what will happen. Maybe people will be happy commuting to NYC making $50k.

My concern is that this disparity will generate a lot of bad feelings within the group unless management equalizes things a bit.TC

Part of JB's strategy for keeping seat costs down is to keep the labor force and fleet young. New jets don't need much mx and help keep AVERAGE mx costs down (the 1st 320s are now starting to need more mx $$), so by growing rapidly, they achieve this. All of these new jets need new crews, and the philosophy here goes hand-in-hand. New hires keep the average labor cost down, and the seat lock will keep training costs in check.

As for your comment about the E-190 guys having bad feeling about the 320 guys, there is plenty of history out there to suggest otherwise. None of my friends that got hired at majors 5-10 years ago were complaining about having to "do time" as a 727 plumber, even though the pay was horrible. They just looked at it as a short stint in a hopefully long and prosperous career. Of course we were all wrong, but that's another story.....

Granted, if the music stops at JB and they stop growing, some guys will be on the 190, some guys will be on reserve, and some folks might be unhappy. Same thing applies anywhere, I guess. Such is life in this wonderful industry.

 

[FR8mastr]

sarcasm aside my understanding is that JB was allowed to defer payments on new aircraft for 3 years initially. Also some parts of scheduled maintainence were covered as some sort of warrentee from Airbus. I did not say free, just deferred. I have never heard anything else being given to JB. However I know for a fact that ABE gives tremendous gifts to any airline (other than legacy's) to come into that airport.. The latest in the line was Southeast They were given gates, landing fees, equipment, staff, and the biggest insult, was free advertising, billboards and such. So with that in mind it is certainly possible that some airports have given JB some stuff, even if only on a temp basis.

 

[IB6 UB9]

"$423 a week to sit in a crash pad in Kew Gardens. Good news is it goes up to $40 an hr in year 2."

Can anyone help me, I am spending around $1300 a month on my crashpad and need some money for the Q10.

Dude, if you are spending $423 a week on a crashpad, have I got a deal for you. PM me, include your credit card numbers and the expiration dates on them.

 

[wndshr]

You guys are missing my point. When the massive hiring stops, someone WILL be stuck on the bottom, on reserve staring at CA in 5,6,7 or more years. Keep in mind, JB has hired a whole lot of 35-45 year olds. Even $53/hour doesn't go that far. As someone mentioned on another thread, we are in the middle of the post 9/11 recovery. When it ends, who knows what will happen. Maybe people will be happy commuting to NYC making $50k.

My concern is that this disparity will generate a lot of bad feelings within the group unless management equalizes things a bit.TC

P.S.--G4G5--Bill S. says hi.

buddy at B6 told me he listened to the "5 year anniversary show" at JFK....management told the employees

"in 5 years we have 71 a/c....in another 5 years we will have north of 250 a/c..." managing growth will be the biggest challenge!

so....i don't think the music will stop anytime soon and that is the idea behind the low pay....if the growth stops...pay will have to be adjusted accordingly. if not, then i bet you will see some fertile grounds for organizing...but who knows.

my question is this.....if most of the pilots being hired today and in the past year or two are mainly furloughed major pilots and military....and if life was as bad as rumors would indicate on these message boards....you would think that logically there would be some sort of representation....afterall, they are not hiring folks that are new to the airline industry and new to managment scams!

i don't know...i just find it hard to believe that you can snowball a bunch of experienced pilots that have beaten up by a former major carrier and will sit quietly and turn the cheek...therefore, QOL has to be better than what they were getting at their previous "organized carrier" right? maybe someone has another spin??

 

[1-tacan-rule]

Shoot me with the same gun you used on the kitty....

....If that's what it takes to stop with the "JB only made/makes money because (fill in the blank)"

ALL airlines have deals, sidedeals, backdoor deals, confidential deals, B.S deals with everyone from airport authorities to airline manufaturers to...to...to....to

Because one company may have certain deals that other companies don't have, that doesn't dimish or asterisk those profit numbers. That's smart bizness....

