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harley,

I have deleted some of your quote above to save space. I will try to address your questions, but I may not take them in order.

I do not believe that I ever stated that you didn't "get it." You'll have to ask those who made the statement.

I think the best answer I can give is that the whole integration process is the result of a dispute, while commonly called a "single carrier" petition, truly, it was a representational dispute. Essentially, if we had taken our case to the NMB, the argument we would make is that the NJI pilots "are or should have been" included in the Unionized craft and class all along -- since the inception of NJI -- that excluding NJI pilots from the represented class and craft violates the RLA. If the courts had ruled in our favor (or if NJI had always been included in the class and craft), then pilots joining NJI were joining a Unionized carrier.

During the 2005 negotiations, one of our bargaining goals was to resolve the "single carrier" issue, that is to capture the NJI flying. It was part of our "6S" goals -- others included issues you mentioned above; basing, pay, etc. So, to my view, part of the "chance" you mention above that all NJI pilots were taking was that the Union would win our single carrier argument via negotiations or the courts. Either way, the result is that NJI pilots would be included in the Unionized class and craft. The NJI pilot group could have attempted an organizing campaign during that time and elected their own Union. It is likely, though, that would have only have changed, not ended, the representational dispute. The NJI pilots could have attempted to join the Union representing NJA pilots. They did not. So, the chance remaining was to allow the Union and management (and perhaps the courts) resolve the issue. That occurred through negotiations, and now we have the integration upon us. You have to realize that one of the "chances" you were taking was that you would be joining a Unionized company without any other affirmative action on your part.

I think you may have some misconceptions about what is occurring at the "integration table." The integration is not negotiations; it is implementation of an agreed-to process and result. The LOA answers the "what" questions. What remains is the "how" and "when" questions. For example, pay, schedules, vacations, bases, etc., were all decided by the signing of LOA 01-013 in 2007. The remittance of the "recognition notice" put the plan in motion. Now, the only questions remaining are along the lines of "does the company implement the contractually required provisions before Nov 21, 2010, and if so, when and how, exactly." But the outcome as of Nov 21, 2010 is defined. The contract will be in place (with 6 exclusions listed in LOA 01-013) on Nov 21, 2010. There are other questions about what the company will do with its operations. Those are questions for the company and they may ask the Union's opinion, but they will do what they will do.

As far as the integration being about power or greed, I would disagree. It is fundamental to the Union's responsibility to its members. I agree that any perception to the contrary should end. The Union is charged with protecting the member's job. One way we do that is by fighting wrongful termination (on an individual level). On a group level, we do that by enforcing the contract. One important aspect of that agreement is the "scope" clause, which jobs are covered under the agreement. Weak scope language, or scope loopholes, can allow companies to shift work to other sister companies or codeshares whose rates of pay, rules and working conditions are more favorable to the company (although not to the workers), eliminating jobs of those who are represented. We saw in NJI, that if the pilots were not included in the represented craft and class, just such a threat. (Conversely, even our best scope language would present the same threat to NJI pilots, that any change to their aircraft from cabin-attended Gulfstream would eliminate NJI jobs.) To my view, this is about job security and ensuring that no one does to the fractional industry what has happened with our 121 brothers and sisters.

Hope this helps,
Brian


You have spent a considerable amount of time answering my questions-Thank you. Your explanations are well thought out and in some cases convincing. I have expressed my views and the views held by many at NJI. As you read the post you will see that I have been personally attacked directly ever since. I made the statement early on that there is a difference in the service culture between the 2 entities and seems as though many took personal offense. It wasn't meant to do that, let me explain what it was meant to do. We all travel on the airlines--how do you like the service? Go to the njasap site and read about the grievances that have been filed and the employees that are being protected by the union. You will find incidents where bad service by an employee is being defended by the union. The point: in the past unions defended poor to mediocre performance employees--this then permeates into the service provided to the customers. Where is the incentive to excel? Is it everyone--no, absolutely not--but it is enough that it affects customer service. Deny all you want but just fly a 121 operator for substantiation. We have NJA crossovers on the I side that cannot even perform their job functions but yet they are protected. Too safe in your job too often leads to poor job performance and complacency. This is what I was and am addressing. You want top shelf customer service---get rid of the bad ones, don't defend them.

