Today's Update from NJA

[netjetwife]

...You can tell the guy is right out of the Air Force, ....

:erm: I wonder if you realize that a member of the NJASAP Executive Board is a retired Lt Col from the USAF and that at least two others that I can think of have prior military service on their resumes? Fairness, mandates that individuals --and Unions--(hint to Harley) are judged on their own merits. Military service focuses on teamwork and leadership; both are in evidence on the NJASAP EBoard.

 

[Fozzy]

NJW, you said it much better that I could have.

 

[NJA bound]

The piont I was emphasizing, directly out of the military with not enough experience working without union representation to realize the importance of a union.

 

[harley30344]

You gave me no choice harley30344 I couldn't help but google your username to see what would come up, the second to the last entry on the second page was entertaining http://www.google.com/search?q=harley30344&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

That is really good but sorry to disappoint you-- no relations. But you do reinforce one of my earlier post about personal attacks and vindictive nature of the union rank and file if you disagree with them. They don't want to discuss the issues, they would rather shoot the messanger

 

[NJA bound]

That is really good but sorry to disappoint you-- no relations. But you do reinforce one of my earlier post about personal attacks and vindictive nature of the union rank and file if you disagree with them. They don't want to discuss the issues, they would rather shoot the messanger

You can cut the rank and file BS, you don't deserve to even say you're a veteran!

 

[netjetwife]

Part of the problem with unions is there seems to be too many back room non-transparent tacit agreements. Another prejudiced remark that completely ignores the fact that such behavior frequently occurs in management circles. ... If you will notice, most of my questions have gone unanswered since I began posting. I think they've been overshadowed by your anti-union slams. I've gotten a number of wise ass little barbs back from a few simply because I disagree with their philosophy. I'm not here to trade insults--just express opinions and possibly get answers. ...

How self-serving of you, considering that you started the exchange by insulting the NJA pilotgroup and hold prejudice viewpoints which arrogantly blind you to the reality of the situation.

 

[NJA bound]

That is really good but sorry to disappoint you-- no relations. But you do reinforce one of my earlier post about personal attacks and vindictive nature of the union rank and file if you disagree with them. They don't want to discuss the issues, they would rather shoot the messanger

You must have been a he11 of a person to serve with, a liar to. I actually half believed you, gave you the benifit of the doubt, that may have been a different harley on the google search, but it's amazing how blazing fast the age went from 56 to 46.

 

[netjetwife]

The piont I was emphasizing, directly out of the military with not enough experience working without union representation to realize the importance of a union.

I see. Thanks for the explanation. Indeed, former military pilots who joined NJA prior to the 2005 CBA did have the need for a Union made painfully clear. So did their spouses, but even had my husband gone to NJI, I would still have supported the A side on the basis of fairness.

 

[netjetwife]

Busted

You must have been a he11 of a person to serve with, a liar to. I actually half believed you, gave you the benifit of the doubt, that may have been a different harley on the google search, but it's amazing how blazing fast the age went from 56 to 46.

I saw that, too. I concur with your investigative reporting. You have apparently discovered the type of unions that Harley30344 does promote....

This is one of the funniest things I've witnessed here by far...:laugh:

 

[netjetwife]

NJW, you said it much better that I could have.

I am admittedly quick to defend the causes and people I believe in... I misinterpreted NJAbound's post...:0 but the message in mine is still a good one, huh?

We have to excuse NJAb for his unclear post. He was multi-tasking at the time. If he ever gets furloughed he can become a private investigator...

 

[harley30344]

This is a complex issue. The VSL was created through negotiations. That process eventually led to the Integration Letters of Agreement. The issue arose from a dispute of whether or not the NJA/NJI/NJLA pilots constitute a craft and class of a single transportation system for the purposes of collective bargaining. If so recognized, then NJASAP is the bargaining agent for the entire group. If recognized by the company (as opposed to the courts) then the LOAs lay out the integration process, including that the VSL becomes the seniority list for the craft and class. Further, it lays out how the contract applies to all represented pilots.