 

[G4G5]

G4G5
Not to rain on your parade, but if the salary being offered is not to your standards don't work at jetblue - there are other worthy jobs to be had. Using AirlinePilotPay.com as a source it would seem first year pay on the EMB-190 is not bad when compared to other company first year pay (and most of them are not even hiring at this date):


I guess if I had to solely judge a job based on an initial salary then it would have eliminated a lot of great experiences I've had over the years. Best of luck in your career search....

Not to rain on your parade but your math does not add up.
Try looking at Second year pay and if you really want to make it ugly add in 3rd and 4th year pay and then calculate how far behind the Jet Blue E190 FO will be
AMR: $70
DAl: $77
NWA: $81
UAL: $49 (3rd year $71 vs $42 for Jet Blue)

That's why I mentioned 2nd year 190 pay was $40 an hour in my initial post. In his 2nd year he is conservativly $20-40 an hour behind his counterparts at UPS, Fedex, Airtran and Alaska (the airlines doing the hiring). Then add 3rd 4th and so on. You never recoupe lost wages.

What AA and I are trying to say is that when the music stops the 190 is going to be one ugly seat to get stuck in. the growth can't keep up at it's pace. Like some else posted, just think of it logicly from zero to 71 jets in 5 years. For the last guy in the door to reach the left seat how many more jets need to come onto the property? Sooner or later the music stops.

PS my career search is over

 

[G4G5]

G4 G5 your math does not match reality. Yes on reserve, your outcome may be true. That is not the picture I understand from friends of mine working at JB. First reserve is a very short assignment, most are holding a line their second month. Pay goes up 50% over 70 hours. In addition, bonuses for picking up open time. It is not unusual to get 110 hour pay credit per month and still get 12-13 days off. Let s 110 x’s $37 =’s $4070/mo. That is nearly 50K per year. That is great first year F/O pay at anyplace. Let’s see UPS $24K first year, Spirit 36K first year,

My math is reality, I am not quite sure what yours is, you can only count on reserve gurantee and thats what my numbers are based on.

First off what are reserve folks flying at every major in the country? 110 hours I think not.

Ask the guys at SWA, UPS, AA you name it, what the average bottom feeder reservist flys? 110 is no where near reality (consistantly getting 110 hours of pay credit as a new hire is a short lived pipe dream). My point and AA717's is, sooner or later the hiring slows down and someone will be left sitting in the right seat ofthe ERJ, someone has to be the last one hired.

FAA limit is 1000 per year which if you max it out equates to 83 a month. So how are you coming up with 110 for a JetBlue new hire? The company has no intension of letting somone on reserve consistantly fly 110 hours. they wouls max out in just 9 months and have then next 3 off with pay.


Their is not enough lip stick in the world to cover this pig. You can't find enough some and mirrors to make the jetBlue 190 pay rates look descent but thanks for trying.

 

[FR8mastr]

....If that's what it takes to stop with the "JB only made/makes money because (fill in the blank)"

ALL airlines have deals, sidedeals, backdoor deals, confidential deals, B.S deals with everyone from airport authorities to airline manufaturers to...to...to....to

Because one company may have certain deals that other companies don't have, that doesn't dimish or asterisk those profit numbers. That's smart bizness....

That's pretty simplistic but hey you are correct they would be crazy not to take the handouts. Its just not fare to compare airline A that does not pay for all those things against Airline B that does, because politicians are using taxpayer money to pay for gates and such, so they can look like hero's because they brought in airline A to teach the big bad airline B a thing or two. Not to mention that certain aircraft makers are taken care of by certain EU countries, but thats another topic

 

[CSY Mon]

Dude, if you are spending $423 a week on a crashpad, have I got a deal for you. PM me, include your credit card numbers and the expiration dates on them.

Relax Tiger, he was probably talking about his INCOME of $423 @ week, NOT the price-tag for the crash pad.

 

[HalinTexas]

How much are crashpads going for in/around JFK now anyway?