Another of the reasons I'm not pro-union is eximplified by this very site. There are too many members that will go after you personally if you disagree with them---true, almost all organizations have zealots at this level but my experience has taught me the numbers are higher in unions and the attackers more rabid. One individual has already tried to link me to rather unsavory sites in an attempt to personally smear me. What is next--is he going to tell me he knows where my kids go to school? BTW--just one last comment to him directly--you are way off base and everyone that knows me will tell you that I am no liar and have never been.

When individuals take others observations personal maybe some soul searching should be done. A statement of perception never covers everyone in the entire organization. But just maybe it will put the light on the cockroaches that need to scurry back under the door and leave. One final comment--I have mentioned control, power and greed permeating through and ruining a union--along these lines comes my question. Njasap has paid their former union a large sum of money--why?
 
harley I have enjoyed reading your posts. They really have taught me alot about the union process. It bothers me as well that a union will defend a pilot who doesn't deserve the job because of his actions. It just make us all look bad. The attackers make the union look like nothing more than a bunch of bullies. Trully sad you should all be ashamed. Thanks for the education
 
ATTENTION EVERYONE



Lets keep these discussions civil and within the bounds of what is prevalent.

While it may seem funny that a screen name appears elsewhere when you Google it... Its NOT OK to assume its the same person. ESPECIALLY when it has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. Regardless if it is the same person or not, they should have the right to keep that part of their life private... A personal life has no reflection on that persons professional career, no matter what you think of it.

My screen name appears 1,432 times and mostly revolves around a WWII fighter Ace who had close ties to the Nazi Party... That isn't me.

Point being, we can agree to disagree and throw insults all day long, but lets keep them in the ball field. I'm sure if you asked my ex-wife what she thought of me, you'd hear words like a sailor on shore leave.


Billy V
aka Wolfpackpilot
 
harley I have enjoyed reading your posts. They really have taught me alot about the union process. It bothers me as well that a union will defend a pilot who doesn't deserve the job because of his actions. It just make us all look bad. The attackers make the union look like nothing more than a bunch of bullies. Trully sad you should all be ashamed. Thanks for the education

You're going to "learn" about the union process from an outsider looking in? You are bothered that "undeserving" pilots are protected by the union? I would think you'd be just as willing to learn from those working within, and are smart enough to realize there are bad apples in both union and non-union shops. I hope your post is tongue in cheek, but there are those that truely think like that.

I doubt Harley is ashamed, nor are any of us in the Netjets family. Harley seems a bit nervous about something both new and unexpected till recently. RTS promised for a long time NJI would never be a union shop, so I would be nervous too. Just remember who's advantage it is to have division between the ranks. Management has been highly successful across this industry, yet most continue to neglect that fact. I would like to point out a few facts about the upcoming merger.

1) NJI are pay protected and seat locked. They can't be bumped from their equipment or seat. Bad for us, as the most junior captain is 5 years my junior, but I'll survive. Bad for the current SICs, as the will most likely never upgrade in a G (unless the remaining 47 are upgraded in the next 1.5 years). See, it goes both ways. In fact, the current PIC/SIC ratio at NJI is a huge advantage to their majority.

2) Work and rest rules are a huge benefit NJI pilots will enjoy. No doubt the overall CBA will be supplemented by long range rules, but overall there is a huge improvement in QOL the NJI folks will see.

3) Overtime, holiday pay, and after midnight penalties will be huge improvements, and are equally administered. Very little "A" team treatment, which I know now exists at NJI. Yes, some exists at NJA too.

4) Guaranteed wage increases administered equally. Merit based systems seem better to some, but no way they can be administered fairly with well over 3000 pilots.

5) And Harley, we have a 100% satisfaction rate among our customers, so don't even suggest somthing of which you know naught.

These are just a few things Harley and the others can look forward to. Look for the positive-there's a lot more than a half full glass there.
 
