Today's Update from NJA

[QOL_is_great:)]

Hey BF -- I do get it and if your looking for me to defend managements actions, their perks and golden parachutes your going to be disappointed. If they had stepped up years ago maybe things would be different now---but if a frog had wings, etc.

Does mangement sometimes force a union or union type action--sure they do. But unfortunately the unions always go to far. Whether it is the UAW or the competition that we saw at the airlines a few years ago for the "best" paid pilots--the problem is they always go too far.

Once NJA got the wage and gateway concessions they wanted why did they continue to push for NJI? Did they ask anyone at NJI if they wanted a union? That is my point--unions always go too far! Common sense becomes uncommon. Greed, power and desire for more evetually takes over. You have most of the pilots and aircraft, from the smallest to the largest yet that wasn't enough. Why?

If a frog had wings then we wouldn't need airplanes and pilots.

The NJI union offer can better be answered by BEEDUBYA since he knows the history of who offered what and when. I believe NJI was offered the chance to bring a union on the property. The 5 Ws I don't recall.
As for the flying of the Gulfstream airframes and NJA comes down to scope. Am I tracking in the correct direction Beedubya?

Harley, are you an outsider from NJI or are you at NJI? The way you write the concerns about NJI leads me to believe you're at NJI. If so, what sit you sitting in? If you're in the rightseat then I could understand your concerns again. Nothing wrong with that at all. You guys will do well over the long haul.
Ask questions, but don't spread thoughtless ideas and/or facts here. PM Beedubya and ask away cause I am sure he'll help you with your question brother.

 

[netjetwife]

...And NO.... I'm not calling NetJets the Titanic.

Didn't even cross my mind; I liked the analogy of all being in this together. Plenty of spouses were on the Titanic...

Well it does appear that Reality called it right, regarding Harley's attitude. According to H, NJA folks ramble, the pilots give inferior service/don't work as hard and the Union is greedy and will ruin the Company. In one post he insulted all the pilots at NJA... They are the Union. So much for his promise of no personal attacks...

In spite of his negative prediction, I still believe that the integration and the future customer service of NJ is in good hands. I don't think that H speaks for the majority of NJI pilots. I think their professionalism can be counted on to recognize that both sides have a lot to offer and there is more progress made when everyone works together.

Anyway, what big family doesn't have its share of black sheep? We're gonna see them on both sides. You guys will just have to drag them along as you move forward creating the best in-house association you can. I have complete confidence that it can be done and fairness, not greed, will continue to prevail. NJW

 

[harley30344]

Job security.

NJI will be better off this way. Now their jobs are protected and they will have much better work rules.

You're welcome.

Sorry--no thanks from me--we didn't need the job security. We had a good thing going. Why not answer my questions instead of just throwing out barbs--BTW--who is b19? Is your idea of job security the fact that we are now tied to a VSL for furlough purposes yet we have no union "protection"? THANKS FOR THE HELP! Why is NJI tied to the VSL for furloughs? There is nothing in the contract or LOAs that state that requirement until of course after full integration. Why--because the union will raise bloody hell if they don't. Power--got to have the power!

 

[harley30344]

OOL and reality man I do appreciate the civil and mature tone of your counters -- hopefully some day you will be in leadership positions for the union. As for njw---I do like the way you jump to conclusions--the union is bad therefore ALL union pilots are bad. Kind of like North Korea is a bad country so therefore all the people in North Korea are bad people. Please don't use such shallow counters-- you insult my intelligence. Nothing personal.

 

[NJA bound]

OOL and reality man I do appreciate the civil and mature tone of your counters -- hopefully some day you will be in leadership positions for the union. As for njw---I do like the way you jump to conclusions--the union is bad therefore ALL union pilots are bad. Kind of like North Korea is a bad country so therefore all the people in North Korea are bad people. Please don't use such shallow counters-- you insult my intelligence. Nothing personal.

