Today's Update from NJA

[netjetwife]

i don't understand why some seem to resent the perceived power of a union, yet are perfectly comfortable with all the power residing in management........

Steeler, I think they start with a closed mind and the blind trust follows.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

it's an integration of pilots for the same company.

Yep, and that's why NJI pilots will have every single right and benefit afforded to NJA pilots on Day 1.

You wanted us... You're getting us!

 

[BeeDubya]

I do understand what your saying above, especially the part about the potential confusion in the event of furloughs that stretched past the point of full integration. You mentioned several times that this was to also protect NJI people by giving them recall benefits---here is the part many are having a difficult time with on this board---we never asked for and most didn't want any of this--we were very happy with the way things were and would be happy to take our chances! But things have changed and will continue to do so. ...With the vast majority of us feeling as though this was forced upon us how do you propose to heal the wounds? Do you really think we feel a part of the "family" when we don't even get a say as to sits at the integration table? I've been told by some on here that "I don't get it". .. We get it--we understand the need at times for a union---yours was such a need, unfortunately mandated as a result of mangement actions or inaction. What I'm trying to say is that if you truly want this to be one big happy family do not be so rigid when it comes to your future union brothers on the other side and if this union is going to succeed where so many others have failed the leadership must be held accountable to the rank and file always! At the first perception that it is no longer about the workers but more about control, power and greed it is time for a change. Also as a rank and file member--use caution--separate the smoke from the fire--don't shoot the goose that laid the golden egg--it is very fragile, especially these days.

harley,

I have deleted some of your quote above to save space. I will try to address your questions, but I may not take them in order.

I do not believe that I ever stated that you didn't "get it." You'll have to ask those who made the statement.

I think the best answer I can give is that the whole integration process is the result of a dispute, while commonly called a "single carrier" petition, truly, it was a representational dispute. Essentially, if we had taken our case to the NMB, the argument we would make is that the NJI pilots "are or should have been" included in the Unionized craft and class all along -- since the inception of NJI -- that excluding NJI pilots from the represented class and craft violates the RLA. If the courts had ruled in our favor (or if NJI had always been included in the class and craft), then pilots joining NJI were joining a Unionized carrier.

During the 2005 negotiations, one of our bargaining goals was to resolve the "single carrier" issue, that is to capture the NJI flying. It was part of our "6S" goals -- others included issues you mentioned above; basing, pay, etc. So, to my view, part of the "chance" you mention above that all NJI pilots were taking was that the Union would win our single carrier argument via negotiations or the courts. Either way, the result is that NJI pilots would be included in the Unionized class and craft. The NJI pilot group could have attempted an organizing campaign during that time and elected their own Union. It is likely, though, that would have only have changed, not ended, the representational dispute. The NJI pilots could have attempted to join the Union representing NJA pilots. They did not. So, the chance remaining was to allow the Union and management (and perhaps the courts) resolve the issue. That occurred through negotiations, and now we have the integration upon us. You have to realize that one of the "chances" you were taking was that you would be joining a Unionized company without any other affirmative action on your part.

I think you may have some misconceptions about what is occurring at the "integration table." The integration is not negotiations; it is implementation of an agreed-to process and result. The LOA answers the "what" questions. What remains is the "how" and "when" questions. For example, pay, schedules, vacations, bases, etc., were all decided by the signing of LOA 01-013 in 2007. The remittance of the "recognition notice" put the plan in motion. Now, the only questions remaining are along the lines of "does the company implement the contractually required provisions before Nov 21, 2010, and if so, when and how, exactly." But the outcome as of Nov 21, 2010 is defined. The contract will be in place (with 6 exclusions listed in LOA 01-013) on Nov 21, 2010. There are other questions about what the company will do with its operations. Those are questions for the company and they may ask the Union's opinion, but they will do what they will do.

