Tough Choice--SWA or UPS?

[hoya saxa]

The sour ones unfortunately are more noticeable.

Ah, and there's the rub.

 

[Clyde]

You name it ,,,NO SLEEEEEP

P.S have you seen what the average 40 year old coming out of the Lazy Boy room looks like at UPS? Trust me, the LUV is gone in Louisville at 3AM.

I just finished an 8-day long international trip. I flew 4 legs, average length being 8.5 hours and never flew more than one leg in a given day. All daytime flying, and all catered, two meals plus snacks, beverages, water, coffee, etc. And no, we didn't have to run into the terminal to purchase it all either. Plus, with an IRO, a nice 2-3 hour nap in a the bunk if you got tired.

Get to where we are going, and it's time for 24-36 hours off (depending on which side of the ocean you are on). Plenty of time for enough sleep, a good workout in the morning, breakfast, shopping, lunch, a nap, and then report for the trip very well rested and fed. More catering for the return trip plus another 2-3 hour rest break in cruise if I want it. One leg then off to the hotel for more rest and relaxation. Never saw Louisville (or the sort) the entire time, and now I'm off for two weeks straight.

"Trust me, the LUV is gone in Louisville at 3AM."

I don't think you will find much "LUV" anywhere at 3AM. I've flown several transcon flights in the middle of the night last year, and I heard several callsigns of different passenger carriers, at least as many if not more than us and FedEx. That average "40-year old" you are referring to is probably the same person with two solid-pension funds, a salary well into 6-figures, excellent health benefits, and no worries of a regional jet taking over any routes. I've seen plenty of average "40 year-olds" at other majors who look worse than we do in the middle of the night, but mostly because many never thought that they would be updating their resumes after getting "the call" for their dream passenger carrier.

Don't get into hauling boxes if you want hugs and kisses. Do get into it if you want a long, solid and well-paying career.

Back to the original thread:

WHO TO GO TO
I don't know much about what it is like working at SWA, so I'll leave that to the SWA pilots here. However, I will say this much. If I were to fly passengers, SWA would be my first choice. They are solid, they pay very well, and they are growing. As a paying passenger, I almost exclusively fly SWA, for I am a very happy customer and recommend them to others. Friends of mine who have gone their to fly are very happy.

As far as being a box-hauler goes, it is not for the weak-at-heart. I won't kid you, the flying and the schedules can be very challenging. But, there are payoffs.

DIVERSITY:
You will have a great choice of what to fly if you come here. Domestic and international routes. You can fly one or the other exclusively, or with some seniority you can mix it up. Some schedules are week-on/week-off, others (international) can be as much as 12-days on. Then, you can enjoy as much as 2 weeks off. Reserve is also an option. Some fleets are using reserves quite a bit, and others are using them maybe a few days a month. I've flown both, and prefer international. At present time, I'm averaging 10 days of flying per month.

PAY AND BENEFITS:
First year pay is pathetic, there's no argument there. I grossed $27K my first year as a flight engineer. My second year as an international F/O, I worked 12-14 days a month and grossed $93K. If you can stomach probationary pay, you will more than be rewarded after that. Also, the first year pay can be higher if you are international and get some high-time lines and per-diem. I wouldn't let this be a disqualifier. On the bright side, you are going to have a 401k, the pension funds are fully-funded. i.e., the cash is already in there. Full medical benefits are also part of the plan too. If you are fortunate to stay healthy long enough during the year, you are paid for some of the sick time that you don't use. I didn't call in sick last year (I didn't need to) and received a check for $4K at the end of the year.

MISCELLANEOUS:
Boxes move. Period. Unlike a passenger airplane, you don't have to completely fill a freighter to be profitable. When they are full, the profits for those flights can be huge and the airplane pays for itself many times over. What this translates to is stability and security. Freight is not prone to the same market conditons (at least not as adversely affected) as the PAX airlines are. A person buys something online, and they want it yesterday. Chances are that they will pay a little more to have it shipped by air overnight. Depending on how cheap a ticket is, this same person may or may not fly somewhere for vacation.

