Today's Update from NJA

[ozpilot]

and just to further clarify ..

When the 'A' side pilots fly internationally they also fly First or Business ..

 

[imacdog]

Our crews have been asked to accept coach seats on shorter international airlines (EGGW-EWR for example: ONLY a 7 HOUR flight). Total savings since May now approaching 1 million.

Since we're setting the record straight.

At least you have the option on that flight; I've had the pleasure of having to ride on some 6:30 domestic flights in steerage - good times!

 

[netjetwife]

Uh... two things: OK. I'll hold my post to 2 counter points, also...


1. I was a professional Airline pilot working at Midway... After 9/11 I went unemployed for 4 months, About the same as my husband (AA) then went to work for Comair making less than 19k/year. That's why he passed on AA's "generous" offer to fly their regional plane. Regional pilots are being exploited; they have my sympathy.
I drove a truck to makes ends meet and slept in a crash pad with 12 other guys... Tough times! My husband did the crash pad life in DFW. BTW, these are commiseration, not my counters...

2. You need to live in the present and forget the past. No one cares what your husband made, and no cares I drove a truck.

1) The past was the military lifestyle. I am currently participating in the camaraderie of the frac community. That includes finding common ground with others and standing beside them when they protest FUD. That is what I was doing when I made the comment you quoted.

2) No one cares? I beg to differ. We know what happens to those who forget history; right now there's a poster wanting pilots to go backwards. In this economic climate losing ground is a valid concern. No doubt many NJA pilots/spouses are recalling what they've been thru --as you did. Junior pilots at NJA have been thanking those more senior for making it a place worth coming to. They swap hard-time stories (like yours) and discuss their primary motivation for participating in the Voluntary Measures. To wit, preventing furloughs and a return to the poverty-level wages of their recent past. Good luck to us all, NJW

 

[netjetwife]

Just to set the record straight, the business class or better airline seats have only EVER been for international itineraries....Thanks for the info. I often learn things here at FI... The reasoning has always been to try and diminish the cumulative fatigue problem (and it is substantial, try it sometime) ... Several times I have crossed the country and then the ocean with a teething baby, a rowdy toddler, and a bored young child in tow. Luckily, not all at the same time. One was enough... We have ALWAYS ridden steerage class domestically. I didn't realize that. Our crews have been asked to accept coach seats on shorter international airlines (EGGW-EWR for example: ONLY a 7 HOUR flight). Total savings since May now approaching 1 million. A contribution to be proud of and one I have a greater appreciation for now that I know ...the rest of the story.

Since we're setting the record straight.

I appreciate you taking the time to kindly do so, GSD, and I apologize to the NJI pilots for any offense caused by my seat-fare comments. NJW

 

[netjetwife]

and just to further clarify ..

When the 'A' side pilots fly internationally they also fly First or Business ..

Which does make sense for both pilotgroups. Thanks for adding to my education, Oz... You guys keep this up and no new board member will ever believe that I'm only a wife... Hey, if one of you tells me which cities are EGGW and EWR (Greek to me!) I can throw it out there and maybe I'll be accused of really being an NJI pilot instead of an NJA pilot...for a change of pace... NJW

 

[netjetwife]

harley... If you look back at our history,... Good recap, Reality! Now along comes a massive economic disaster. Yeah, NJA is losing money. Uh, so is NJI, genius. So is NJE. Union AND non-union are losing money. My husband is following the situation closely and he shares this viewpoint. .... They're both suffering. And both "shops" have stepped up to try to help. Remember, the company hasn't come to EITHER side (or NJE, or EJM) and asked anyone for concessions on anything yet. And as I already mentioned, if they wanted to, they could EASILY take away from the non-union shops. I'm sure that thought has occurred to many NJ pilots. There's nothing like an outside enemy (in this case the economy) to draw two groups together.

You, like B19, don't like unions. I get it. But without the whole history, as well as having actually LIVED THRU ALL OF IT, how can you be so quick to declare the union as the root of all problems here? Great point!

I'm sure you'll reply with some anti-union rant that isn't even close to being based in facts about our specific union and relationship with the company. Typical, isn't it... Ah well, some folks just like to stir the pot. Thanks for the reminder. This will be my only reply, as my experience with the likes of B19 and Skanza (and perhaps yourself now) is that you only see what you choose to see, .... no matter what good we may do as a union at NJA, ....