The LOA gives the company the ability to end the dispute by sending a "recognition notice" and consequently gives time to implement the remainder of the LOA and other provisions of the Contract. Last fall, the company sent the "notice" to the Union that they recognize NJA and NJI as a single transportation system for the purposes of collective bargaining but, per the LOA, will continue to operate separately for the time being. However, by the terms of the LOA, that "recognition notice" moves us (company and union) toward full crew integration. The LOA states that the interim period (between "recognition notice" and full crew integration) ends November 21, 2010, with or without the company sending a final notice.

The Union views seniority and furloughs (including recall rights and seniority maintenance) as negotiated benefits. Essentially, then, we told the company that by furloughing according to the VSL (and assuming we continue down the path of full crew integration) we would recognize NJI pilots' VSL seniority and recall rights. This is consistent with the principle that we are a single transportation system for the purposes of collective bargaining as stated in the company's "recognition notice" and also is indicative of where the parties are ultimately heading. If the company were to not use the VSL for the purposes of furlough/layoff, we would not view affected NJI pilots as "furloughed" but rather as "laid off," which does not protect their right to return at their former senior level. This becomes particularly significant if any layoff occurred prior to the final integration notice and the recall occurred after. By furloughing according to the VSL and the Union's recognition that in so doing we would recognize furloughed NJI pilots' VSL seniority and recall rights, we are allowing a more favorable alternative for NJI pilots than by furloughing out of VSL order.

Hope this helps,
Brian

Once again let me thank you for your professioanl approach to my questions. Seems a shame more on here can't separate honest straight forward observations and questions from accusations, personal attacks and attempts to discredit the questioner.

I do understand what your saying above, especially the part about the potential confusion in the event of furloughs that stretched past the point of full integration. You mentioned several times that this was to also protect NJI people by giving them recall benefits---here is the part many are having a difficult time with on this board---we never asked for and most didn't want any of this--we were very happy with the way things were and would be happy to take our chances! But things have changed and will continue to do so. Many of us on this side have dealt with unions in the past in part 121 opns and felt the sting and betrayal not just by mangement but also by our union "brothers". With the vast majority of us feeling as though this was forced upon us how do you propose to heal the wounds? Do you really think we feel a part of the "family" when we don't even get a say as to sits at the integration table? I've been told by some on here that "I don't get it". Why is it me that doesn't get it? For one brief second imagine that it might be you that doesn't get it. Try to look at things just briefly from the people at NJI's perspective. They were made promises as well--they flew 7 legs a day 7 days a week while your union contract discusiions were underway. They agreed you were underpaid, overworked and needed better work rules and more gates. They agreed! Maybe not with your tactics in some cases but absolutely with you in the principal. But yet now they are being abused by both sides, union and mangement. We can't get overtime pay--it has to be compensatory days. We only flew business class when going outside the US as do you--but now we are 'encouraged" to fly coach on those legs. We get it--we understand the need at times for a union---yours was such a need, unfortunately mandated as a result of mangement actions or inaction. What I'm trying to say is that if you truly want this to be one big happy family do not be so rigid when it comes to your future union brothers on the other side and if this union is going to succeed where so many others have failed the leadership must be held accountable to the rank and file always! At the first perception that it is no longer about the workers but more about control, power and greed it is time for a change. Also as a rank and file member--use caution--separate the smoke from the fire--don't shoot the goose that laid the golden egg--it is very fragile, especially these days.

 

[brokeflyer]

Once again let me thank you for your professioanl approach to my questions. Seems a shame more on here can't separate honest straight forward observations and questions from accusations, personal attacks and attempts to discredit the questioner.