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....As you read the post you will see that I have been personally attacked directly ever since. The attacker crying victim--how typical..:rolleyes: I made the statement early on that there is a difference in the service culture between the 2 entities and seems as though many took personal offense. A convenient memory that ignores all the insults in your prior posts changes none of them. It wasn't meant to do that, let me explain what it was meant to do. Code for I will now insult you in a more reasonable tone. ... Go to the njasap site and read about the grievances that have been filed and the employees that are being protected by the union. You will find incidents where bad service by an employee is being defended by the union. Correction, you will find DFR. In your deep-seated disrespect you are too arrogant to realize that you're ignorant where Unions are concerned. The point: in the past unions defended poor to mediocre performance employees Reality: Unions have to follow labor laws which mandate Duty of Fair Representation for every member. --this then permeates into the service provided to the customers. Where is the incentive to excel? Implied disparagement is still insulting. Is it everyone--no, absolutely not--but it is enough that it affects customer service. Only in your skewed, self-serving opinion. Deny all you want but just fly a 121 operator for substantiation. Another biased remark passed of as "evidence" that is actually nothing more than discrimination and rationalization. ... This is what I was and am addressing. Although you lack the knowledge to do so and your unsought advice to skip due process could lead to lawsuits. You want top shelf customer service--- Your insinuation that it is lacking is unfounded and insulting-- to the entire A side. get rid of the bad ones, don't defend them. NJASAP will continue to operate professionally and legally following DFR rules that provide oversight and equality. Arbitration is binding as the A pilots can attest. Those found to be in error will continue to face remedial action to include suspensions without pay and even termination. The myth that Unions protect bad pilots is perpetrated by the anti-union crowd; it's not a reflection of reality.

Another of the reasons I'm not pro-union is eximplified by this very site. There are too many members that will go after you personally if you disagree with them Another fudspinner...:rolleyes: Reality check: when you insult others and attack what they value, those with a backbone will stand their ground. Keep pushing and they will push back. ---true, almost all organizations have zealots at this level but my experience has taught me the numbers are higher in unions and the attackers more rabid. Another blanket, unproven statement = self-serving FUD. In contrast, I point to this forum and the posts of B19, Skanza, and their ilk. One individual has already tried to link me to rather unsavory sites in an attempt to personally smear me. I saw the age on the profile change within minutes during the exchange you had with NJAbound regarding it. It is entirely too coincidental to defy logic and even Juries are instructed to use their common sense, but in the interest of respecting a member's privacy I will drop it --if you will. Saved by the Wolf. ...

When individuals take others observations personal maybe some soul searching should be done. A good example of backpedaling. A statement of perception never covers everyone in the entire organization. Broad-brush biased opinions offered as factual commentary do just that. Fair-minded people qualify their remarks and avoid discriminating ones. But just maybe it will put the light on the cockroaches that need to scurry back under the door and leave. This description of professional pilots has earned you another sign--RABID One final comment--I have mentioned control, power and greed permeating through and ruining a union--along these lines comes my question. Njasap has paid their former union a large sum of money--why?

You're one to talk about permeation...:rolleyes: From your first post to this one, the prejudiced comments and unwarranted insults continue nonstop. And talk about trying to smear someone...:mad: I'll answer the question, but I protest the way it was couched with your insidious implication. The money was part of the transparent process of leaving the Teamsters who claimed the 1108 assets they were legally entitled to. NJASAP borrowed seed money to get started--along with donations from the NJA pilots. Thanks everyone! It was another in a long line of honorable actions. My family is proud to be associated with this fine group of professionals. NJW
 
..... But just maybe it will put the light on the cockroaches that need to scurry back under the door and leave. One final comment--I have mentioned control, power and greed permeating through and ruining a union--along these lines comes my question. Njasap has paid their former union a large sum of money--why?

Apparently you have read the NJASAP 411. Get your facts straight prior spewing your BS - it just makes you look stupid. If you bothered to read the NJASAP - IBT separation agreement you would see that NJASAP was able to secure a loan of our own dues money to the tune of $377,305.72 which was to be paid back in 12 installments. This was a loan to start our own Union so we could meet payroll, provide representation, and continue to provide the service NJA pilots have come to expect. The final payment on that loan was made this week thus closing that chapter. Nice try though - don't let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy.