A very good post in a firm but respectful style. Thanks for contributing your time and words of wisdom, Reality... NJW

 

[AvroJockey]

Interesting--there are a lot of bruised arms on here from patting themselves on the back. NJI stepped up--the union did not! Look at the percentages, they don't lie. Please don't give me the garbage line about the older demographics at NJI. It isn't true enough to justify those percentage differences. Also, if you think furloughs aren't coming you better hope the random drug test doesn't get you. Watch around the first of the year and see. Netjets is bleeding out at nearly 2 mil a day and the union will not make any concessions. By the way, only 2 entities aren't in the red--NJI and EJM, both non-union, coincidence?. You are going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

harley30344...regardless of you're participation in any of the voluntary measures I thank you for your support, and the support of our whole pilot group (we are one BTW). However, too assume that NJI did a better job in this whole process, because of the percentages, is somewhat misleading. I'm assuming every pilot on our seniority list did what they could given their circumstance. I highly doubt anyone participated in the process to prove a non-union shop is better the a union shop.

I'm on the bottom of the seniority list, and if a furlough occurs, I'll be the first out the door. However, I'll leave knowing that everything possible was done by the company and the pilots to prevent it, and that's why I decided come here...and believe me, I had a choice to come here.

Also...at what time was the union approached to take concessions? Also...2M a day? Where did you get that figure?

 

[gutshotdraw]

At least you have the option on that flight; I've had the pleasure of having to ride on some 6:30 domestic flights in steerage - good times!

BOS-LAX a couple years back. AA. Coach. Middle seat. Winter headwinds. 6:15. Who said this job isn't glamorous?

 

[netjetwife]

...I'm on the bottom of the seniority list, and if a furlough occurs, I'll be the first out the door. Clearly, this is a rough time for you and your family; lots of NJ folks are pulling for you! However, I'll leave knowing that everything possible was done by the company and the pilots to prevent it, and that's why I decided come here...and believe me, I had a choice to come here. My husband also had other options but the determination of the pilots and possibility of partnership with NJA kept him here and are the reasons that he continues to serve in NJASAP.

Also...at what time was the union approached to take concessions? Also...2M a day? Where did you get that figure?

Avro, had NJASAP been approached, my husband would have participated in the discussions. It did not happen. He also doubts the 2M a day rumor and considering the joint meetings he attends, his opinion is trustworthy. There are numerous avenues of communication for NJ pilots to ask questions of Union leaders. I realize there are confidentiality agreements with specific Company numbers (hint to Harley) but I'm sure NJASAP leaders will share what they can; they're sensitive to the plight of those pilots on the bottom of the VSL. Best wishes to you and yours! NJW

 

[harley30344]

Avro, had NJASAP been approached, my husband would have participated in the discussions. It did not happen. He also doubts the 2M a day rumor and considering the joint meetings he attends, his opinion is trustworthy. There are numerous avenues of communication for NJ pilots to ask questions of Union leaders. I realize there are confidentiality agreements with specific Company numbers (hint to Harley) but I'm sure NJASAP leaders will share what they can; they're sensitive to the plight of those pilots on the bottom of the VSL. Best wishes to you and yours! NJW