I do understand what your saying above, especially the part about the potential confusion in the event of furloughs that stretched past the point of full integration. You mentioned several times that this was to also protect NJI people by giving them recall benefits---here is the part many are having a difficult time with on this board---we never asked for and most didn't want any of this--we were very happy with the way things were and would be happy to take our chances! But things have changed and will continue to do so. Many of us on this side have dealt with unions in the past in part 121 opns and felt the sting and betrayal not just by mangement but also by our union "brothers". With the vast majority of us feeling as though this was forced upon us how do you propose to heal the wounds? Do you really think we feel a part of the "family" when we don't even get a say as to sits at the integration table? I've been told by some on here that "I don't get it". Why is it me that doesn't get it? For one brief second imagine that it might be you that doesn't get it. Try to look at things just briefly from the people at NJI's perspective. They were made promises as well--they flew 7 legs a day 7 days a week while your union contract discusiions were underway. They agreed you were underpaid, overworked and needed better work rules and more gates. They agreed! Maybe not with your tactics in some cases but absolutely with you in the principal. But yet now they are being abused by both sides, union and mangement. We can't get overtime pay--it has to be compensatory days. We only flew business class when going outside the US as do you--but now we are 'encouraged" to fly coach on those legs. We get it--we understand the need at times for a union---yours was such a need, unfortunately mandated as a result of mangement actions or inaction. What I'm trying to say is that if you truly want this to be one big happy family do not be so rigid when it comes to your future union brothers on the other side and if this union is going to succeed where so many others have failed the leadership must be held accountable to the rank and file always! At the first perception that it is no longer about the workers but more about control, power and greed it is time for a change. Also as a rank and file member--use caution--separate the smoke from the fire--don't shoot the goose that laid the golden egg--it is very fragile, especially these days.

We cant have senior NJA guys furloughed while NJI guys dont. It's the same company....If it was NJA furloughed and flexjet pilots not furloughed then there wouldnt be an issue.

 

[brokeflyer]

Interesting--there are a lot of bruised arms on here from patting themselves on the back. NJI stepped up--the union did not! Look at the percentages, they don't lie. Please don't give me the garbage line about the older demographics at NJI. It isn't true enough to justify those percentage differences. Also, if you think furloughs aren't coming you better hope the random drug test doesn't get you. Watch around the first of the year and see. Netjets is bleeding out at nearly 2 mil a day and the union will not make any concessions. By the way, only 2 entities aren't in the red--NJI and EJM, both non-union, coincidence?. You are going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

Seems a shame more on here can't separate honest straight forward observations and questions from accusations, personal attacks and attempts to discredit the questioner.

the above was your first post. Sorry but I aint gonna give you slack on a attack on me like that....If you want real answers then stop all the bullsh1t attacks and you'll be amazed at the results.

That is b19/skanza gets spanked, they cant have a normal discussion without trying to talk sh1t

 

[steelersrule74]

i don't understand why some seem to resent the perceived power of a union, yet are perfectly comfortable with all the power residing in management........

 

[CA1900]

We cant have senior NJA guys furloughed while NJI guys dont. It's the same company...

That's the key. This isn't a merger, it's an integration of pilots for the same company. That makes a big difference.

 

[netjetwife]

i don't understand why some seem to resent the perceived power of a union, yet are perfectly comfortable with all the power residing in management........

Steeler, I think they start with a closed mind and the blind trust follows.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

it's an integration of pilots for the same company.

Yep, and that's why NJI pilots will have every single right and benefit afforded to NJA pilots on Day 1.

You wanted us... You're getting us!

 

[BeeDubya]

I do understand what your saying above, especially the part about the potential confusion in the event of furloughs that stretched past the point of full integration. You mentioned several times that this was to also protect NJI people by giving them recall benefits---here is the part many are having a difficult time with on this board---we never asked for and most didn't want any of this--we were very happy with the way things were and would be happy to take our chances! But things have changed and will continue to do so. ...With the vast majority of us feeling as though this was forced upon us how do you propose to heal the wounds? Do you really think we feel a part of the "family" when we don't even get a say as to sits at the integration table? I've been told by some on here that "I don't get it". .. We get it--we understand the need at times for a union---yours was such a need, unfortunately mandated as a result of mangement actions or inaction. What I'm trying to say is that if you truly want this to be one big happy family do not be so rigid when it comes to your future union brothers on the other side and if this union is going to succeed where so many others have failed the leadership must be held accountable to the rank and file always! At the first perception that it is no longer about the workers but more about control, power and greed it is time for a change. Also as a rank and file member--use caution--separate the smoke from the fire--don't shoot the goose that laid the golden egg--it is very fragile, especially these days.

harley,

I have deleted some of your quote above to save space. I will try to address your questions, but I may not take them in order.