The sad part your total commentary is that you actually do more harm to the profession than good by spouting your lies. Look to the oppression that is the regional airline carrier business. Most of what you said is not true. Pilots that are wrongfully terminated by the Company get reinstated by an arbitrator not the Union, we just argue the case. What that says to me is that you do not trust the judicial process of this country. Not once has the Company attempted to or even been interested in disciplining a pilot over lack of or poor service.

NJI pilots maintain employment by the grace of Mr. Santulli. The bottom 30% of the NJI pilots that are not needed keep their positions by the VSL. By all rights, they should have been gone some time ago. NJI is not operating in the black as you said. That too is a lie.

Do yourself a favor and go read labor history in this country. Start with the slavery of the 1700s and continue on into death, despair, and oppression that Company managers have historically reaped on their employees in the coal, gold, and silver mines of the country. It is a disgusting and embarrassing part of US history. Union busting firms continue to ignore what has been done to the very workers that have built this country. The same thing, with a white collar twinge continues today. Care to work at Colgan for less than $20K per year?

Based on what I have read, the good news for you personally is that if you get laid off (terminated is a better word since you have not contractually protected recall rights) at NJI, I am sure Ford and Harrison would like to have you in their employ. I will look forward to sitting across from the table from you in such a case, where I can tell you what I really think of your anti-worker attitude. Truly sad.
 
Yep, and that's why NJI pilots will have every single right and benefit afforded to NJA pilots on Day 1.

As it should be.

You wanted us... You're getting us!

I'm confident that the NJI pilots will receive a friendly welcome befitting their status as professionals in the same industry and counterparts in the same Company. Kudos to you Billy/Wolf for helping with Integration. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing ...;) If you've read my post above regarding integration attitudes, you'll realize that's a compliment...:) Good luck to all NJ team members (aka "family") in the challenging days ahead! NJW
 
Yep, and that's why NJI pilots will have every single right and benefit afforded to NJA pilots on Day 1.

You wanted us... You're getting us!

Ya but you have not read Section 31 yet have you?
That says that all you NJI guys must buy all the rounds till the next CBA! :eek:

I look forward till all this is over with. No more long winded posts about I vs. A sides.
 
NJW why is Harley not allowed to have an opinion? He doesn't want a union and it was forced on him. Now he has to like it because you say so.
 
NJW why is Harley not allowed to have an opinion? He doesn't want a union and it was forced on him. Now he has to like it because you say so.

nothing is forced on him. He can choose not to participate and no one will ridicule him for it.

Choice is all his. I think what everyone is trying to say is he'll be better off having representation.

I dont really care for unions myself, I think they are expensive and out-dated, but the other option of being at the mercy of idiot managers is worse.
 
HazMat,

He has the right to his opinion, and from what I have been reading he is asking B. W. questions and getting answers. Wolf also pointed out that there is a way for the NJI pilots to get information, ask questions and recieve their answers.

What we all need to look at is the history to this situation. RTS started NJI as a free standing operation. The pilots of NJA thought that that should not be the case. In the 2005 CBA the path was set to either have the company take care of this in house or let the courts decide. RTS made up his mind that the two will become one without the courts getting involved. In other words it is over. Now there might be some people that say one side won and the other lost. The way I see it is if we let this situation come between doing what makes NetJets great we all lose.

I see how one could say that the union was forced on the pilots of NJI. I can also see how the pilots of NJA have been hosed by not having all of the GIV and GV flying under one roof. What happened is in the past and nothing will change that. As somebody once said "it is what it is." It is done, there is no point in getting upset about it now.

The union is made up of many different voices. If one pilot of the 3300 that are on the VSL does not take part then the union is not as strong as it could be. Take the time to ask questions and make the people that are representing or will represent you take note of your voice.
 