Unless I am repositioning somewhere on a ticket, I don't have to deal with all of the hassles of going through the terminals. Also, boxes don't complain about the ride, they don't get sick halfway through the trip, and sometimes we are able to block out early once we are loaded.

I hope this helps all who read it. As I mentioned earlier, night-flying isn't for everybody, so there is no shame in going elsewhere if that is what you desire. I have more respect for someone who chooses a PAX carrier than one who hires on with us and then does nothing but complain about the flying. It's fun on the "dawg" side of the street. I turned down interviews at two major passenger carriers to come here, and I have absolutely no regrets. Brown is a great place to be.

 

[Clyde]

I'm not familiar with UPS, but I do know that they are lucky to be there as well...and my question is this...

Are you able to swap/trade at UPS?

Yes, you are able to trade trips at UPS. Most people usually swap their lines with something in open-time.

 

[Clyde]

Fact: you will not so much as have one subtle flirtation from some pretty young thing bringing you your lunch @UPS!

Which flight attendants would you be referring to: the 50-something year-old grandma's, or the "friendly" male flight attendants?

 

[Clyde]

Here's why,,,because after a short time (too short), you will not see the difference between sitting in a 747 or a 737. In fact you will equate aircraft endurance with quality of life,,,I.E: 737,,,4 hrs GOOD! 747: 13 hrs BAAAAADDD!!!

Actually, the longest leg that you would realistically see here in a 747 is about 10 hours. More than 12 and you need to double-crew it, something we don't currently do.

With 36-48 hours off at the end of the trip, you have plenty of time to stretch your legs. And because the flights are so long in length, you will probably average about 10 working days a month.

 

[Clyde]

There are studies you should read about people who work at night and how it shortens their life spans by 6 to 8 years and also leaves them suceptable to all sorts of medical ailments-- so even if 40% of flying is at day-- is it worth it-- I would have taken a UPS job if it was offered ---- But then again I was not offered UPS and SWA; much less both.. Take SWA

There is probably some truth to what you have posted. But, just like anything else, it all boils down to how you take care of yourself too. This job is like being a professinal athlete: if you want to perform well you have to be in shape.

I average about 20 days off a month, and most of them are spent in the gym for about 2 hours a day. While on the road, I work out as well. Combined with a very good diet, I'm in excellent shape. I'm not Arnold by any stretch of the imagination, but my stomach is flat, I'm well-toned, and can blaze a pretty good trail when I run. I'm in much better shape than most people my age who don't fly for a living and work day jobs.

Lots of water and plenty of sleep help too. If you are in shape, you can sleep 6-8 hours during the day and wake up feeling very refreshed.

I admit though, that I probably represent a small percentage of those of us out there, and night flying will probably take it's toll on a lot of us who do it over the years. But, I have also seen plenty of passenger pilots in the terminals who look like they can't even fit through the cockpit door too. I think it all boils down to how well you take care of yourself.

 

[YGBSM]

Dude, I'd go with UPS if I were you. They will be getting the A-380!!!! Imagine how cool it would be to fly that thing!!!!

'Cause it's much more exciting to fly straight and level on autopilot in the A-380 than it is to fly straight and level on autopilot in the 737.

 

[TheBaron]

Your opinion be wrong! FedEx will generate more revenue this year from it's ground side vs. it's express side.

Not sure where you got your info. Express revenue (and income) is more than Ground, Freight, and Kinko's combined. Margins and growth are slightly better at Ground and Freight. Here is the last financial statement from the corporate web site.

Double-digit Earnings Growth Expected in Fiscal 2006
MEMPHIS, Tenn., June 23, 2005 ... FedEx Corporation (NYSE: FDX) today reported earnings of $1.46 per diluted share for the fourth quarter ended May 31, compared to $1.36 per diluted share a year ago.

"Our strong performance is a result of an effective strategy of cross-selling the full portfolio of FedEx services and delivering outstanding customer service," said Frederick W. Smith, chairman, president and chief executive officer. "Our strategy is working well and we continue to innovate to bring more value to our customers worldwide. We see continued steady economic growth, both in the U.S. and in international markets, across many sectors. As we enter fiscal 2006, we are highly optimistic about the business and expect to achieve double-digit earnings growth."