Not liking a labor union is insulting your own intelligence

 

[harley30344]

Not liking a labor union is insulting your own intelligence

come on dude--not just wise a_s little barbs--you can do better--

 

[BeeDubya]

Lurking? That's nice bdub--so much for an intelligent civil conversation and non-personal attacks. As always it is your way or the highway---power--got to have the power! Well I guess I will leave and go check how the non-secret union vote process is going.

harley,

"Lurking" was not meant as an insult. It's a common message board term (accross various message baords) for a person who reads but does not post. It was actually meant to be respectful. I did not want to assume that because you have few posts and most were today or yesterday that you are also new to these boards.

I do not think a liaison or ambassador chosen by the Union is a representative of pilots the Union does not yet reprepresent, in the sense that I do not assume that the statements made by the Working Group members is "representative" or "speaking for" the NJI pilots. I do believe they have something to add to the process, including the ability to relay information from those they encounter, knowing those views may not be held by all.

Frankly, it would have been ideal to have a vote of NJI pilots for electing their own representatives. The Union is bound by our bylaws, Department of Labor, the Railway Labor Act, LMRDA (sorry, can't remember the full name), etc. This affects how we spend money (specifically for non-members) and how we conduct elections (including timeframes). At the start of this process, we did not have access to all NJI pilots and there is no requirement/law for NJI to give us access, so we were at the mercy of NJI pilots providing information at their discretion. We were advised that these limitations (legal and otherwise) would pose a significant hinderance to conducting any election, if it would even be possible -- primarily, how dues money is spent. Additionally, with contact information for less than 50% of the NJI pilots, the results of any election would be rightly questionable.

The idea of using a "survey" funtion on the message board is not a bad one. Due to getting all the various stakeholders to sign off on the idea of having a message board in the first place (again, based on all the above restricting agencies and rules), it took several months to get the boards up and running. Current participation rates on the boards would also call into question the representative nature of the results of any survey.

Since there did not seem to be viable "election" alternatives, the Union making the selection seemed preferable to having NO NJI pilots involved.

Why do you assume we did not use our vetting process in this case? The vetting process includes a recommendation, followed by approval by the elected leadership. Both occurred here.

BTW, you can call me Brian.

 

[brokeflyer]

Sorry--no thanks from me--we didn't need the job security. We had a good thing going. Why not answer my questions instead of just throwing out barbs--BTW--who is b19? Is your idea of job security the fact that we are now tied to a VSL for furlough purposes yet we have no union "protection"? THANKS FOR THE HELP! Why is NJI tied to the VSL for furloughs? There is nothing in the contract or LOAs that state that requirement until of course after full integration. Why--because the union will raise bloody hell if they don't. Power--got to have the power!

well i guess you're fcked then. I tried to explain it but you dont wanna hear it.

go find another job then and quit crying. As for me, my union makes sure management dont fck me over.

If I was paid a fair wage and fairwork rules non of this would happen. Go talk to management about your problems, that is what started all this, not us pilots.

cya around

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

Sorry--no thanks from me--we didn't need the job security. We had a good thing going. Why not answer my questions instead of just throwing out barbs--BTW--who is b19? Is your idea of job security the fact that we are now tied to a VSL for furlough purposes yet we have no union "protection"? THANKS FOR THE HELP! Why is NJI tied to the VSL for furloughs? There is nothing in the contract or LOAs that state that requirement until of course after full integration. Why--because the union will raise bloody hell if they don't. Power--got to have the power!

I guess you do work for NJI from your above post. Again, I said in another post that's cool.
Hey, Harley I want to pass a little FYI that is the truth. On the current seniority list I am sitting at a given number. I moved to that number by seeing roughly 225 pilots ahead of me leave.
When the VSL came out I saw my number climb to a number above my new hire number. Here's the truth part brother; I am fine with that. In the long run the merger of the two departments will be a good event. It'll offer opportunities to all members. You may think that it'll allow me to fly a Gulfstream; I can tell you that it'll will never happen. I have way to many pilots up ahead of me that will be seeing those planes. Besides, big plane = big dragbag.
Have you taken the time to call NJASAP to request answers to your questions? I am correct in saying that you're going to tell me that you'll not receive answers or it's a waste of time. Give it a try and you may be surprised. Good Luck!!

