Today's Update from NJA

[CE750Driver]

I disagree; it looks quite clear to me. Had IBB, which included a fair Integration LOA, not taken place in '07 then NJASAP would now be gearing up for negotiations which very likely could have started early next year... I seriously doubt we would have seen a furlough mitigation package and we'd have been lucky to retain status quo on the contract. We should all be thankful that a strong labor-management working relationship has had a positive influence on how events transpired--in 2007 and recently. NJW

Im sure it would look good to your brain washed mind. Pilots on the road see it alot different.

 

[CaveoFalco]

Im sure it would look good to your brain washed mind. Pilots on the road see it alot different.

Ok - I will bite - how does it look to pilots on the road in a not so scientific survey?

 

[realityman]

Im sure it would look good to your brain washed mind. Pilots on the road see it alot different.

What are you talking about? The folks I've flown with have been in almost complete agreement that the IBB turned out to be a pretty good thing. We all agree there are still some problems, but most seem pretty happy that we aren't going into negotiations in a year or two.

Of course, my results are unscientific as well as yours, but I'm not hearing much (any, really) grousing about IBB right now.

Most of what I've heard in the way of complaints center more around compliance with certain sections of the IBB contract (both with management and the union) rather than any other type of discontent with the package itself.

 

[steelersrule74]

the Stewards at NJASAP do not defend bad behavior. They give pilots accused of such experienced help to present their side of the story. They are by the side of the pilot so no one ever feels threatened by a team of managers on the other side of a table. They make sure management does it's due diligence to gather all the facts and not act on a whim. They provide an opportunity through arbitration for pilots who think they have been unfairly wronged to have their day in court. Without Stewards the company would practice 'guilty until proven innocent'. On the rare occasion when a pilot is terminated they stand beside them and ensure they are treated with dignity and respect.

or, you can choose to go it alone...........good luck.

 

[CE750Driver]

Ok - I will bite - how does it look to pilots on the road in a not so scientific survey?

Realityman too, read the message boards. The gripes I'm talking about are all there. NJI integration- unfair. A and B scale for crew bases- unfair. Some seniority issues. Stuff like that. For the most part people are content. What I see is when the union will not admit for one second that they could have done better. I have laughed heartily at some of the defenses. I for once would just like to hear a ...... yeah we sure F-ed that up. Never have seen it once. Just attacks a the people who bring up the points.

And you all may be comfortable having best friends on opposite sides of the table. Makes me cringe.

 

[netjetwife]

Brainwashed?! Hardly... Those who follow this board closely will recall that I had long decried the low wages of NJ FOs and hated the domicile system. I saw IBB as an opportunity to improve the lives of the NJ pilots and their families and I posted that belief at that time--frequently. I also pointed out that supporting IBB then would encourage Company-Union partnership on projects going forward. IBB passed by a wide margin (low 80s) so obviously my view of it as progress was shared by the vast majority of NJ pilots and their spouses.

 

[CE750Driver]

Brainwashed?! Hardly... Those who follow this board closely will recall that I had long decried the low wages of NJ FOs and hated the domicile system. I saw IBB as an opportunity to improve the lives of the NJ pilots and their families and I posted that belief at that time--frequently. I also pointed out that supporting IBB then would encourage Company-Union partnership on projects going forward. IBB passed by a wide margin (low 80s) so obviously my view of it as progress was shared by the vast majority of NJ pilots and their spouses.

Release the vice grip on your husbands nuts and let him post. I can respect his opinion as a line pilot. Your opinions carry no weight here. With me, or alot of the pilots on this board. But by all means blab on. I know you will.

 

[CaveoFalco]

Realityman too, read the message boards. The gripes I'm talking about are all there. NJI integration- unfair. A and B scale for crew bases- unfair. Some seniority issues. Stuff like that. For the most part people are content. What I see is when the union will not admit for one second that they could have done better. I have laughed heartily at some of the defenses. I for once would just like to hear a ...... yeah we sure F-ed that up. Never have seen it once. Just attacks a the people who bring up the points.

And you all may be comfortable having best friends on opposite sides of the table. Makes me cringe.