As far as the integration being about power or greed, I would disagree. It is fundamental to the Union's responsibility to its members. I agree that any perception to the contrary should end. The Union is charged with protecting the member's job. One way we do that is by fighting wrongful termination (on an individual level). On a group level, we do that by enforcing the contract. One important aspect of that agreement is the "scope" clause, which jobs are covered under the agreement. Weak scope language, or scope loopholes, can allow companies to shift work to other sister companies or codeshares whose rates of pay, rules and working conditions are more favorable to the company (although not to the workers), eliminating jobs of those who are represented. We saw in NJI, that if the pilots were not included in the represented craft and class, just such a threat. (Conversely, even our best scope language would present the same threat to NJI pilots, that any change to their aircraft from cabin-attended Gulfstream would eliminate NJI jobs.) To my view, this is about job security and ensuring that no one does to the fractional industry what has happened with our 121 brothers and sisters.

Hope this helps,
Brian

 

[NJA bound]

I saw that, too. I concur with your investigative reporting. You have apparently discovered the type of unions that Harley30344 does promote....

This is one of the funniest things I've witnessed here by far...:laugh:

The lying part is what bothers me about a person, if a guy likes watching his wife bang some other dude, that's his own deal, I could care less, a liar is not a man.

 

[netjetwife]

To clarify, the poetic justice of it is what made me laugh-- not the lying, which I take as seriously as you do, NJAb.

H's extracurricular activities are a separate issue, and he could have said that--at least it would have been true. His profile states "average" endowment, but obviously, a pair of parts are missing. Regarding credibility-- he's really screwed now--but he did it to himself. When you act like an ass, you often end up the butt of jokes. Harley30344 came out swinging and busted himself. That's poetic justice that the FI popcorn crowd shouldn't miss...

http://www.google.com/search?q=harley30344&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

 

[harley30344]

harley,

I have deleted some of your quote above to save space. I will try to address your questions, but I may not take them in order.

I do not believe that I ever stated that you didn't "get it." You'll have to ask those who made the statement.

I think the best answer I can give is that the whole integration process is the result of a dispute, while commonly called a "single carrier" petition, truly, it was a representational dispute. Essentially, if we had taken our case to the NMB, the argument we would make is that the NJI pilots "are or should have been" included in the Unionized craft and class all along -- since the inception of NJI -- that excluding NJI pilots from the represented class and craft violates the RLA. If the courts had ruled in our favor (or if NJI had always been included in the class and craft), then pilots joining NJI were joining a Unionized carrier.

During the 2005 negotiations, one of our bargaining goals was to resolve the "single carrier" issue, that is to capture the NJI flying. It was part of our "6S" goals -- others included issues you mentioned above; basing, pay, etc. So, to my view, part of the "chance" you mention above that all NJI pilots were taking was that the Union would win our single carrier argument via negotiations or the courts. Either way, the result is that NJI pilots would be included in the Unionized class and craft. The NJI pilot group could have attempted an organizing campaign during that time and elected their own Union. It is likely, though, that would have only have changed, not ended, the representational dispute. The NJI pilots could have attempted to join the Union representing NJA pilots. They did not. So, the chance remaining was to allow the Union and management (and perhaps the courts) resolve the issue. That occurred through negotiations, and now we have the integration upon us. You have to realize that one of the "chances" you were taking was that you would be joining a Unionized company without any other affirmative action on your part.

I think you may have some misconceptions about what is occurring at the "integration table." The integration is not negotiations; it is implementation of an agreed-to process and result. The LOA answers the "what" questions. What remains is the "how" and "when" questions. For example, pay, schedules, vacations, bases, etc., were all decided by the signing of LOA 01-013 in 2007. The remittance of the "recognition notice" put the plan in motion. Now, the only questions remaining are along the lines of "does the company implement the contractually required provisions before Nov 21, 2010, and if so, when and how, exactly." But the outcome as of Nov 21, 2010 is defined. The contract will be in place (with 6 exclusions listed in LOA 01-013) on Nov 21, 2010. There are other questions about what the company will do with its operations. Those are questions for the company and they may ask the Union's opinion, but they will do what they will do.