You gave me no choice harley30344 I couldn't help but google your username to see what would come up, the second to the last entry on the second page was entertaining http://www.google.com/search?q=harley30344&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

That is really good but sorry to disappoint you-- no relations. But you do reinforce one of my earlier post about personal attacks and vindictive nature of the union rank and file if you disagree with them. They don't want to discuss the issues, they would rather shoot the messanger

I actually half believed you, gave you the benifit of the doubt, that may have been a different harley on the google search, but it's amazing how blazing fast the age went from 56 to 46.

I saw the age on the profile change within minutes during the exchange you had with NJAbound regarding it. It is entirely too coincidental to defy logic and even Juries are instructed to use their common sense, but in the interest of respecting a member's privacy I will drop it --if you will. Saved by the Wolf. ...


You set yourself up to look like a fool Harley.

Thanks for the back up NJW, I will drop it to.
 
NJA your the fool nobody cares about some google search you did with NJW backup. It is meaningless to the discussion here. So let me understand someone disagrees with you and NJW so the reply is to disparage the guy. Pretty sad
 
i don't understand why some seem to resent the perceived power of a union, yet are perfectly comfortable with all the power residing in management........

Well, being that the guy who wrote all, or the most, of the integration language is management now. And the fact that most of our union leaders probably still go to his house to have a beer every now and then, or at least still talk to him on his cell as friends. Management and the Union have never seemed more the same to me. Our a lot of guys I talk to.

I'm not saying there are improprieties going on, just that this is not an ideal situation, and can't end good.

Still funny though, BO doing the integration language, then leaving right after to go to management to oversee the integration. Hmmm. Wonder who got more of what they wanted, the union, or management.

Fuzzy lines there, especially with integration issues.
 
Well, being that the guy who wrote all, or the most, of the integration language is management now. And the fact that most of our union leaders probably still go to his house to have a beer every now and then, or at least still talk to him on his cell as friends. Management and the Union have never seemed more the same to me. Our a lot of guys I talk to.

I'm not saying there are improprieties going on, just that this is not an ideal situation, and can't end good.

Still funny though, BO doing the integration language, then leaving right after to go to management to oversee the integration. Hmmm. Wonder who got more of what they wanted, the union, or management.

Fuzzy lines there, especially with integration issues.

i guess the objective for management is: "As long as I get mine"

sad.....my kids are the ones that you will need to look at.
 
Well, being that the guy who wrote all, or the most, of the integration language is management now. Considering the success of SU and 1108, it isn't surprising that Union leaders would have garnered the notice and respect of NJA. And the fact that most of our union leaders probably still go to his house to have a beer every now and then, What gives you that idea? I don't think any of them live near BO. or at least still talk to him on his cell as friends. You're speculating, right? I believe there are rules governing interaction between NJASAP and Management. My husband tells me that BO and TW are sometimes seen at joint meetings, but they haven't socialized w/Union leadership when he's around. Management and the Union have never seemed more the same to me. Our a lot of guys I talk to. When you're working on joint projects a lot as they are these days, to a large degree that's to be expected. That said, one has only to read the 4-1-1 that just came out to see that NJASAP leaders aren't shy about voicing their opinion and they continue to be strong pilot advocates.

I'm not saying there are improprieties going on, That's good because you'd have no basis for doing so. just that this is not an ideal situation, and can't end good. I beg to differ. In this economic climate it is imperative that all NJ groups work together to overcome a potentially dire situation. The JPMC wouldn't have been possible without that partnership, and we're not out of the woods, yet, by a long shot!

Still funny though, BO doing the integration language, then leaving right after to go to management to oversee the integration. Hmmm. Wonder who got more of what they wanted, the union, or management.

Fuzzy lines there, especially with integration issues.

I disagree; it looks quite clear to me. Had IBB, which included a fair Integration LOA, not taken place in '07 then NJASAP would now be gearing up for negotiations which very likely could have started early next year...:eek: I seriously doubt we would have seen a furlough mitigation package and we'd have been lucky to retain status quo on the contract. We should all be thankful that a strong labor-management working relationship has had a positive influence on how events transpired--in 2007 and recently. NJW
 
NJA your the fool Reminder: Subjective opinion does not equal fact. nobody cares about some google search you did with NJW backup. I did no more than other members might have done. Out of curiosity, I clicked on a link twice --and reported what I saw. It is meaningless to the discussion here. 'Bound and I have already conceded that and agreed to drop it--hint, hint. So let me understand someone disagrees with you and NJW so the reply is to disparage the guy....