 

[harley30344]

harley,

"Lurking" was not meant as an insult. It's a common message board term (accross various message baords) for a person who reads but does not post. It was actually meant to be respectful. I did not want to assume that because you have few posts and most were today or yesterday that you are also new to these boards.

I do not think a liaison or ambassador chosen by the Union is a representative of pilots the Union does not yet reprepresent, in the sense that I do not assume that the statements made by the Working Group members is "representative" or "speaking for" the NJI pilots. I do believe they have something to add to the process, including the ability to relay information from those they encounter, knowing those views may not be held by all.

Frankly, it would have been ideal to have a vote of NJI pilots for electing their own representatives. The Union is bound by our bylaws, Department of Labor, the Railway Labor Act, LMRDA (sorry, can't remember the full name), etc. This affects how we spend money (specifically for non-members) and how we conduct elections (including timeframes). At the start of this process, we did not have access to all NJI pilots and there is no requirement/law for NJI to give us access, so we were at the mercy of NJI pilots providing information at their discretion. We were advised that these limitations (legal and otherwise) would pose a significant hinderance to conducting any election, if it would even be possible -- primarily, how dues money is spent. Additionally, with contact information for less than 50% of the NJI pilots, the results of any election would be rightly questionable.

The idea of using a "survey" funtion on the message board is not a bad one. Due to getting all the various stakeholders to sign off on the idea of having a message board in the first place (again, based on all the above restricting agencies and rules), it took several months to get the boards up and running. Current participation rates on the boards would also call into question the representative nature of the results of any survey.

Since there did not seem to be viable "election" alternatives, the Union making the selection seemed preferable to having NO NJI pilots involved.

Why do you assume we did not use our vetting process in this case? The vetting process includes a recommendation, followed by approval by the elected leadership. Both occurred here.

BTW, you can call me Brian.

Brian (thanks),
I appreciate the civil nature of your feedback but I think we will have to agree to disagree on the current direction the 2 entities are taking. As njw earlier referred to some as "blacksheep" I will use that term--they are on both sides--NJA and NJI. Because someone doesn't want a union doesn't a blacksheep make them--under most circumstances we would probably find much common ground. On the NJI side if your a pro union guy it doesn't make you a blacksheep but yet even on the NJI side if your against unions you are labeled a "blacksheep" by NJA people. Why? It clearly shows the differences in the thought processes. I would be happy to share my name with you but unfortunately due to those differences in the thought processes and the vindictive nature I have experienced from unoin rank and file in the past I will pass. Have a good night

 

[BeeDubya]

The NJI union offer can better be answered by BEEDUBYA since he knows the history of who offered what and when. I believe NJI was offered the chance to bring a union on the property. The 5 Ws I don't recall.
As for the flying of the Gulfstream airframes and NJA comes down to scope. Am I tracking in the correct direction Beedubya?

PM Beedubya and ask away cause I am sure he'll help you with your question brother.

I'm always happy to help.

Over the years there have been various discussions about organizing, mostly ad hoc, between NJI pilots and various NJA Union volunteers/leaders. Obviously, nothing materialized.

 

[BeeDubya]

Brian (thanks),
I appreciate the civil nature of your feedback but I think we will have to agree to disagree on the current direction the 2 entities are taking. As njw earlier referred to some as "blacksheep" I will use that term--they are on both sides--NJA and NJI. Because someone doesn't want a union doesn't a blacksheep make them--under most circumstances we would probably find much common ground. On the NJI side if your a pro union guy it doesn't make you a blacksheep but yet even on the NJI side if your against unions you are labeled a "blacksheep" by NJA people. Why? It clearly shows the differences in the thought processes. I would be happy to share my name with you but unfortunately due to those differences in the thought processes and the vindictive nature I have experienced from unoin rank and file in the past I will pass. Have a good night

harley,

I don't want to put words into njw's mouth (or post), but I did not interpret her to mean pilots who were anti-Union were blacksheep. I took it to mean that those who do not represent the company and fellow pilots well are blacksheep. I certainly believe all are entitled to their own opinions.