Fourth Quarter Results

FedEx Corp. reported the following consolidated results for the fourth quarter:

Revenue of $7.72 billion, up 10% from $7.04 billion the previous year
Operating income of $740 million, up 8% from $685 million a year ago
Operating margin of 9.6%, down from 9.7% the previous year
Net income of $448 million, up 9% from last year's $412 million
Operating margin during the fourth quarter was negatively impacted by costs associated with the start-up of a new westbound around-the-world flight in support of future international growth at FedEx Express.

Total combined average daily package volume at FedEx Express and FedEx Ground grew approximately 6% year over year for the quarter, due to continued growth in international express, ground and U.S. domestic express shipments.

Full Year Results

FedEx Corp. reported the following consolidated results for the full year:

Revenue of $29.4 billion, up 19% from $24.7 billion the previous year
Operating income of $2.47 billion, up 72% from $1.44 billion a year ago
Operating margin of 8.4%, up from 5.8% the previous year
Net income of $1.45 billion, up 73% from last year's $838 million
Earnings per share of $4.72, up 71% from $2.76 per share the previous year
Fiscal 2005 revenues included $2.07 billion from FedEx Kinko's compared to $621 million last year. FedEx Kinko's was acquired in late fiscal 2004. Fiscal 2005 includes a $48 million or $0.10 per diluted share one-time charge related to the Air Transportation Safety and System Stabilization Act, partially offset by a $0.04 per diluted share tax benefit resulting from the passage of the American Jobs Creation Act of 2004. Fiscal 2004 included $435 million or $0.89 per diluted share of business realignment expenses associated with voluntary early retirement and severance programs and $0.12 per diluted share from tax benefits.

Cash flow provided by operations improved for 2005 as well. Combined with available cash balances, cash flow from operations was sufficient to fund capital expenditures for business growth and repay approximately $790 million of debt. Capital spending in fiscal 2005 was $2.2 billion. In addition, the quarterly dividend was increased $0.01 to $0.08 per share in the most recent dividend declaration.

"During fiscal 2005, we made significant progress in our financial goals of improving margins, operating cash flows and returns for our shareowners," said Alan B. Graf, Jr., executive vice president and chief financial officer.

Outlook

FedEx expects earnings to be $1.10 to $1.25 per diluted share in the first quarter of fiscal 2006. This earnings guidance reflects the recent escalation in jet fuel prices which are expected to remain elevated during the quarter. In addition, the earnings guidance reflects the timing lag associated with the Express fuel surcharge, continued startup expenses related to the westbound around-the-world flight and minimal U.S. domestic base yield growth in the company's package services due to a competitive pricing environment.

Earnings for the year are expected to be $5.20 to $5.45 per diluted share, with the company benefiting from growth in FedEx International Priority®, FedEx Ground and FedEx Freight shipments and improving operating margins. Cash flow is expected to improve.

Capital spending for fiscal 2006 is forecast to be approximately $2.5 billion. Investments in the company's highest margin service lines will continue as the company adds incremental international routes, deploys new productivity enhancing technologies and broadens the size of its aircraft fleet and sortation capacity to meet future growth.

FedEx Express Segment

For the fourth quarter, the FedEx Express segment reported:

Revenue of $5.12 billion, up 9% from last year's $4.71 billion
Operating income of $431 million, up 6% from $407 million a year ago
Operating margin of 8.4%, down from 8.6% the previous year
FedEx International Priority (IP) revenue grew 14% for the quarter, as IP revenue per package grew 7%, primarily due to fuel surcharges and favorable exchange rate differences. IP average daily package volume grew 6%. U.S. domestic express package revenue increased more than 5%, as yield increased 3% and U.S. domestic average daily package volume grew 2%. The yield increase was driven by fuel surcharge revenue.

Operating margin during the fourth quarter was negatively impacted by costs associated with the start-up of a new westbound around-the-world flight in support of future international growth at FedEx Express.