If you truly wish to understand the situation, (and be fair) you will not ignore the insults and prejudiced remarks H posted. Yes, it was met with legitimate protests from myself and others. I stood firmly against discrimination and insisted on giving credit where credit is due. With my post quoting Wolf, I tried to end my part in the discussion on a positive note. I'm now joining other conversations.

Fozzy, I second your motion calling for an end to divisive, I vs A posts. And I'm impressed! I didn't realize you were an NJASAP negotiator in training...:p

Wolf, your quick agreement shows recognition of the importance of motivation...which shows leadership possibilities...;)

Willy21, good post with sound advice..:) Here's a point I agree with wholeheartedly: "The way I see it is if we let this situation come between doing what makes NetJets great we all lose". Indeed, the economy is stressful and distracting enough. It's definitely time for moral support and teamwork. I think that path offers the best future and security of all of us! NJW
 
You have spent a considerable amount of time answering my questions-Thank you. Your explanations are well thought out and in some cases convincing. ...Go to the njasap site and read about the grievances that have been filed and the employees that are being protected by the union. You will find incidents where bad service by an employee is being defended by the union. The point: in the past unions defended poor to mediocre performance employees--this then permeates into the service provided to the customers. ...

Another of the reasons I'm not pro-union is eximplified by this very site. There are too many members that will go after you personally if you disagree with them...

... Njasap has paid their former union a large sum of money--why?


OMG... I AM SO PI**ED!! I typed out a LONG response and then hit "post" and got an error message!!! AAGGGHHH! So, here I go again....

harley,

Again, I have not quoted your entire post to save space. I will do my best to answer your questions (assuming I don't get another error message!). You're welcome (from your first sentence).

A few thoughts on grievances. The overwhelming majority of grievances filed are work rules violations and not related to discipline. They are claims like the company failing to pay the appropriate amount of OT, or denying a valid expense. Now, of the grievances we take to arbitration, most of those are discipline or terminations.

The Union has a legal obligation to defend those it represents, called the "duty of fair representation." If the Union fails at its duty, the wronged member can take legal action against the Union. This has to be weighed carefully by the leadership when deciding how far to take a particular grievance. It may lead the Union to defend individuals whose actions do not seem to warrant defense. The other part of the equation is the "just cause" standard, which includes a proper investigatory process. As agreed to in our Contract, the company can discipline pilots with "just cause." This is to ensure that discipline is applied fairly and not wantonly or capriciously. Many times what the Union is defending is not the employee's actions, per se, but the process that has been violated.

It has been my experience that when looking at a particular grievance, the Union leadership will consider the opinions of internal and external counsel, and if they advise that there is a case, factual or procedural, then the leadership will chose to arbitrate. What you may not see on our site, is that arbitration is not automatic in all discipline cases. There have been cases (and I assume there will be again) that the Union does not arbitrate because there is no case to argue.

You mentioned a connection between defending pilots and a reduction in customer service. I'm only aware of one case we've arbitrated that had any connection to customer service, and we lost. I do not think a losing case would move anyone toward poor performance. Quite the opposite, in fact, I think it would encourage pilots to perform customer service better, knowing that we cannot save them from their poor choices.

Clearly by my posts, I do not engage in personal attacks. It's one of the reasons I hate anonymous boards and have chosen to never remain anonymous on any board. You may not like what I say, but you'll know who said it! I think the anonymity emboldens folks to do/say things they never would if their name were attached. I would not assume that anyone who does not identify themselves is who they say they are, so those attacking you may or may not be NJA pilots and/or Union members. They could be bored 15-year-olds for all I know. I will add that you stated that the anonymity of this board has emboldened you to ask questions and opine in ways you would not if your name were attached.

I think your last question was answered by another poster. The repayment was required as part of our separation agreement.

Hope this helps,
Brian
 
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