Today's Update from NJA

[wolfpackpilot]

I recall my husband making 28K prior to the 2005 CBA. The memory of how stressful it was for FO families is still sickening... uke:And they were just the poorest of the poor...

Uh... two things:


1. I was a professional Airline pilot working at Midway... After 9/11 I went unemployed for 4 months, then went to work for Comair making less than 19k/year. I drove a truck to makes ends meet and slept in a crash pad with 12 other guys...

2. You need to live in the present and forget the past. No one cares what your husband made, and no cares I drove a truck.

 

[realityman]

harley, not sure what you're getting at? What does union vs. non-union shop have to do with this? If you want to compare, fine. If you look back at our history, you'd see that NJI has ALWAYS paid their pilots WAY more than the NJA side. It's only been the last few years where we've closed the gap (and overall, NJI still makes more).

As for what NJA was making/losing over the years vs. what NJI was making/losing over the years, the interpretation is suspect. During the time leading up to our '05 contract, NJA claimed to be losing money. The books sort of confirmed that. Problem was, when you looked at the books from a different angle, we were actually doing very well for quite a number of years. You see, NJA, NJI, and NJE aren't really separate entities. Only on paper. What was really happening was that NJA was making lots of money. At the same time, they were ramping up operations in Europe. As a start-up operation, NJE hadn't reached the point of being able to make a profit on its own. So the bigwigs at NJ, Inc. shifted our profits to being reinvested into the Europe operation to keep it expanding. When the books were shown to us, all we saw was that NJ, Inc (all the Netjets companies under one umbrella) were losing money. But again, only because Europe's losses were greater than the profits made by NJA. Of course, there was quite a bit of money-shifting going on elsewhere too. As one example, our HPN operation is operated by EJM (another company under the NJ, Inc. umbrella). Every time we passed thru there and needed oil, it was $90 a quart!! Pretty pricey for oil, don't ya think? And we were also charging ourselves some exhorbitant rates for lav services and the like. I paid for this stuff with the multi-service, so I personally saw the prices on this stuff that we were essentially charging ourselves.

Anyway, it got pretty complicated, but long story short, NJA has been making money for a long time.

And interestingly, after we signed our 2005 contract, we started making RECORD PROFITS! They sure weren't shy about showing off after the contract was signed! Hmmmmm........we supposedly went from years of losses to record profits in only a matter of months after the contract was signed? Methinks we were probably making plenty of money prior to the contract, just hiding it very well. Never heard of a turn-around that fast or that extreme after a contract was signed that gave massive compensation increases to a work force like we got.

So, NJA has historically made money, same as NJI. Not sure how you figure a union vs. non-union has altered that.

Now along comes a massive economic disaster. Yeah, NJA is losing money. Uh, so is NJI, genius. So is NJE. Union AND non-union are losing money. Kinda wondering how you figure the union shop is any worse off than the non-union shop here. You know, the company COULD cut pay and benefits right now at NJI. They are, as you like to point out, currently a non-union shop. Nothing to stop em. But they aren't.

My guess as to why? It's not the salary and benefits of the employees that are hurting things. It's the economy.

Anyway, I hope that addresses your non-union vs. union shop bleedout question. They're both suffering. And both "shops" have stepped up to try to help. Remember, the company hasn't come to EITHER side (or NJE, or EJM) and asked anyone for concessions on anything yet. And as I already mentioned, if they wanted to, they could EASILY take away from the non-union shops.

So why is it that you think the union side of things is giving them any heartache?

You, like B19, don't like unions. I get it. But without the whole history, as well as having actually LIVED THRU ALL OF IT, how can you be so quick to declare the union as the root of all problems here?

I'm sure you'll reply with some anti-union rant that isn't even close to being based in facts about our specific union and relationship with the company. Ah well, some folks just like to stir the pot. This will be my only reply, as my experience with the likes of B19 and Skanza (and perhaps yourself now) is that you only see what you choose to see, and based on some hard-wired hate of unions, no matter what good we may do as a union at NJA, you will simply refuse to ever acknowledge it. Good luck with that.

 

[Fozzy]

Those are facts -- argue with those!

Reference please.