 

[harley30344]

I guess you do work for NJI from your above post. Again, I said in another post that's cool.
Hey, Harley I want to pass a little FYI that is the truth. On the current seniority list I am sitting at a given number. I moved to that number by seeing roughly 225 pilots ahead of me leave.
When the VSL came out I saw my number climb to a number above my new hire number. Here's the truth part brother; I am fine with that. In the long run the merger of the two departments will be a good event. It'll offer opportunities to all members. You may think that it'll allow me to fly a Gulfstream; I can tell you that it'll will never happen. I have way to many pilots up ahead of me that will be seeing those planes. Besides, big plane = big dragbag.
Have you taken the time to call NJASAP to request answers to your questions? I am correct in saying that you're going to tell me that you'll not receive answers or it's a waste of time. Give it a try and you may be surprised. Good Luck!!

Part of the problem with unions is there seems to be too many back room non-transparent tacit agreements. So I prefer to ask my questions in a public forum so all can see the answers. If you will notice, most of my questions have gone unanswered since I began posting. I've gotten a number of wise ass little barbs back from a few simply because I disagree with their philosophy. I'm not here to trade insults--just express opinions and possibly get answers.

I will start with a simple question: Why is NJI currently tied to the VSL for potential furloughs without any union "protection" when there is absolutely no binding agreement that mandates it? Have the union reps addressed this issue? Is this fair and right? The union could express opinions on this and allow the company to manage as the financial numbers dictate in regards to this issue. I'm sure someone will say that the union had nothing to do with this policy---but have they let the company know they won't press the issue if it is done? To simplify: Don't hold the NJI rank and file to the VSL when they are not in the union. You want to send a clear unambiguous signal to your future brothers that you truly want to be one big happy family, here is the opportunity. Let the company know that you don't want NJI held to the VSL for furloughs until they are actually a part of the union. This is one of a number of issues that could be addressed in such a way to bring us into the fold in a manner that benefits all in the long run. But will the short term take precedence over the long term? I would bet on it!

 

[brokeflyer]

because there would be a problem if they furlough NJA guys and NJI guys who have been here a year get to keep their jobs......that is a problem.

so yes, it is fair and it is right. Would it be fair if they furloughed a 5 yr ultra capt and kept a 2 yr GIV FO?.....im sure you would think that is fair but it's not.

Only fair way to do it is date of hire. Being IN or OUT of the union dont have anything to do with it. You would be better off IN the union because the company can just fire you for no reason at all, regardless of the seniority list.

So, your welcome

 

[BeeDubya]

I will start with a simple question: Why is NJI currently tied to the VSL for potential furloughs without any union "protection" when there is absolutely no binding agreement that mandates it? Have the union reps addressed this issue? Is this fair and right? The union could express opinions on this and allow the company to manage as the financial numbers dictate in regards to this issue. I'm sure someone will say that the union had nothing to do with this policy---but have they let the company know they won't press the issue if it is done? To simplify: Don't hold the NJI rank and file to the VSL when they are not in the union. You want to send a clear unambiguous signal to your future brothers that you truly want to be one big happy family, here is the opportunity. Let the company know that you don't want NJI held to the VSL for furloughs until they are actually a part of the union. This is one of a number of issues that could be addressed in such a way to bring us into the fold in a manner that benefits all in the long run. But will the short term take precedence over the long term? I would bet on it!

This is a complex issue. The VSL was created through negotiations. That process eventually led to the Integration Letters of Agreement. The issue arose from a dispute of whether or not the NJA/NJI/NJLA pilots constitute a craft and class of a single transportation system for the purposes of collective bargaining. If so recognized, then NJASAP is the bargaining agent for the entire group. If recognized by the company (as opposed to the courts) then the LOAs lay out the integration process, including that the VSL becomes the seniority list for the craft and class. Further, it lays out how the contract applies to all represented pilots.

The LOA gives the company the ability to end the dispute by sending a "recognition notice" and consequently gives time to implement the remainder of the LOA and other provisions of the Contract. Last fall, the company sent the "notice" to the Union that they recognize NJA and NJI as a single transportation system for the purposes of collective bargaining but, per the LOA, will continue to operate separately for the time being. However, by the terms of the LOA, that "recognition notice" moves us (company and union) toward full crew integration. The LOA states that the interim period (between "recognition notice" and full crew integration) ends November 21, 2010, with or without the company sending a final notice.