I do wish I had all day to ramble on this site but unfortunately I do have to work. The losses are not proprietary information. The financial statements for the first and second quarters have been released, it is PUBLIC information. You just have to know where to look. Whomever sits on these "meetings" should be very aware of those numbers. I'm new to the postings but I will make a promise: no personal attacks. I am also the first to agree, NJA pilots were grossly underpaid and needed more gateways. But what happened is what always happens to union driven companies, greed and powerplays. Name me one major company, in the modern day, where unions have contributed to their longevity. They always get greedy and drive the companies into the ground. It will take several years but they will do the same thing to NETJET. Your right when you say that I don't like unions. I've watched them through the years and I've seen what they eventually do. Power, greed and internal struggles bring them down and take the companies with them. Will njasap be the exception? Maybe but I seriosly doubt it. Do you think the majority of the rank and file on the NJI side want the union? Absolutely not! For whatever reasons most of them hired directly into NJI and liked it there but the union forced themselves upon NJI and their people. Now you want to get together and sing coom-ba-ya. We are not one big happy family! There are major differences in the customer service culture of the two entities. Eventually NJA people will replace NJI in the Gulfstreams and the NJA culture will come with them. I've witnessed it for years, deny it all you want but there is a difference--a big difference. Once that service culture surplants the current one at NJI and the contract comes up for renewal is when the end will become apparent. It is inevitable. One quick example of the union thought process: Recently 5 representatives were selected from NJI to aid in the integration process. Guess how many were chosen by the NJI people--none. Care to guess who chose them? A union steward picked all 5, some of them former union people from the A side. Now I ask you and please be truthful--what kind of message did that send to the future "brothers" on the I side? This is one of many examples I can provide. But as one of the A guys said earlier "we won, you lost, get over it", yes you did--but you will eventually throw the baby out with the bath water. I would love to continue this diatribe but time to work. Fly Safe

 

[imacdog]

Harley, maybe if your pilots organized, you could have voted on who represents you.

BTW, did you take an early out? (Fingers crossed)

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Personally speaking...

This whole argument about who gave what, where or the most is absolutely ludicrous.

Just because the people on the bottom deck of the Titanic got wet first, doesn't mean the people on the polo deck didn't join them!

We're all in this together, for better or worse...

Wolf


And NO.... I'm not calling NetJets the Titanic.

 

[brokeflyer]

I do wish I had all day to ramble on this site but unfortunately I do have to work. The losses are not proprietary information. The financial statements for the first and second quarters have been released, it is PUBLIC information. You just have to know where to look. Whomever sits on these "meetings" should be very aware of those numbers. I'm new to the postings but I will make a promise: no personal attacks. I am also the first to agree, NJA pilots were grossly underpaid and needed more gateways. But what happened is what always happens to union driven companies, greed and powerplays. Name me one major company, in the modern day, where unions have contributed to their longevity. They always get greedy and drive the companies into the ground. It will take several years but they will do the same thing to NETJET. Your right when you say that I don't like unions. I've watched them through the years and I've seen what they eventually do. Power, greed and internal struggles bring them down and take the companies with them. Will njasap be the exception? Maybe but I seriosly doubt it. Do you think the majority of the rank and file on the NJI side want the union? Absolutely not! For whatever reasons most of them hired directly into NJI and liked it there but the union forced themselves upon NJI and their people. Now you want to get together and sing coom-ba-ya. We are not one big happy family! There are major differences in the customer service culture of the two entities. Eventually NJA people will replace NJI in the Gulfstreams and the NJA culture will come with them. I've witnessed it for years, deny it all you want but there is a difference--a big difference. Once that service culture surplants the current one at NJI and the contract comes up for renewal is when the end will become apparent. It is inevitable. One quick example of the union thought process: Recently 5 representatives were selected from NJI to aid in the integration process. Guess how many were chosen by the NJI people--none. Care to guess who chose them? A union steward picked all 5, some of them former union people from the A side. Now I ask you and please be truthful--what kind of message did that send to the future "brothers" on the I side? This is one of many examples I can provide. But as one of the A guys said earlier "we won, you lost, get over it", yes you did--but you will eventually throw the baby out with the bath water. I would love to continue this diatribe but time to work. Fly Safe

once again..someone that dont "get it"

If they would pay me a fair wage and decent work rules, we wouldn't need a union....but they didnt so they got a union on property....I dont like it any more than you.

But, I need to be paid what the job pays....period.

make that happen and unions will go away.

Stop management greed and golden parachutes, and unions will go away...

starting to understand yet?

I can go on if you need some more explanation.