FedEx Ground Segment

For the fourth quarter, the FedEx Ground segment reported:

Revenue of $1.23 billion, up 17% from last year's $1.06 billion
Operating income of $173 million, up 9% from $159 million a year ago
Operating margin of 14.0%, down from 15.1% the previous year
FedEx Ground average daily package volume grew 9% year over year in the fourth quarter. Yield improved 5% primarily due to the general rate increase, improvement in extra services revenue and the January 2005 reimplementation of a fuel surcharge.

Despite improved field productivity at FedEx Ground, the segment operating margin declined primarily because of losses at FedEx SmartPost and higher year-over-year expenses related to the company's capacity expansion program.

FedEx Freight Segment

For the fourth quarter, the FedEx Freight segment reported:

Revenue of $843 million, up 11% from last year's $758 million
Operating income of $95 million, up 19% from $80 million a year ago
Operating margin of 11.3%, up from 10.6% the previous year
Less-than-truckload (LTL) yield improved 11% year over year, reflecting incremental fuel surcharges, growth in interregional freight service and higher rates. FedEx Freight implemented a 5.6% general rate increase effective May 16, 2005. Average daily LTL shipments increased 3% year over year.

Operating margin was up compared to the previous year due to LTL yield and volume growth.

FedEx Kinko's Segment

For the fourth quarter, the FedEx Kinko's segment reported:

Revenue of $553 million, up 6% from last year's $521 million
Operating income of $41 million, up 5% from $39 million a year ago
Operating margin of 7.4%, down from 7.5% the previous year
FedEx Kinko's revenue for the quarter was driven by demand for packaging and shipping services and signs and banners, partially offset by a slight decline in copy product lines.

Operating margin continued to be negatively affected by integration and expansion activities, including costs associated with center rebranding and expansion, the centralization of FedEx Kinko's corporate office and the launch of packaging and shipping services at its U.S. locations. Costs associated with expansion and integration activities will continue in fiscal 2006.

With the conversion of 176 former FedEx World Service Center locations to FedEx Kinko's Ship Centers during the quarter, as well as the continued opening of new domestic and international centers, the company now has approximately 1,440 locations worldwide, up from approximately 1,200 locations a year ago.

 

[Juvat]

I believe "he" is a "she." Glad I chose cargo. I AM a people person; love observing them, but would hate never getting a break from them. To be frank, I enjoy her cynical viewpoints. Don't tell me you never bitched about "the man" keeping you down during your time in the Air Farce (sic). My personal fave is to just blame everything, from stubbing my toe to not being a millionaire, on "those b@stards."

Noted. I've never been convinced that gender has much bearing on the content of the posts here. However, judging from the high levels of testosterone in Megadeth's posts, I may soon change my opinion. I'll bet he/she has really hairy arms...

So anyway, nice to hear from you after all these months. Me bitch about the man in the Air Force? No way...I was the man. (or perhaps I should say "person" in light of all the gender sensitivity here.)

I also enjoy all of Megadeth's cynicism. It gives the rest of us such a nice, stable target. Everyone likes a big strafe rag with no crosswind.

 

[1800 RVR]

Can't we all just get along?

Clyde,

Great posts! As a Brown poolie who is starting class in 2 weeks, I have to agree with you on the pax pilot appearance. When you walk through any airline terminal lately, all you get are stares of "zombiness", as I call them: poor pilots that have been raked over the coals by their managements, bent over without the use of KY, paycuts upon paycuts, pensions gone, job instability nipping at their heels, Chap. 11, etc. walking through the terminal with a blank stare; the fun of the job is GONE. With the exception of SWA pilots. They still enjoy their jobs and that is great! That's what it is all about.

But for all of you that are bagging on capt. megadeath, she has many valid points. I'm also from that dysfunctional family known as ATA, and I agree with her as well. I love my job, I loved flying pax, but in the last 2 years, it has become a drag (for the most part). People crap on you any opportunity they can, there is no respect, you get yelled at in the terminal when your flight is delayed because of wx, air rage, etc. I can go on forever. It was getting so bad that I would avoid going into the terminal just to avoid people. That is not a way to go and do business. But for self-sanity, you had to. It has become a sad state of affairs.

