Today's Update from NJA

[imacdog]

Harley, maybe if your pilots organized, you could have voted on who represents you.

BTW, did you take an early out? (Fingers crossed)

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Personally speaking...

This whole argument about who gave what, where or the most is absolutely ludicrous.

Just because the people on the bottom deck of the Titanic got wet first, doesn't mean the people on the polo deck didn't join them!

We're all in this together, for better or worse...

Wolf


And NO.... I'm not calling NetJets the Titanic.

 

[brokeflyer]

I do wish I had all day to ramble on this site but unfortunately I do have to work. The losses are not proprietary information. The financial statements for the first and second quarters have been released, it is PUBLIC information. You just have to know where to look. Whomever sits on these "meetings" should be very aware of those numbers. I'm new to the postings but I will make a promise: no personal attacks. I am also the first to agree, NJA pilots were grossly underpaid and needed more gateways. But what happened is what always happens to union driven companies, greed and powerplays. Name me one major company, in the modern day, where unions have contributed to their longevity. They always get greedy and drive the companies into the ground. It will take several years but they will do the same thing to NETJET. Your right when you say that I don't like unions. I've watched them through the years and I've seen what they eventually do. Power, greed and internal struggles bring them down and take the companies with them. Will njasap be the exception? Maybe but I seriosly doubt it. Do you think the majority of the rank and file on the NJI side want the union? Absolutely not! For whatever reasons most of them hired directly into NJI and liked it there but the union forced themselves upon NJI and their people. Now you want to get together and sing coom-ba-ya. We are not one big happy family! There are major differences in the customer service culture of the two entities. Eventually NJA people will replace NJI in the Gulfstreams and the NJA culture will come with them. I've witnessed it for years, deny it all you want but there is a difference--a big difference. Once that service culture surplants the current one at NJI and the contract comes up for renewal is when the end will become apparent. It is inevitable. One quick example of the union thought process: Recently 5 representatives were selected from NJI to aid in the integration process. Guess how many were chosen by the NJI people--none. Care to guess who chose them? A union steward picked all 5, some of them former union people from the A side. Now I ask you and please be truthful--what kind of message did that send to the future "brothers" on the I side? This is one of many examples I can provide. But as one of the A guys said earlier "we won, you lost, get over it", yes you did--but you will eventually throw the baby out with the bath water. I would love to continue this diatribe but time to work. Fly Safe

once again..someone that dont "get it"

If they would pay me a fair wage and decent work rules, we wouldn't need a union....but they didnt so they got a union on property....I dont like it any more than you.

But, I need to be paid what the job pays....period.

make that happen and unions will go away.

Stop management greed and golden parachutes, and unions will go away...

starting to understand yet?

I can go on if you need some more explanation.

 

[BeeDubya]

One quick example of the union thought process: Recently 5 representatives were selected from NJI to aid in the integration process. Guess how many were chosen by the NJI people--none. Care to guess who chose them? A union steward picked all 5, some of them former union people from the A side. Now I ask you and please be truthful--what kind of message did that send to the future "brothers" on the I side? This is one of many examples I can provide.

harley,

I don't know how long you've been lurking, so this may be old news. I was the Union Steward who picked the NJI pilots to serve on the Working Group (and they were subsequently approved by the elected leadership). The pilots were not chosen to be "representatives" of NJI but to be liaisons or ambassadors. I have been very specific from the beginning that these individuals are not elected nor intended to act like elected representatives. Their missions is to interface between NJASAP and the NJI pilot group -- to disseminate information from the Union to the NJI pilot group and to bring forward the questions and concerns of the NJI pilots they encounter. One is a Union member (a crossover pilot). He was chosen specifically because he is a Union member. As you know and note above, there are cultural and at times "linguistic" differences between the "A" side and the "I" side. He has the advantage of having seen both and therefore can assist in bridging communication gaps and highlighting differences that might not otherwise be apparent. He probably has better insight on which particular practices or methods is better, because he has experienced both.

In all cases, the Union leadership picks its volunteers and working group members through our vetting process. As we move forward integrating the pilot groups, the Union will continue to choose volunteers in this manner.

The Union has made website devoted to the integration and integration questions. We have a team and working group devoted to it (each with its own email address, going to all members). We have opened a section of the message board for NJI pilots to talk with one another and with Union leadership. I am nearly always available to answer questions, or address concerns.

Fraternally,
Brian Ward
NJASAP Steward

 

[brokeflyer]

so in other words harley,

dont comment on things you have no understanding of.

Ask questions first instead of making foolish comments.

 

[harley30344]

once again..someone that dont "get it"

If they would pay me a fair wage and decent work rules, we wouldn't need a union....but they didnt so they got a union on property....I dont like it any more than you.

But, I need to be paid what the job pays....period.

make that happen and unions will go away.

Stop management greed and golden parachutes, and unions will go away...

starting to understand yet?

I can go on if you need some more explanation.

Hey BF -- I do get it and if your looking for me to defend managements actions, their perks and golden parachutes your going to be disappointed. If they had stepped up years ago maybe things would be different now---but if a frog had wings, etc.