As far as the integration being about power or greed, I would disagree. It is fundamental to the Union's responsibility to its members. I agree that any perception to the contrary should end. The Union is charged with protecting the member's job. One way we do that is by fighting wrongful termination (on an individual level). On a group level, we do that by enforcing the contract. One important aspect of that agreement is the "scope" clause, which jobs are covered under the agreement. Weak scope language, or scope loopholes, can allow companies to shift work to other sister companies or codeshares whose rates of pay, rules and working conditions are more favorable to the company (although not to the workers), eliminating jobs of those who are represented. We saw in NJI, that if the pilots were not included in the represented craft and class, just such a threat. (Conversely, even our best scope language would present the same threat to NJI pilots, that any change to their aircraft from cabin-attended Gulfstream would eliminate NJI jobs.) To my view, this is about job security and ensuring that no one does to the fractional industry what has happened with our 121 brothers and sisters.

Hope this helps,
Brian

You have spent a considerable amount of time answering my questions-Thank you. Your explanations are well thought out and in some cases convincing. I have expressed my views and the views held by many at NJI. As you read the post you will see that I have been personally attacked directly ever since. I made the statement early on that there is a difference in the service culture between the 2 entities and seems as though many took personal offense. It wasn't meant to do that, let me explain what it was meant to do. We all travel on the airlines--how do you like the service? Go to the njasap site and read about the grievances that have been filed and the employees that are being protected by the union. You will find incidents where bad service by an employee is being defended by the union. The point: in the past unions defended poor to mediocre performance employees--this then permeates into the service provided to the customers. Where is the incentive to excel? Is it everyone--no, absolutely not--but it is enough that it affects customer service. Deny all you want but just fly a 121 operator for substantiation. We have NJA crossovers on the I side that cannot even perform their job functions but yet they are protected. Too safe in your job too often leads to poor job performance and complacency. This is what I was and am addressing. You want top shelf customer service---get rid of the bad ones, don't defend them.

Another of the reasons I'm not pro-union is eximplified by this very site. There are too many members that will go after you personally if you disagree with them---true, almost all organizations have zealots at this level but my experience has taught me the numbers are higher in unions and the attackers more rabid. One individual has already tried to link me to rather unsavory sites in an attempt to personally smear me. What is next--is he going to tell me he knows where my kids go to school? BTW--just one last comment to him directly--you are way off base and everyone that knows me will tell you that I am no liar and have never been.

When individuals take others observations personal maybe some soul searching should be done. A statement of perception never covers everyone in the entire organization. But just maybe it will put the light on the cockroaches that need to scurry back under the door and leave. One final comment--I have mentioned control, power and greed permeating through and ruining a union--along these lines comes my question. Njasap has paid their former union a large sum of money--why?

 

[HazMat]

harley I have enjoyed reading your posts. They really have taught me alot about the union process. It bothers me as well that a union will defend a pilot who doesn't deserve the job because of his actions. It just make us all look bad. The attackers make the union look like nothing more than a bunch of bullies. Trully sad you should all be ashamed. Thanks for the education

 

[wolfpackpilot]

ATTENTION EVERYONE



Lets keep these discussions civil and within the bounds of what is prevalent.

While it may seem funny that a screen name appears elsewhere when you Google it... Its NOT OK to assume its the same person. ESPECIALLY when it has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. Regardless if it is the same person or not, they should have the right to keep that part of their life private... A personal life has no reflection on that persons professional career, no matter what you think of it.

My screen name appears 1,432 times and mostly revolves around a WWII fighter Ace who had close ties to the Nazi Party... That isn't me.

Point being, we can agree to disagree and throw insults all day long, but lets keep them in the ball field. I'm sure if you asked my ex-wife what she thought of me, you'd hear words like a sailor on shore leave.


Billy V
aka Wolfpackpilot

 

[Pervis]

harley I have enjoyed reading your posts. They really have taught me alot about the union process. It bothers me as well that a union will defend a pilot who doesn't deserve the job because of his actions. It just make us all look bad. The attackers make the union look like nothing more than a bunch of bullies. Trully sad you should all be ashamed. Thanks for the education

You're going to "learn" about the union process from an outsider looking in? You are bothered that "undeserving" pilots are protected by the union? I would think you'd be just as willing to learn from those working within, and are smart enough to realize there are bad apples in both union and non-union shops. I hope your post is tongue in cheek, but there are those that truely think like that.