NJI LOA virtually guarantees something that was not. The most oft complained about point is the fact that senior pilots have to go GIV to get GV. The Union gets your point. The Company was not going to budge on that fact. The VSL is essentially the same as Allegheny-Mohawk. If you want a staple, it was not going to happen per the courts. I suppose at the end of the day you would have preferred this travel the way of the Single Carrier Petition - no guarantees in that route that the government would have even agreed with the NJASAP position and all could have been lost.

You have no idea who sits on what side of the table, under what circumstances, what is said to who, and who are "friends" and not. The reality is that you have not a clue what you are talking about on most of what you are saying.

 

[netjetwife]

Release the vice grip on your husbands nuts and let him post. Those who don't know who I'm married to won't get the irony involved, but the disrespect of this uncalled for remark is easily noted. I can respect his opinion as a line pilot. The pilotgroup has had plenty of opportunities to do so in a variety of different projects, situations, and forums over the last 5 years. Your opinions carry no weight here. With me, or alot of the pilots on this board. Respectful posters allow others to speak for themselves. But by all means blab on. I know you will.

Being an informed wife makes me an easy target for those so inclined, especially when I debate effectively. And you accuse others of attacking those who bring up points... Discerning readers won't miss the hypocrisy in your posts. In your eyes I've gone from being brainwashed to holding a vice grip on my husband-- in the space of two posts. I'm comfortable leaving it to the readers to decide whose posts carry weight and have validity in the topics debated.

At least my opinions are respectful, consistent...and mainstream...

 

[wolfpackpilot]

The most oft complained about point is the fact that senior pilots have to go GIV to get GV.

Why is that? I just don't follow that gripe. Same pay, same trips, same Blackberry... etc. etc.

 

[netjetwife]

OMG... I AM SO PI**ED!! I typed out a LONG response and then hit "post" and got an error message!!! AAGGGHHH!

I'm sorry I didn't mention it before, but that's why I always copy a post before I hit the submit button. I think it's great that you hung in there and especially that you're taking your own personal time to help others understand Unions, in general, and NJASAP in particular.

I know you're one who does get the irony involved in CE750Driver's suggestion so enjoy the laugh and your days "off".... L/NJW

 

[realityman]

Realityman too, read the message boards. The gripes I'm talking about are all there. NJI integration- unfair. A and B scale for crew bases- unfair. Some seniority issues. Stuff like that. For the most part people are content. What I see is when the union will not admit for one second that they could have done better. I have laughed heartily at some of the defenses. I for once would just like to hear a ...... yeah we sure F-ed that up. Never have seen it once. Just attacks a the people who bring up the points.

And you all may be comfortable having best friends on opposite sides of the table. Makes me cringe.

Well, as I said, a few things with the IBB weren't perfect. I myself was on the union boards pointing out what I perceived as some flaws when we were reviewing the document before the vote. However, most of the issues have either been resolved, or haven't proven to be nearly the large problems that some thought they would.

As for chatter on the message boards, same gripes by the same few people ALL THE TIME! These are the folks who will simply never be happy. I've heard all the complaints about how the integration with the "I" side are unfair. And there has turned out to be absolutely no merit in them whatsoever. We get ALL the co-pilot slots. And we get 1/3 of ALL the captain slots. Yes, even if the only slots are in the GV. How? Because the LOA says we get 1/3 of ALL the captain slots. So if they have 10 openings in the GV, but no current openings in the GIV, they MUST create 3 openings in the GIV anyway for our captains. So regardless of which Gulfstream has the spots (even if it's currently a plane we can't start in) there still MUST be an equivalent number of captain spots made available in the GIV for us. Now, the BIG question is what happens if all the GIV's are phased out before the final integration. How do they make spots in a fleet that doesn't exist anymore? My understanding (it could be wrong, but perhaps BW could clarify it) is that we will get spots following the exact same procedure that current NJI F/O's would have to follow. In other words, if we are able to start F/O's on the GV, then we'll simply start putting our own captains in the GV. However, I find it highly unlikely the GIV's will all be gone prior to the final integration, so I think it's a moot point. And once the integration is complete, getting into ANY Gulfstream will be done the same way any of our other planes are now, by seniority bidding.