I do not believe that I ever stated that you didn't "get it." You'll have to ask those who made the statement.

I think the best answer I can give is that the whole integration process is the result of a dispute, while commonly called a "single carrier" petition, truly, it was a representational dispute. Essentially, if we had taken our case to the NMB, the argument we would make is that the NJI pilots "are or should have been" included in the Unionized craft and class all along -- since the inception of NJI -- that excluding NJI pilots from the represented class and craft violates the RLA. If the courts had ruled in our favor (or if NJI had always been included in the class and craft), then pilots joining NJI were joining a Unionized carrier.

During the 2005 negotiations, one of our bargaining goals was to resolve the "single carrier" issue, that is to capture the NJI flying. It was part of our "6S" goals -- others included issues you mentioned above; basing, pay, etc. So, to my view, part of the "chance" you mention above that all NJI pilots were taking was that the Union would win our single carrier argument via negotiations or the courts. Either way, the result is that NJI pilots would be included in the Unionized class and craft. The NJI pilot group could have attempted an organizing campaign during that time and elected their own Union. It is likely, though, that would have only have changed, not ended, the representational dispute. The NJI pilots could have attempted to join the Union representing NJA pilots. They did not. So, the chance remaining was to allow the Union and management (and perhaps the courts) resolve the issue. That occurred through negotiations, and now we have the integration upon us. You have to realize that one of the "chances" you were taking was that you would be joining a Unionized company without any other affirmative action on your part.

I think you may have some misconceptions about what is occurring at the "integration table." The integration is not negotiations; it is implementation of an agreed-to process and result. The LOA answers the "what" questions. What remains is the "how" and "when" questions. For example, pay, schedules, vacations, bases, etc., were all decided by the signing of LOA 01-013 in 2007. The remittance of the "recognition notice" put the plan in motion. Now, the only questions remaining are along the lines of "does the company implement the contractually required provisions before Nov 21, 2010, and if so, when and how, exactly." But the outcome as of Nov 21, 2010 is defined. The contract will be in place (with 6 exclusions listed in LOA 01-013) on Nov 21, 2010. There are other questions about what the company will do with its operations. Those are questions for the company and they may ask the Union's opinion, but they will do what they will do.

As far as the integration being about power or greed, I would disagree. It is fundamental to the Union's responsibility to its members. I agree that any perception to the contrary should end. The Union is charged with protecting the member's job. One way we do that is by fighting wrongful termination (on an individual level). On a group level, we do that by enforcing the contract. One important aspect of that agreement is the "scope" clause, which jobs are covered under the agreement. Weak scope language, or scope loopholes, can allow companies to shift work to other sister companies or codeshares whose rates of pay, rules and working conditions are more favorable to the company (although not to the workers), eliminating jobs of those who are represented. We saw in NJI, that if the pilots were not included in the represented craft and class, just such a threat. (Conversely, even our best scope language would present the same threat to NJI pilots, that any change to their aircraft from cabin-attended Gulfstream would eliminate NJI jobs.) To my view, this is about job security and ensuring that no one does to the fractional industry what has happened with our 121 brothers and sisters.

Hope this helps,
Brian

 

[NJA bound]

I saw that, too. I concur with your investigative reporting. You have apparently discovered the type of unions that Harley30344 does promote....

This is one of the funniest things I've witnessed here by far...:laugh:

The lying part is what bothers me about a person, if a guy likes watching his wife bang some other dude, that's his own deal, I could care less, a liar is not a man.

 

[netjetwife]

To clarify, the poetic justice of it is what made me laugh-- not the lying, which I take as seriously as you do, NJAb.

H's extracurricular activities are a separate issue, and he could have said that--at least it would have been true. His profile states "average" endowment, but obviously, a pair of parts are missing. Regarding credibility-- he's really screwed now--but he did it to himself. When you act like an ass, you often end up the butt of jokes. Harley30344 came out swinging and busted himself. That's poetic justice that the FI popcorn crowd shouldn't miss...

http://www.google.com/search?q=harley30344&hl=en&start=10&sa=N