 

[netjetwife]

Interesting--there are a lot of bruised arms on here from patting themselves on the back. Excuse me?! I've given credit to all involved--both pilotgroups, management and the other employees. I've read numerous posts doing likewise. NJI stepped up--the union did not! Actually, the majority of the concepts used originated w/NJASAP and they were the ones who reached out (as far back as late last year) to NJ warning of the need for a plan. Look at the percentages, they don't lie. Please don't give me the garbage line about the older demographics at NJI. I don't spout garbage; I use facts and concur with those posted. It isn't true enough to justify those percentage differences. One logically could expect more NJI pilots to be ready for retirement sooner than lesser-paid peers so the similar rate is a good reflection on NJA pilots and their spouses. Also, if you think furloughs aren't coming you better hope the random drug test doesn't get you. Speaking of...:erm: Watch around the first of the year and see. Netjets is bleeding out at nearly 2 mil a day Union folks realize that we're not out of the furlough woods yet, especially those at risk. Your strident tone is not helpful and your discussion of their finances is disrespectful to NJ--truth or rumor. More likely the latter. and the union will not make any concessions. RTS asked for the help he needed in letters to the NJA pilots. The majority, by a wide margin, are stepping up by voluntarily reducing their schedules and taking extra time off in lieu of OT, holiday pay, etc. Indeed, that spirit of cooperation was used by RTS to promote NJ in his media interview. By the way, only 2 entities aren't in the red--NJI and EJM, ... My source, whose opinion can be trusted, doesn't agree with you and pointed out that some of NJI expenses are picked up by NJS (NetJets Support) thereby masking the true situation. You are going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Are you saying that NJA pilots should not be paid a fair salary? A timely reminder is in order: The "A" side was established first and the Company was built on the backs of the NJA pilots and their families who made it possible for the NJI pilots to benefit from the NJ success.

This attitude is rather hypocritical considering that the NJI pilots have been paid much more for far longer. I noted w/interest the post telling us that NJI pilots were now riding coach/economy class to save money, so where were you riding previously? At what cost? The A pilots have always ridden cattle-car style. There is also the long ignored matter of extra costs due to redundant ops centers. As well as the fact that pilots aren't in charge of hiring and have no control over the economy... The previously under-paid NJA pilots have saved the Company millions and millions already. So much in fact, that they deserve huge kudos for putting that aside and answering the call for help. They have paid it forward many times over and it is actually Management that is in need of your lecture. Some there are having a hard time changing their high-spending ways. That, naturally, is upsetting to many NJA pilots since our group has had to live longer than others at NJ on a bare-bones budget (I'm talking qualifying for govt assistance bad!)...while waiting for the IOUs to be paid.

I find your post to be very out of step with the current friendliness between the 2 NJ pilotgroups. Some here may say that I shouldn't have spoken up, but I found it too patently unfair to ignore. I'm a firm believer in giving credit where it's due and you were outright cheating the NJA pilots and their families who have all sacrificed a lot for the good of NJ. Setting the record straight, NJW

 

[gutshotdraw]

I noted w/interest the post telling us that NJI pilots were now riding coach/economy class to save money, so where were you riding previously? At what cost? The A pilots have always ridden cattle-car style.

Just to set the record straight, the business class or better airline seats have only EVER been for international itineraries....like the 14:45 I did to Hong Kong last year. The reasoning has always been to try and diminish the cumulative fatigue problem (and it is substantial, try it sometime) when you airline half way around the world and you have to fly a trip half way back around the world less than 24 hours later. We have ALWAYS ridden steerage class domestically. Our crews have been asked to accept coach seats on shorter international airlines (EGGW-EWR for example: ONLY a 7 HOUR flight). Total savings since May now approaching 1 million.

Since we're setting the record straight.

 

[ozpilot]

and just to further clarify ..

When the 'A' side pilots fly internationally they also fly First or Business ..

 

[imacdog]

Our crews have been asked to accept coach seats on shorter international airlines (EGGW-EWR for example: ONLY a 7 HOUR flight). Total savings since May now approaching 1 million.

Since we're setting the record straight.

At least you have the option on that flight; I've had the pleasure of having to ride on some 6:30 domestic flights in steerage - good times!

 

[netjetwife]

Uh... two things: OK. I'll hold my post to 2 counter points, also...