 

[BeeDubya]

One quick example of the union thought process: Recently 5 representatives were selected from NJI to aid in the integration process. Guess how many were chosen by the NJI people--none. Care to guess who chose them? A union steward picked all 5, some of them former union people from the A side. Now I ask you and please be truthful--what kind of message did that send to the future "brothers" on the I side? This is one of many examples I can provide.

harley,

I don't know how long you've been lurking, so this may be old news. I was the Union Steward who picked the NJI pilots to serve on the Working Group (and they were subsequently approved by the elected leadership). The pilots were not chosen to be "representatives" of NJI but to be liaisons or ambassadors. I have been very specific from the beginning that these individuals are not elected nor intended to act like elected representatives. Their missions is to interface between NJASAP and the NJI pilot group -- to disseminate information from the Union to the NJI pilot group and to bring forward the questions and concerns of the NJI pilots they encounter. One is a Union member (a crossover pilot). He was chosen specifically because he is a Union member. As you know and note above, there are cultural and at times "linguistic" differences between the "A" side and the "I" side. He has the advantage of having seen both and therefore can assist in bridging communication gaps and highlighting differences that might not otherwise be apparent. He probably has better insight on which particular practices or methods is better, because he has experienced both.

In all cases, the Union leadership picks its volunteers and working group members through our vetting process. As we move forward integrating the pilot groups, the Union will continue to choose volunteers in this manner.

The Union has made website devoted to the integration and integration questions. We have a team and working group devoted to it (each with its own email address, going to all members). We have opened a section of the message board for NJI pilots to talk with one another and with Union leadership. I am nearly always available to answer questions, or address concerns.

Fraternally,
Brian Ward
NJASAP Steward

 

[brokeflyer]

so in other words harley,

dont comment on things you have no understanding of.

Ask questions first instead of making foolish comments.

 

[harley30344]

once again..someone that dont "get it"

If they would pay me a fair wage and decent work rules, we wouldn't need a union....but they didnt so they got a union on property....I dont like it any more than you.

But, I need to be paid what the job pays....period.

make that happen and unions will go away.

Stop management greed and golden parachutes, and unions will go away...

starting to understand yet?

I can go on if you need some more explanation.

Hey BF -- I do get it and if your looking for me to defend managements actions, their perks and golden parachutes your going to be disappointed. If they had stepped up years ago maybe things would be different now---but if a frog had wings, etc.

Does mangement sometimes force a union or union type action--sure they do. But unfortunately the unions always go to far. Whether it is the UAW or the competition that we saw at the airlines a few years ago for the "best" paid pilots--the problem is they always go too far.

Once NJA got the wage and gateway concessions they wanted why did they continue to push for NJI? Did they ask anyone at NJI if they wanted a union? That is my point--unions always go too far! Common sense becomes uncommon. Greed, power and desire for more evetually takes over. You have most of the pilots and aircraft, from the smallest to the largest yet that wasn't enough. Why?

 

[harley30344]

harley,

I don't know how long you've been lurking, so this may be old news. I was the Union Steward who picked the NJI pilots to serve on the Working Group (and they were subsequently approved by the elected leadership). The pilots were not chosen to be "representatives" of NJI but to be liaisons or ambassadors. What do you think a liason or an ambassador is but a representative--please don't play semantics--I give you more credit than that I have been very specific from the beginning that these individuals are not elected nor intended to act like elected representatives. Their missions is to interface between NJASAP and the NJI pilot group -- to disseminate information from the Union to the NJI pilot group and to bring forward the questions and concerns of the NJI pilots yet you don't want to call them representatives! they encounter. One is a Union member (a crossover pilot). He was chosen specifically because he is a Union member. As you know and note above, there are cultural and at times "linguistic" differences between the "A" side and the "I" side. He has the advantage of having seen both and therefore can assist in bridging communication gaps and highlighting differences that might not otherwise be apparent. He probably has better insight on which particular practices or methods is better, because he has experienced both. This isn't an attack on the people selected as much as the method that was used. In these days of modern communications NJI future "brother" had absolutely NO say--no matter how you want to white wash it, that sent the wrong message. You choose them--ok, at this point why should we have any confidence in your abilities to get the correct information from these people instead of what you want to hear from them? At least if we were allowed some input in the choice we would feel as though you were at least getting accurate information.

In all cases, the Union leadership picks its volunteers and working group members through our vetting process. Not in this case you didn't As we move forward integrating the pilot groups, the Union will continue to choose volunteers in this manner.

The Union has made website devoted to the integration and integration questions. Couldn't this same website have been used to solicit suggestions from NJI people on the selection process? We have a team and working group devoted to it (each with its own email address, going to all members). We have opened a section of the message board for NJI pilots to talk with one another and with Union leadership. I am nearly always available to answer questions, or address concerns.