Other than that one issue, what's so unfair about the integration LOA? Like I said, same few people on the union boards complaining about anything and everything. And most of theses things turn out to be a non-issue.

Did you follow all the griping from a certain few about how the 18-day reduced schedule would cause all the senior folks to bid over and bump the junior folks off the 18-day? So, have you heard ANYTHING about junior folks being bumped enmasse off the 18-day because of some large influx of senior guys to the 18-day reduced? Hmmmm, seems to have turned out to be a non-issue. I'm sure a few were bumped, but it seems most retained the schedule type they wanted. Ah well, never let what actually happens get in the way of what a few hotheads think will happen. Being angry and disgruntled is always much more fun!

A and B scale for basing? Hardly. Folks keep forgetting that while, yes, we did vote in only 5 bases for crews in 2005, the senior folks stepped up and helped ratify IBB in '07 which eliminated a HUGE part of the HBA system for those that already had it. If anyone currently on the HBA system ever wants to change to a city that is part of the 100 crew bases, they lose the ability, forever, to go back onto the HBA system. So complain all you want, things aren't that far apart on basing as you think, and in fact are getting closer together. But again, those on the union boards are far "happier" complaining about everything than acknowledging things aren't quite as bad as they make it out to be when presenting only one side of the story.

There are some seniority issues. Can't deny it. But you know, EVERYONE had the same opportunity to read over the IBB document prior to ratification, and much of what is being complained about now was not caught by the folks doing the complaining, yet they somehow expected our union leadership to catch EVERY little gotcha. But these same complainers don't seem to wanna step up and volunteer with the union to hep make things better.

Personally, I'm more interested in the blatant crap the company is pulling, such as the complete ignoring of the whole PFP part of the CBA. I'd rather have our union pursuing that matter than wasting time putting out apologies to all those that feel the leadership didn't live up to their expectations.

Again, I don't doubt you've flown with some unhappy folks. But I haven't. I agree there are some areas the union hasn't adequately covered, but maybe it's more of a staffing issue than anything else. We the pilots (as well as the company), keep piling absolute mountains of crap on the union leadership's plate, and then pitch a fit when personal favorite issue du jour isn't covered IMMEDIATELY. Utterly silly.

Sorry to hear you fly with so many unhappy folks. Must be a real drag. With all that's going on I'm personally VERY happy that we won't aren't going to be asked to contribute to (or pay for entirely) our health insurance, or lose our 401K company match, or take a pay cut, until much later. It does tend to put things in perspective a bit for me.

 

[CaveoFalco]

Realityman,
Exactly and well said. The PFP is coming back on NJASAP's plate but a different approach is being contemplated for a lot of different reasons.

 

[netjetwife]

Another reality check from Realityman, giving credit where it's due and calling it like it is. Excellent post, sir! Warm regards, L/NJW

 

[Pervis]

Nevermind

 

[BeeDubya]

Now, the BIG question is what happens if all the GIV's are phased out before the final integration. How do they make spots in a fleet that doesn't exist anymore? My understanding (it could be wrong, but perhaps BW could clarify it) is that we will get spots following the exact same procedure that current NJI F/O's would have to follow.

Not to avoid the question, but if the company phased out all the G-IVs in the next 18 months, I think how NJA pilots transition to NJI would be the least of our worries.

 

[Pervis]

Overall things are turning out quite well, even areas of IBB and LMPP where I was concerned-a couple of shady LOAs and changes that should have required a vote not withstanding. This integration is an area of serious concern though, especially since BO said on this very forum there would be no negotiations. According to the VSL, there is currently a 5+ to 1 PIC/SIC ratio, with or without including NJA crossovers, at NJI.

I am not suggesting the 1/3 and 1/2 ratios in LOA 01-002 and 01-013 have not been met for Capt and SIC slots, although it's hard to say with the earliest transition occuring in the second quarter of 2006 and the earliest VSL available on crewops is from the second quarter of 2007. I am assuming our leadership had access to the current data for compliance purposes. Or did the origional transferies under the superceded LOA 01-002 keep their 3 year seat lock and transition in 2007?