Does mangement sometimes force a union or union type action--sure they do. But unfortunately the unions always go to far. Whether it is the UAW or the competition that we saw at the airlines a few years ago for the "best" paid pilots--the problem is they always go too far.

Once NJA got the wage and gateway concessions they wanted why did they continue to push for NJI? Did they ask anyone at NJI if they wanted a union? That is my point--unions always go too far! Common sense becomes uncommon. Greed, power and desire for more evetually takes over. You have most of the pilots and aircraft, from the smallest to the largest yet that wasn't enough. Why?

 

[harley30344]

harley,

I don't know how long you've been lurking, so this may be old news. I was the Union Steward who picked the NJI pilots to serve on the Working Group (and they were subsequently approved by the elected leadership). The pilots were not chosen to be "representatives" of NJI but to be liaisons or ambassadors. What do you think a liason or an ambassador is but a representative--please don't play semantics--I give you more credit than that I have been very specific from the beginning that these individuals are not elected nor intended to act like elected representatives. Their missions is to interface between NJASAP and the NJI pilot group -- to disseminate information from the Union to the NJI pilot group and to bring forward the questions and concerns of the NJI pilots yet you don't want to call them representatives! they encounter. One is a Union member (a crossover pilot). He was chosen specifically because he is a Union member. As you know and note above, there are cultural and at times "linguistic" differences between the "A" side and the "I" side. He has the advantage of having seen both and therefore can assist in bridging communication gaps and highlighting differences that might not otherwise be apparent. He probably has better insight on which particular practices or methods is better, because he has experienced both. This isn't an attack on the people selected as much as the method that was used. In these days of modern communications NJI future "brother" had absolutely NO say--no matter how you want to white wash it, that sent the wrong message. You choose them--ok, at this point why should we have any confidence in your abilities to get the correct information from these people instead of what you want to hear from them? At least if we were allowed some input in the choice we would feel as though you were at least getting accurate information.

In all cases, the Union leadership picks its volunteers and working group members through our vetting process. Not in this case you didn't As we move forward integrating the pilot groups, the Union will continue to choose volunteers in this manner.

The Union has made website devoted to the integration and integration questions. Couldn't this same website have been used to solicit suggestions from NJI people on the selection process? We have a team and working group devoted to it (each with its own email address, going to all members). We have opened a section of the message board for NJI pilots to talk with one another and with Union leadership. I am nearly always available to answer questions, or address concerns.

Fraternally,
Brian Ward
NJASAP Steward

Lurking? That's nice bdub--so much for an intelligent civil conversation and non-personal attacks. As always it is your way or the highway---power--got to have the power! Well I guess I will leave and go check how the non-secret union vote process is going.

 

[NJA bound]

Hey BF -- I do get it and if your looking for me to defend managements actions, their perks and golden parachutes your going to be disappointed. If they had stepped up years ago maybe things would be different now---but if a frog had wings, etc.

Does mangement sometimes force a union or union type action--sure they do. But unfortunately the unions always go to far. Whether it is the UAW or the competition that we saw at the airlines a few years ago for the "best" paid pilots--the problem is they always go too far.

Once NJA got the wage and gateway concessions they wanted why did they continue to push for NJI? Did they ask anyone at NJI if they wanted a union? That is my point--unions always go too far! Common sense becomes uncommon. Greed, power and desire for more evetually takes over. You have most of the pilots and aircraft, from the smallest to the largest yet that wasn't enough. Why?

You're lost and out of line, just get back in bed with your buddy b19!

 

[brokeflyer]

Hey BF -- I do get it and if your looking for me to defend managements actions, their perks and golden parachutes your going to be disappointed. If they had stepped up years ago maybe things would be different now---but if a frog had wings, etc.

Does mangement sometimes force a union or union type action--sure they do. But unfortunately the unions always go to far. Whether it is the UAW or the competition that we saw at the airlines a few years ago for the "best" paid pilots--the problem is they always go too far.

Once NJA got the wage and gateway concessions they wanted why did they continue to push for NJI? Did they ask anyone at NJI if they wanted a union? That is my point--unions always go too far! Common sense becomes uncommon. Greed, power and desire for more evetually takes over. You have most of the pilots and aircraft, from the smallest to the largest yet that wasn't enough. Why?

Job security.

NJI will be better off this way. Now their jobs are protected and they will have much better work rules.

You're welcome.

 

[realityman]

Hey BF -- I do get it and if your looking for me to defend managements actions, their perks and golden parachutes your going to be disappointed. If they had stepped up years ago maybe things would be different now---but if a frog had wings, etc.

Does mangement sometimes force a union or union type action--sure they do. But unfortunately the unions always go to far. Whether it is the UAW or the competition that we saw at the airlines a few years ago for the "best" paid pilots--the problem is they always go too far.

Once NJA got the wage and gateway concessions they wanted why did they continue to push for NJI? Did they ask anyone at NJI if they wanted a union? That is my point--unions always go too far! Common sense becomes uncommon. Greed, power and desire for more evetually takes over. You have most of the pilots and aircraft, from the smallest to the largest yet that wasn't enough. Why?