I guess where I was going with my point is this: whatever choice one makes is the choice that they have to live with. There is no such thing as a right or wrong airline. You go where you think you will be happy. For some, it will be pax, and for others it will be boxes. You can't go wrong with either choice; SWA and UPS are two great companies to work for.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

'Cause it's much more exciting to fly straight and level on autopilot in the A-380 than it is to fly straight and level on autopilot in the 737.

I've never really been able to put my finger on it, but there is definitely a unique feeling to flying international big iron. It is a camaraderie amongst aviators ... similar to what I felt while flying in the military. The atmosphere at the international watering holes where flight crews from many carriers congregate is as lively (usually more so) than in the states, but there's an intangible, underlying sense of mutual respect among the crews, above the usual politeness, that's just absent stateside. Perhaps it's the obvious circumstance of being in a foreign country far from home, but even bumping in to a fellow UPS pilot feels different in Singapore than San Antonio.

 

[YGBSM]

I've never really been able to put my finger on it, but there is definitely a unique feeling to flying international big iron. It is a camaraderie amongst aviators ... similar to what I felt while flying in the military. The atmosphere at the international watering holes where flight crews from many carriers congregate is as lively (usually more so) than in the states, but there's an intangible, underlying sense of mutual respect among the crews, above the usual politeness, that's just absent stateside. Perhaps it's the obvious circumstance of being in a foreign country far from home, but even bumping in to a fellow UPS pilot feels different in Singapore than San Antonio.

Agreed.

And none of which relates to what kind of equipment you got there in.

 

[Clyde]

Look at 410's profile. Nuff said. I fly passengers, and will eventually retire from the airline I am with, and trust me, I want nothing to do with taking out the trash everynight anymore. Been there done that. But I am a mentor to a few young hopefuls over there at Willowrun, and here we go again with friggen UPS strike CRAP. Every company over there will book trips with UPS and expect their pilots to fly them. It is a situation that basically is not fair for the YIP pilots. BIG BROWN EYE isnt even an AIRLINE! It is a parcel service! Be prepared to have a bunch of competent folks in airplanes with all different paint jobs show up and move your stuff.

"I fly passengers, and will eventually retire from the airline I am with, and trust me, I want nothing to do with taking out the trash everynight anymore."

Who do you fly for? Judging by your profile, I'm going to say Spirit, but I could be wrong.

"Every company over there will book trips with UPS and expect their pilots to fly them."
So, how many USA Jet Falcon 20's can possibly handle one 747-sized load from SDF to ANC?

"BIG BROWN EYE isnt even an AIRLINE! It is a parcel service!"
Another good reason to work here. Airlines tend to go bankrupt and furlough pilots. Parcel delivery companies tend to be profitable every year. The paycheck hits the bank on time every two weeks, the amount of money being deposited is a lot, and I enjoy a very good schedule. For all I care you can call us a trucking company or anything else that you want, the money is still very green here.

"Be prepared to have a bunch of competent folks in airplanes with all different paint jobs show up and move your stuff."
Keep dreamin'.

 

[Clyde]

If your a person that likes to be up all night and can only fit in with other pilots, you must go to UPS or FEDEX. If you are a person that likes the occasional chat with a new person in your life and is willing to impress people with your skills, come on over to the light side. We like people,people. I came from the Dark side, and prefer the light side sssssssooooo much more.

"If you are a person that likes the occasional chat with a new person in your life and is willing to impress people with your skills, come on over to the light side."
I have a great idea. Why don't you and I compare our W-2 statements for the last 5 years. You can impress people with your skills and I can impress my banker with the amount of money I'm stuffing into my account each month.

BTW, most people I talk to are very impressed that I already have 5 years seniority at a major, fly international in widebodies, and I'm not even in my mid-30's yet. While you're "impressing" new people with your skills, I'll be impressing people by showing them my 100% paid for house that I will own before I hit age 40.

 

[Clyde]

Final Thoughts

O.K., probably not final, but it sounds good.