The Union views seniority and furloughs (including recall rights and seniority maintenance) as negotiated benefits. Essentially, then, we told the company that by furloughing according to the VSL (and assuming we continue down the path of full crew integration) we would recognize NJI pilots' VSL seniority and recall rights. This is consistent with the principle that we are a single transportation system for the purposes of collective bargaining as stated in the company's "recognition notice" and also is indicative of where the parties are ultimately heading. If the company were to not use the VSL for the purposes of furlough/layoff, we would not view affected NJI pilots as "furloughed" but rather as "laid off," which does not protect their right to return at their former senior level. This becomes particularly significant if any layoff occurred prior to the final integration notice and the recall occurred after. By furloughing according to the VSL and the Union's recognition that in so doing we would recognize furloughed NJI pilots' VSL seniority and recall rights, we are allowing a more favorable alternative for NJI pilots than by furloughing out of VSL order.

Hope this helps,
Brian

 

[gutshotdraw]

Harley, I would also suggest that if a furlough is necessary (and I don't expect one to occur before the end of the year, if ever), integration might be accelerated due to the very restrictive outsourcing language in the furlough section of the contract. Consequently, any furlough would have to occur via the VSL so that NJI pilots would be protected throughout the process.

Thoughts Brian?

 

[BeeDubya]

Harley, I would also suggest that if a furlough is necessary (and I don't expect one to occur before the end of the year, if ever), integration might be accelerated due to the very restrictive outsourcing language in the furlough section of the contract. Consequently, any furlough would have to occur via the VSL so that NJI pilots would be protected throughout the process.

Thoughts Brian?

The scenario you pose is reasonable.

 

[NJA bound]

because there would be a problem if they furlough NJA guys and NJI guys who have been here a year get to keep their jobs......that is a problem.

so yes, it is fair and it is right. Would it be fair if they furloughed a 5 yr ultra capt and kept a 2 yr GIV FO?.....im sure you would think that is fair but it's not.

Only fair way to do it is date of hire. Being IN or OUT of the union dont have anything to do with it. You would be better off IN the union because the company can just fire you for no reason at all, regardless of the seniority list.

So, your welcome

You hit the nail on the head, that is his problem. You can tell the guy is right out of the Air Force, having never flown for anyone but NJI and the AF, trash talking unions, he obviously has not done enuogh research on why a union is nessessary.

 

[netjetwife]

harley,...I did not interpret her to mean pilots who were anti-Union were blacksheep. I took it to mean that those who do not represent the company and fellow pilots well are blacksheep. ...

Correct. Actually, the term can designate any person (pilot, other NJ employee, family member) that doesn't reflect the values and opinions of the overall group. Noting black sheep on both sides is an observation of attitudes toward integration. The majority of comments on the message boards (here and NJA) have been calling for fairness and expressing the belief that both pilotgroups are professionals who share the same vision and work ethic. The focus is on common-ground. In contrast, a few "black sheep" on the A side want to see all non-union pilots stapled on the bottom regardless of their date of hire. Likewise, claiming that NJI pilots have a superior culture is also unfair and counterproductive, thus out of step, with the "can do, let's work together" attitude of mutually respectful professionals.

Harley's posts are a deviant from the norm. Example: "There are major differences in the customer service culture of the two entities. Eventually NJA people will replace NJI in the Gulfstreams and the NJA culture will come with them. I've witnessed it for years, deny it all you want but there is a difference--a big difference. Once that service culture surplants the current one at NJI ...is when the end will become apparent."

That remark is prejudiced and insulting. Here’s your sign, Harley. BLACK SHEEP

 

[NJA bound]

come on dude--not just wise a_s little barbs--you can do better--

You gave me no choice harley30344 I couldn't help but google your username to see what would come up, the second to the last entry on the second page was entertaining http://www.google.com/search?q=harley30344&hl=en&start=10&sa=N