What will we do about salaries? The most junior Capt at NJI is 5 years my junior. Will there be adjustments for those in the "bubble", or will we allienate another demographic? Now don't get your panties in a wad. There is always a group that fares less than others in any new agreement. It would, however, be a real slap for junior folks to be making more than senior pilots, unless we do pay by weight/class again, which would require a flush bid, additional training, etc. Seems it would be cheaper to simply adjust everyone upward. Cheaper than all the retraining costs by far. And please don't say there's always 2016.

 

[harley30344]

Thanks again for the answers I was given. I am the first to admit if I'm wrong and my information on the money to the teamsters was way off base--not at all what I was lead to believe. It is a pleasure to see some of the cooler heads prevail and matters become less emotional. BW you are right, some of the "attackers" could be 15 year olds with too much time on their hand and a few of the others just seem to have huge chips on their shoulders. When most in an organization quit asking questions then we become a bunch of kool-aid drinkers and blind followers. I know a number of people that are on the NJA side--I've known them before they went to work there--they didn't go to work there to join a union, they joined a union because they went to work there. Many of those were not union advocates and had never been yet they saw the need under the circumstances and the union prevailed and conditions improved. I have discussed the 'NJI take over" with them on a number of occasions and it has always been in a civil manner--they, good naturedley accuse me of being a premadonna and I recipricate by calling them a bunch of slaggerts---but we have been friends for years and will continue to be so--I hope. Not a single one of them wants to come to the Gulfstream fleet and they have the seniority to do so--they like what they have right now. I will continue to disagree with those that say the bringing in of NJI was a good and fair thing to all. Most of those at NJI liked things the way they were and had been made promises as well--even as lately as some of the last hires--they were told they would upgrade in 3-5 years and that the union in or out made no difference. I fly with those guys all the time--what about their professions, their families the expectations they were given when they hired into NJI? I will be absolutely truthful-- there is a time and place for unions, there are times they are needed--NJA had that need, NJI didn't. You can recite all the union stuff about labor relations boards, the tacit or real requirement for single carrier status all you want but regardless of how you color it--NJI was taken over in what amounts to a hostile takeover----hostile meaning unwanted. Those with the chips--don't go running off the deep end. But now you want all to hitch up to the wagon and pull in the same direction. OK then one more question--what has the union given to the pilots at NJI that wasn't something that could appear self serving? Name me one time where they have reached out and said--"you know we don't get anything for this but it is the right thing to do for our future brothers. Take the example that I mentioned earlier--take the NJI FOs and grandfather them---allow them to move up within the Gulfstream fleet as they would have prior to the integration announcement--that is such a small thing but would send such a huge message. I'm sure I will hear about how that is impossible but then I ask you, do the people run the union or does the union run the people? This is one of many things that would send a true message to the future brothers. Please look at it from an unbiased perspective---what messages have been sent to the NJI pilots to this point--not in words but in actions?

 

[brokeflyer]

dont worry about it....we're ALL gonna be out of a job next year anyway. The economy has yet to collapse. We're doomed.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

What will we do about salaries? The most junior Capt at NJI is 5 years my junior. Will there be adjustments for those in the "bubble", or will we allienate another demographic? Now don't get your panties in a wad. There is always a group that fares less than others in any new agreement. It would, however, be a real slap for junior folks to be making more than senior pilots, unless we do pay by weight/class again, which would require a flush bid, additional training, etc. Seems it would be cheaper to simply adjust everyone upward. Cheaper than all the retraining costs by far. And please don't say there's always 2016.

The LOA is as clear as any legal document I've ever seen concerning your questions.

Crew member protections following recognition (B.4.c): NJI crew members will not receive a reduction in pay and will receive annual raises commensurate with NJA pilots.


(B.4.a): There will be no system flush or removal of pilots from there positions.


Unless the company raises your wage to match my wage "PRIOR" to final integration, I cannot see how this issue will ever change until the "bubble boys" (myself included) retire. This SCOPE issue came with a price. NJI pilots didn't want it, but it happened. NJASAP wanted to close the door on the Single Carrier and felt this was the best option to get it over with, thus agreeing to an LOA which leaves 3, and 4 year pilots in the left seat of a Gulfstream for their entire career at NetJets. Everyone can claim to be a looser or a winner... It is what it is and its not gonna change. I'm learning to live with it... (thanks OldFart)