Fraternally,
Brian Ward
NJASAP Steward

Lurking? That's nice bdub--so much for an intelligent civil conversation and non-personal attacks. As always it is your way or the highway---power--got to have the power! Well I guess I will leave and go check how the non-secret union vote process is going.

 

[NJA bound]

Hey BF -- I do get it and if your looking for me to defend managements actions, their perks and golden parachutes your going to be disappointed. If they had stepped up years ago maybe things would be different now---but if a frog had wings, etc.

Does mangement sometimes force a union or union type action--sure they do. But unfortunately the unions always go to far. Whether it is the UAW or the competition that we saw at the airlines a few years ago for the "best" paid pilots--the problem is they always go too far.

Once NJA got the wage and gateway concessions they wanted why did they continue to push for NJI? Did they ask anyone at NJI if they wanted a union? That is my point--unions always go too far! Common sense becomes uncommon. Greed, power and desire for more evetually takes over. You have most of the pilots and aircraft, from the smallest to the largest yet that wasn't enough. Why?

You're lost and out of line, just get back in bed with your buddy b19!

 

[brokeflyer]

Hey BF -- I do get it and if your looking for me to defend managements actions, their perks and golden parachutes your going to be disappointed. If they had stepped up years ago maybe things would be different now---but if a frog had wings, etc.

Does mangement sometimes force a union or union type action--sure they do. But unfortunately the unions always go to far. Whether it is the UAW or the competition that we saw at the airlines a few years ago for the "best" paid pilots--the problem is they always go too far.

Once NJA got the wage and gateway concessions they wanted why did they continue to push for NJI? Did they ask anyone at NJI if they wanted a union? That is my point--unions always go too far! Common sense becomes uncommon. Greed, power and desire for more evetually takes over. You have most of the pilots and aircraft, from the smallest to the largest yet that wasn't enough. Why?

Job security.

NJI will be better off this way. Now their jobs are protected and they will have much better work rules.

You're welcome.

 

[realityman]

Hey BF -- I do get it and if your looking for me to defend managements actions, their perks and golden parachutes your going to be disappointed. If they had stepped up years ago maybe things would be different now---but if a frog had wings, etc.

Does mangement sometimes force a union or union type action--sure they do. But unfortunately the unions always go to far. Whether it is the UAW or the competition that we saw at the airlines a few years ago for the "best" paid pilots--the problem is they always go too far.

Once NJA got the wage and gateway concessions they wanted why did they continue to push for NJI? Did they ask anyone at NJI if they wanted a union? That is my point--unions always go too far! Common sense becomes uncommon. Greed, power and desire for more evetually takes over. You have most of the pilots and aircraft, from the smallest to the largest yet that wasn't enough. Why?

Sigh. Sorry harley. Are you currently a pilot at NJA? How long have you been here? There is a very large, and very complex, history as to why we insisted on the integration. Much has to do with wanting RTS to follow up on a promise he made to the "A" side pilots a long time ago. There are several other, very good, reasons that this integration was necessary.

But again, it goes back to understanding the history of the whole thing. Right now though, I don't have time for another long post to explain it to you. I'm certain you won't take my word for it, but honestly, it has NOTHING, not one darn thing, to do with union greed. I've been here (at NJA) for almost all of it.

As to the question of will the union go too far in the future? Really, who knows? Maybe, maybe not. So far though, this union has done more groundbreaking things, much in cooperation with company management, than anyone else out there. I think that bodes well for our future. Hey, will NJA have future leadership that RTS did when he started the business, and continue to guide us down the road of prosperity (present circumstances notwithstanding)? It may not be the union that does us in. Your comments along those lines are more biased against our union than maybe is necessary. I've seen plenty of companies (even union shops)done in by poor management. It's really anyone's guess.

I'd be really surprised to find out you're a pilot at NJA based on your feelings towards our union. If you are, why are you working here? Did you think management would successfully rid itself of the union? If we're doomed, why come here? Surely you wouldn't choose a union shop KNOWING that the union would eventually do the company in!

Good night and good luck!