I doubt Harley is ashamed, nor are any of us in the Netjets family. Harley seems a bit nervous about something both new and unexpected till recently. RTS promised for a long time NJI would never be a union shop, so I would be nervous too. Just remember who's advantage it is to have division between the ranks. Management has been highly successful across this industry, yet most continue to neglect that fact. I would like to point out a few facts about the upcoming merger.

1) NJI are pay protected and seat locked. They can't be bumped from their equipment or seat. Bad for us, as the most junior captain is 5 years my junior, but I'll survive. Bad for the current SICs, as the will most likely never upgrade in a G (unless the remaining 47 are upgraded in the next 1.5 years). See, it goes both ways. In fact, the current PIC/SIC ratio at NJI is a huge advantage to their majority.

2) Work and rest rules are a huge benefit NJI pilots will enjoy. No doubt the overall CBA will be supplemented by long range rules, but overall there is a huge improvement in QOL the NJI folks will see.

3) Overtime, holiday pay, and after midnight penalties will be huge improvements, and are equally administered. Very little "A" team treatment, which I know now exists at NJI. Yes, some exists at NJA too.

4) Guaranteed wage increases administered equally. Merit based systems seem better to some, but no way they can be administered fairly with well over 3000 pilots.

5) And Harley, we have a 100% satisfaction rate among our customers, so don't even suggest somthing of which you know naught.

These are just a few things Harley and the others can look forward to. Look for the positive-there's a lot more than a half full glass there.

 

[netjetwife]

....As you read the post you will see that I have been personally attacked directly ever since. The attacker crying victim--how typical.. I made the statement early on that there is a difference in the service culture between the 2 entities and seems as though many took personal offense. A convenient memory that ignores all the insults in your prior posts changes none of them. It wasn't meant to do that, let me explain what it was meant to do. Code for I will now insult you in a more reasonable tone. ... Go to the njasap site and read about the grievances that have been filed and the employees that are being protected by the union. You will find incidents where bad service by an employee is being defended by the union. Correction, you will find DFR. In your deep-seated disrespect you are too arrogant to realize that you're ignorant where Unions are concerned. The point: in the past unions defended poor to mediocre performance employees Reality: Unions have to follow labor laws which mandate Duty of Fair Representation for every member. --this then permeates into the service provided to the customers. Where is the incentive to excel? Implied disparagement is still insulting. Is it everyone--no, absolutely not--but it is enough that it affects customer service. Only in your skewed, self-serving opinion. Deny all you want but just fly a 121 operator for substantiation. Another biased remark passed of as "evidence" that is actually nothing more than discrimination and rationalization. ... This is what I was and am addressing. Although you lack the knowledge to do so and your unsought advice to skip due process could lead to lawsuits. You want top shelf customer service--- Your insinuation that it is lacking is unfounded and insulting-- to the entire A side. get rid of the bad ones, don't defend them. NJASAP will continue to operate professionally and legally following DFR rules that provide oversight and equality. Arbitration is binding as the A pilots can attest. Those found to be in error will continue to face remedial action to include suspensions without pay and even termination. The myth that Unions protect bad pilots is perpetrated by the anti-union crowd; it's not a reflection of reality.

Another of the reasons I'm not pro-union is eximplified by this very site. There are too many members that will go after you personally if you disagree with them Another fudspinner... Reality check: when you insult others and attack what they value, those with a backbone will stand their ground. Keep pushing and they will push back. ---true, almost all organizations have zealots at this level but my experience has taught me the numbers are higher in unions and the attackers more rabid. Another blanket, unproven statement = self-serving FUD. In contrast, I point to this forum and the posts of B19, Skanza, and their ilk. One individual has already tried to link me to rather unsavory sites in an attempt to personally smear me. I saw the age on the profile change within minutes during the exchange you had with NJAbound regarding it. It is entirely too coincidental to defy logic and even Juries are instructed to use their common sense, but in the interest of respecting a member's privacy I will drop it --if you will. Saved by the Wolf. ...

When individuals take others observations personal maybe some soul searching should be done. A good example of backpedaling. A statement of perception never covers everyone in the entire organization. Broad-brush biased opinions offered as factual commentary do just that. Fair-minded people qualify their remarks and avoid discriminating ones. But just maybe it will put the light on the cockroaches that need to scurry back under the door and leave. This description of professional pilots has earned you another sign--RABID One final comment--I have mentioned control, power and greed permeating through and ruining a union--along these lines comes my question. Njasap has paid their former union a large sum of money--why?