1. I was a professional Airline pilot working at Midway... After 9/11 I went unemployed for 4 months, About the same as my husband (AA) then went to work for Comair making less than 19k/year. That's why he passed on AA's "generous" offer to fly their regional plane. Regional pilots are being exploited; they have my sympathy.
I drove a truck to makes ends meet and slept in a crash pad with 12 other guys... Tough times! My husband did the crash pad life in DFW. BTW, these are commiseration, not my counters...

2. You need to live in the present and forget the past. No one cares what your husband made, and no cares I drove a truck.

1) The past was the military lifestyle. I am currently participating in the camaraderie of the frac community. That includes finding common ground with others and standing beside them when they protest FUD. That is what I was doing when I made the comment you quoted.

2) No one cares? I beg to differ. We know what happens to those who forget history; right now there's a poster wanting pilots to go backwards. In this economic climate losing ground is a valid concern. No doubt many NJA pilots/spouses are recalling what they've been thru --as you did. Junior pilots at NJA have been thanking those more senior for making it a place worth coming to. They swap hard-time stories (like yours) and discuss their primary motivation for participating in the Voluntary Measures. To wit, preventing furloughs and a return to the poverty-level wages of their recent past. Good luck to us all, NJW

 

[netjetwife]

Just to set the record straight, the business class or better airline seats have only EVER been for international itineraries....Thanks for the info. I often learn things here at FI... The reasoning has always been to try and diminish the cumulative fatigue problem (and it is substantial, try it sometime) ... Several times I have crossed the country and then the ocean with a teething baby, a rowdy toddler, and a bored young child in tow. Luckily, not all at the same time. One was enough... We have ALWAYS ridden steerage class domestically. I didn't realize that. Our crews have been asked to accept coach seats on shorter international airlines (EGGW-EWR for example: ONLY a 7 HOUR flight). Total savings since May now approaching 1 million. A contribution to be proud of and one I have a greater appreciation for now that I know ...the rest of the story.

Since we're setting the record straight.

I appreciate you taking the time to kindly do so, GSD, and I apologize to the NJI pilots for any offense caused by my seat-fare comments. NJW

 

[netjetwife]

and just to further clarify ..

When the 'A' side pilots fly internationally they also fly First or Business ..

Which does make sense for both pilotgroups. Thanks for adding to my education, Oz... You guys keep this up and no new board member will ever believe that I'm only a wife... Hey, if one of you tells me which cities are EGGW and EWR (Greek to me!) I can throw it out there and maybe I'll be accused of really being an NJI pilot instead of an NJA pilot...for a change of pace... NJW

 

[netjetwife]

harley... If you look back at our history,... Good recap, Reality! Now along comes a massive economic disaster. Yeah, NJA is losing money. Uh, so is NJI, genius. So is NJE. Union AND non-union are losing money. My husband is following the situation closely and he shares this viewpoint. .... They're both suffering. And both "shops" have stepped up to try to help. Remember, the company hasn't come to EITHER side (or NJE, or EJM) and asked anyone for concessions on anything yet. And as I already mentioned, if they wanted to, they could EASILY take away from the non-union shops. I'm sure that thought has occurred to many NJ pilots. There's nothing like an outside enemy (in this case the economy) to draw two groups together.

You, like B19, don't like unions. I get it. But without the whole history, as well as having actually LIVED THRU ALL OF IT, how can you be so quick to declare the union as the root of all problems here? Great point!

I'm sure you'll reply with some anti-union rant that isn't even close to being based in facts about our specific union and relationship with the company. Typical, isn't it... Ah well, some folks just like to stir the pot. Thanks for the reminder. This will be my only reply, as my experience with the likes of B19 and Skanza (and perhaps yourself now) is that you only see what you choose to see, .... no matter what good we may do as a union at NJA, ....

A very good post in a firm but respectful style. Thanks for contributing your time and words of wisdom, Reality... NJW

 

[AvroJockey]

Interesting--there are a lot of bruised arms on here from patting themselves on the back. NJI stepped up--the union did not! Look at the percentages, they don't lie. Please don't give me the garbage line about the older demographics at NJI. It isn't true enough to justify those percentage differences. Also, if you think furloughs aren't coming you better hope the random drug test doesn't get you. Watch around the first of the year and see. Netjets is bleeding out at nearly 2 mil a day and the union will not make any concessions. By the way, only 2 entities aren't in the red--NJI and EJM, both non-union, coincidence?. You are going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

harley30344...regardless of you're participation in any of the voluntary measures I thank you for your support, and the support of our whole pilot group (we are one BTW). However, too assume that NJI did a better job in this whole process, because of the percentages, is somewhat misleading. I'm assuming every pilot on our seniority list did what they could given their circumstance. I highly doubt anyone participated in the process to prove a non-union shop is better the a union shop.