Sigh. Sorry harley. Are you currently a pilot at NJA? How long have you been here? There is a very large, and very complex, history as to why we insisted on the integration. Much has to do with wanting RTS to follow up on a promise he made to the "A" side pilots a long time ago. There are several other, very good, reasons that this integration was necessary.

But again, it goes back to understanding the history of the whole thing. Right now though, I don't have time for another long post to explain it to you. I'm certain you won't take my word for it, but honestly, it has NOTHING, not one darn thing, to do with union greed. I've been here (at NJA) for almost all of it.

As to the question of will the union go too far in the future? Really, who knows? Maybe, maybe not. So far though, this union has done more groundbreaking things, much in cooperation with company management, than anyone else out there. I think that bodes well for our future. Hey, will NJA have future leadership that RTS did when he started the business, and continue to guide us down the road of prosperity (present circumstances notwithstanding)? It may not be the union that does us in. Your comments along those lines are more biased against our union than maybe is necessary. I've seen plenty of companies (even union shops)done in by poor management. It's really anyone's guess.

I'd be really surprised to find out you're a pilot at NJA based on your feelings towards our union. If you are, why are you working here? Did you think management would successfully rid itself of the union? If we're doomed, why come here? Surely you wouldn't choose a union shop KNOWING that the union would eventually do the company in!

Good night and good luck!

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

Hey BF -- I do get it and if your looking for me to defend managements actions, their perks and golden parachutes your going to be disappointed. If they had stepped up years ago maybe things would be different now---but if a frog had wings, etc.

Does mangement sometimes force a union or union type action--sure they do. But unfortunately the unions always go to far. Whether it is the UAW or the competition that we saw at the airlines a few years ago for the "best" paid pilots--the problem is they always go too far.

Once NJA got the wage and gateway concessions they wanted why did they continue to push for NJI? Did they ask anyone at NJI if they wanted a union? That is my point--unions always go too far! Common sense becomes uncommon. Greed, power and desire for more evetually takes over. You have most of the pilots and aircraft, from the smallest to the largest yet that wasn't enough. Why?

If a frog had wings then we wouldn't need airplanes and pilots.

The NJI union offer can better be answered by BEEDUBYA since he knows the history of who offered what and when. I believe NJI was offered the chance to bring a union on the property. The 5 Ws I don't recall.
As for the flying of the Gulfstream airframes and NJA comes down to scope. Am I tracking in the correct direction Beedubya?

Harley, are you an outsider from NJI or are you at NJI? The way you write the concerns about NJI leads me to believe you're at NJI. If so, what sit you sitting in? If you're in the rightseat then I could understand your concerns again. Nothing wrong with that at all. You guys will do well over the long haul.
Ask questions, but don't spread thoughtless ideas and/or facts here. PM Beedubya and ask away cause I am sure he'll help you with your question brother.

 

[netjetwife]

...And NO.... I'm not calling NetJets the Titanic.

Didn't even cross my mind; I liked the analogy of all being in this together. Plenty of spouses were on the Titanic...

Well it does appear that Reality called it right, regarding Harley's attitude. According to H, NJA folks ramble, the pilots give inferior service/don't work as hard and the Union is greedy and will ruin the Company. In one post he insulted all the pilots at NJA... They are the Union. So much for his promise of no personal attacks...

In spite of his negative prediction, I still believe that the integration and the future customer service of NJ is in good hands. I don't think that H speaks for the majority of NJI pilots. I think their professionalism can be counted on to recognize that both sides have a lot to offer and there is more progress made when everyone works together.

Anyway, what big family doesn't have its share of black sheep? We're gonna see them on both sides. You guys will just have to drag them along as you move forward creating the best in-house association you can. I have complete confidence that it can be done and fairness, not greed, will continue to prevail. NJW

 

[harley30344]

Job security.

NJI will be better off this way. Now their jobs are protected and they will have much better work rules.

You're welcome.

Sorry--no thanks from me--we didn't need the job security. We had a good thing going. Why not answer my questions instead of just throwing out barbs--BTW--who is b19? Is your idea of job security the fact that we are now tied to a VSL for furlough purposes yet we have no union "protection"? THANKS FOR THE HELP! Why is NJI tied to the VSL for furloughs? There is nothing in the contract or LOAs that state that requirement until of course after full integration. Why--because the union will raise bloody hell if they don't. Power--got to have the power!

 

[harley30344]

OOL and reality man I do appreciate the civil and mature tone of your counters -- hopefully some day you will be in leadership positions for the union. As for njw---I do like the way you jump to conclusions--the union is bad therefore ALL union pilots are bad. Kind of like North Korea is a bad country so therefore all the people in North Korea are bad people. Please don't use such shallow counters-- you insult my intelligence. Nothing personal.

 

[NJA bound]

OOL and reality man I do appreciate the civil and mature tone of your counters -- hopefully some day you will be in leadership positions for the union. As for njw---I do like the way you jump to conclusions--the union is bad therefore ALL union pilots are bad. Kind of like North Korea is a bad country so therefore all the people in North Korea are bad people. Please don't use such shallow counters-- you insult my intelligence. Nothing personal.

Not liking a labor union is insulting your own intelligence