We can go on and on about who is better, night vs day, this vs that, and so forth. Just like any decision one makes in life over just about anything, look at the pros and cons and choose accordingly. Nobody knows if they made the right decision in aviation until the day they retire and even then it can be iffy.

Do you like daytime flying, people, and airline terminals? Then go fly people.

Do you like night flying, cans instead of seats, and sorts? Then fly cargo.

I have many friends on both sides of the fence, and each is fairly happy with their decisions. If a person says that night flying isn't for them and they would rather fly people, then that is cool. It's what they want and it makes them happy. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have more respect for somebody who says they don't like flying the backside of the clock than someone who does fly all night and spends every minute complaining about it. A person is neither greater nor weaker an aviator for choosing one over the other.

Base your decision on these factors:

Quality of life opportunities (i.e., schedules)
Domiciles
Job security
Salary and benefits (to include retirement options)
Company growth
Company financials
Historical growth and finance of the company (including furlough trends)
Upgrade times

Other items to look at, but not necessarily deal breakers:

Can I commute?
Varitey of flying (domestic vs international)
Variety of airframes

Finally, if you are fortunate to have a choice between two companies, talk to pilots who are actually employed by both and get the pros and cons right from the horse's mouth.

I have yet to meet a SWA pilot that I did not enjoy meeting. Every one of them that I have had the opportunity to meet over the past few years have been some of the most professional and friendly people I have ever met. I would venture to say that most would be happy to talk to you about the SWA lifestyle.

The same goes for the guys here at Brown. If you want to know what life is like working in our shoes, talk to some of us directly. Most of us too would be very happy to answer some of your questions.

After you have talked to people from both companies, then list out the facts and see which one fits your mold the best. The one that best suits your lifestyle is the one you should choose.

There are some on this board who work for neither company, are clueless about both, but think they know enough to say something. Not to say they aren't entitled to an opinion, but I wouldn't pay much attention to them. You wouldn't contact a stock broker to ask about how to rewire your house, so if you want to know about night freight, talk to the Brown and Purple dudes.

Hope this helps.

 

[Goose Egg]

I would just like to add that the WN vs. Brown decision is defintely a dilema that I hope that I have someday.

-Goose

 

[WillowRunVortex]

"If you are a person that likes the occasional chat with a new person in your life and is willing to impress people with your skills, come on over to the light side."
I have a great idea. Why don't you and I compare our W-2 statements for the last 5 years. You can impress people with your skills and I can impress my banker with the amount of money I'm stuffing into my account each month.

BTW, most people I talk to are very impressed that I already have 5 years seniority at a major, fly international in widebodies, and I'm not even in my mid-30's yet. While you're "impressing" new people with your skills, I'll be impressing people by showing them my 100% paid for house that I will own before I hit age 40.

A. The flight attendents (female) are not bad at my airline. In fact 3 or 4 of them are really good.

B. My bank account is just fine thank-you very much. I own 10 acres and my driveway is just under a quarter mile long.

C. I stayed in a crash pad next to that god foresaken place (SDF) for a year and it almost made me quit flying. That place has got some really interesting folks driving some really interesting vehicles

 

[Clyde]

A. The flight attendents (female) are not bad at my airline. In fact 3 or 4 of them are really good.

B. My bank account is just fine thank-you very much. I own 10 acres and my driveway is just under a quarter mile long.

C. I stayed in a crash pad next to that god foresaken place (SDF) for a year and it almost made me quit flying. That place has got some really interesting folks driving some really interesting vehicles

A: 3 or 4? That many?

B: That's good. You sound like you have good financial sense.

C: Were you near the airport by chance? That is a quite "interesting" area to visit. It's like Belleville but further south. Go further east and it's like being in a different state altogether. I'm about 45 minutes from the airport.

 

[Clyde]

Now whats wrong with Belleville!!??

kidding!

Late at night in the springtime with the windows open, you can hear the many sounds of pagers going off intermingled with the sound of crickets.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Late at night in the springtime with the windows open, you can hear the many sounds of pagers going off intermingled with the sound of crickets.

Hey guys, remember; Conrad himself lives in Belleville. Im pretty sure I am not seeing you guys on NHRA TODAY every Sunday. So give it a break