I'm on the bottom of the seniority list, and if a furlough occurs, I'll be the first out the door. However, I'll leave knowing that everything possible was done by the company and the pilots to prevent it, and that's why I decided come here...and believe me, I had a choice to come here.

Also...at what time was the union approached to take concessions? Also...2M a day? Where did you get that figure?

 

[gutshotdraw]

At least you have the option on that flight; I've had the pleasure of having to ride on some 6:30 domestic flights in steerage - good times!

BOS-LAX a couple years back. AA. Coach. Middle seat. Winter headwinds. 6:15. Who said this job isn't glamorous?

 

[netjetwife]

...I'm on the bottom of the seniority list, and if a furlough occurs, I'll be the first out the door. Clearly, this is a rough time for you and your family; lots of NJ folks are pulling for you! However, I'll leave knowing that everything possible was done by the company and the pilots to prevent it, and that's why I decided come here...and believe me, I had a choice to come here. My husband also had other options but the determination of the pilots and possibility of partnership with NJA kept him here and are the reasons that he continues to serve in NJASAP.

Also...at what time was the union approached to take concessions? Also...2M a day? Where did you get that figure?

Avro, had NJASAP been approached, my husband would have participated in the discussions. It did not happen. He also doubts the 2M a day rumor and considering the joint meetings he attends, his opinion is trustworthy. There are numerous avenues of communication for NJ pilots to ask questions of Union leaders. I realize there are confidentiality agreements with specific Company numbers (hint to Harley) but I'm sure NJASAP leaders will share what they can; they're sensitive to the plight of those pilots on the bottom of the VSL. Best wishes to you and yours! NJW

 

[harley30344]

Avro, had NJASAP been approached, my husband would have participated in the discussions. It did not happen. He also doubts the 2M a day rumor and considering the joint meetings he attends, his opinion is trustworthy. There are numerous avenues of communication for NJ pilots to ask questions of Union leaders. I realize there are confidentiality agreements with specific Company numbers (hint to Harley) but I'm sure NJASAP leaders will share what they can; they're sensitive to the plight of those pilots on the bottom of the VSL. Best wishes to you and yours! NJW

I do wish I had all day to ramble on this site but unfortunately I do have to work. The losses are not proprietary information. The financial statements for the first and second quarters have been released, it is PUBLIC information. You just have to know where to look. Whomever sits on these "meetings" should be very aware of those numbers. I'm new to the postings but I will make a promise: no personal attacks. I am also the first to agree, NJA pilots were grossly underpaid and needed more gateways. But what happened is what always happens to union driven companies, greed and powerplays. Name me one major company, in the modern day, where unions have contributed to their longevity. They always get greedy and drive the companies into the ground. It will take several years but they will do the same thing to NETJET. Your right when you say that I don't like unions. I've watched them through the years and I've seen what they eventually do. Power, greed and internal struggles bring them down and take the companies with them. Will njasap be the exception? Maybe but I seriosly doubt it. Do you think the majority of the rank and file on the NJI side want the union? Absolutely not! For whatever reasons most of them hired directly into NJI and liked it there but the union forced themselves upon NJI and their people. Now you want to get together and sing coom-ba-ya. We are not one big happy family! There are major differences in the customer service culture of the two entities. Eventually NJA people will replace NJI in the Gulfstreams and the NJA culture will come with them. I've witnessed it for years, deny it all you want but there is a difference--a big difference. Once that service culture surplants the current one at NJI and the contract comes up for renewal is when the end will become apparent. It is inevitable. One quick example of the union thought process: Recently 5 representatives were selected from NJI to aid in the integration process. Guess how many were chosen by the NJI people--none. Care to guess who chose them? A union steward picked all 5, some of them former union people from the A side. Now I ask you and please be truthful--what kind of message did that send to the future "brothers" on the I side? This is one of many examples I can provide. But as one of the A guys said earlier "we won, you lost, get over it", yes you did--but you will eventually throw the baby out with the bath water. I would love to continue this diatribe but time to work. Fly Safe