You're one to talk about permeation... From your first post to this one, the prejudiced comments and unwarranted insults continue nonstop. And talk about trying to smear someone... I'll answer the question, but I protest the way it was couched with your insidious implication. The money was part of the transparent process of leaving the Teamsters who claimed the 1108 assets they were legally entitled to. NJASAP borrowed seed money to get started--along with donations from the NJA pilots. Thanks everyone! It was another in a long line of honorable actions. My family is proud to be associated with this fine group of professionals. NJW

 

[CaveoFalco]

..... But just maybe it will put the light on the cockroaches that need to scurry back under the door and leave. One final comment--I have mentioned control, power and greed permeating through and ruining a union--along these lines comes my question. Njasap has paid their former union a large sum of money--why?

Apparently you have read the NJASAP 411. Get your facts straight prior spewing your BS - it just makes you look stupid. If you bothered to read the NJASAP - IBT separation agreement you would see that NJASAP was able to secure a loan of our own dues money to the tune of $377,305.72 which was to be paid back in 12 installments. This was a loan to start our own Union so we could meet payroll, provide representation, and continue to provide the service NJA pilots have come to expect. The final payment on that loan was made this week thus closing that chapter. Nice try though - don't let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy.

The sad part your total commentary is that you actually do more harm to the profession than good by spouting your lies. Look to the oppression that is the regional airline carrier business. Most of what you said is not true. Pilots that are wrongfully terminated by the Company get reinstated by an arbitrator not the Union, we just argue the case. What that says to me is that you do not trust the judicial process of this country. Not once has the Company attempted to or even been interested in disciplining a pilot over lack of or poor service.

NJI pilots maintain employment by the grace of Mr. Santulli. The bottom 30% of the NJI pilots that are not needed keep their positions by the VSL. By all rights, they should have been gone some time ago. NJI is not operating in the black as you said. That too is a lie.

Do yourself a favor and go read labor history in this country. Start with the slavery of the 1700s and continue on into death, despair, and oppression that Company managers have historically reaped on their employees in the coal, gold, and silver mines of the country. It is a disgusting and embarrassing part of US history. Union busting firms continue to ignore what has been done to the very workers that have built this country. The same thing, with a white collar twinge continues today. Care to work at Colgan for less than $20K per year?

Based on what I have read, the good news for you personally is that if you get laid off (terminated is a better word since you have not contractually protected recall rights) at NJI, I am sure Ford and Harrison would like to have you in their employ. I will look forward to sitting across from the table from you in such a case, where I can tell you what I really think of your anti-worker attitude. Truly sad.

 

[netjetwife]

Yep, and that's why NJI pilots will have every single right and benefit afforded to NJA pilots on Day 1.

As it should be.

You wanted us... You're getting us!

I'm confident that the NJI pilots will receive a friendly welcome befitting their status as professionals in the same industry and counterparts in the same Company. Kudos to you Billy/Wolf for helping with Integration. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing ... If you've read my post above regarding integration attitudes, you'll realize that's a compliment... Good luck to all NJ team members (aka "family") in the challenging days ahead! NJW

 

[Fozzy]

Yep, and that's why NJI pilots will have every single right and benefit afforded to NJA pilots on Day 1.

You wanted us... You're getting us!

Ya but you have not read Section 31 yet have you?
That says that all you NJI guys must buy all the rounds till the next CBA!

I look forward till all this is over with. No more long winded posts about I vs. A sides.

 

[HazMat]

NJW why is Harley not allowed to have an opinion? He doesn't want a union and it was forced on him. Now he has to like it because you say so.

 

[brokeflyer]

NJW why is Harley not allowed to have an opinion? He doesn't want a union and it was forced on him. Now he has to like it because you say so.

nothing is forced on him. He can choose not to participate and no one will ridicule him for it.

Choice is all his. I think what everyone is trying to say is he'll be better off having representation.

I dont really care for unions myself, I think they are expensive and out-dated, but the other option of being at the mercy of idiot managers is worse.