Today's Update from NJA

[netjetwife]

...You can tell the guy is right out of the Air Force, ....

:erm: I wonder if you realize that a member of the NJASAP Executive Board is a retired Lt Col from the USAF and that at least two others that I can think of have prior military service on their resumes? Fairness, mandates that individuals --and Unions--(hint to Harley) are judged on their own merits. Military service focuses on teamwork and leadership; both are in evidence on the NJASAP EBoard.

 

[Fozzy]

NJW, you said it much better that I could have.

 

[NJA bound]

The piont I was emphasizing, directly out of the military with not enough experience working without union representation to realize the importance of a union.

 

[harley30344]

You gave me no choice harley30344 I couldn't help but google your username to see what would come up, the second to the last entry on the second page was entertaining http://www.google.com/search?q=harley30344&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

That is really good but sorry to disappoint you-- no relations. But you do reinforce one of my earlier post about personal attacks and vindictive nature of the union rank and file if you disagree with them. They don't want to discuss the issues, they would rather shoot the messanger

 

[NJA bound]

That is really good but sorry to disappoint you-- no relations. But you do reinforce one of my earlier post about personal attacks and vindictive nature of the union rank and file if you disagree with them. They don't want to discuss the issues, they would rather shoot the messanger

You can cut the rank and file BS, you don't deserve to even say you're a veteran!

 

[netjetwife]

Part of the problem with unions is there seems to be too many back room non-transparent tacit agreements. Another prejudiced remark that completely ignores the fact that such behavior frequently occurs in management circles. ... If you will notice, most of my questions have gone unanswered since I began posting. I think they've been overshadowed by your anti-union slams. I've gotten a number of wise ass little barbs back from a few simply because I disagree with their philosophy. I'm not here to trade insults--just express opinions and possibly get answers. ...

How self-serving of you, considering that you started the exchange by insulting the NJA pilotgroup and hold prejudice viewpoints which arrogantly blind you to the reality of the situation.

 

[NJA bound]

That is really good but sorry to disappoint you-- no relations. But you do reinforce one of my earlier post about personal attacks and vindictive nature of the union rank and file if you disagree with them. They don't want to discuss the issues, they would rather shoot the messanger

You must have been a he11 of a person to serve with, a liar to. I actually half believed you, gave you the benifit of the doubt, that may have been a different harley on the google search, but it's amazing how blazing fast the age went from 56 to 46.

 

[netjetwife]

The piont I was emphasizing, directly out of the military with not enough experience working without union representation to realize the importance of a union.

I see. Thanks for the explanation. Indeed, former military pilots who joined NJA prior to the 2005 CBA did have the need for a Union made painfully clear. So did their spouses, but even had my husband gone to NJI, I would still have supported the A side on the basis of fairness.

 

[netjetwife]

Busted

You must have been a he11 of a person to serve with, a liar to. I actually half believed you, gave you the benifit of the doubt, that may have been a different harley on the google search, but it's amazing how blazing fast the age went from 56 to 46.

I saw that, too. I concur with your investigative reporting. You have apparently discovered the type of unions that Harley30344 does promote....

This is one of the funniest things I've witnessed here by far...:laugh:

 

[netjetwife]

NJW, you said it much better that I could have.

I am admittedly quick to defend the causes and people I believe in... I misinterpreted NJAbound's post...:0 but the message in mine is still a good one, huh?

We have to excuse NJAb for his unclear post. He was multi-tasking at the time. If he ever gets furloughed he can become a private investigator...

 

[harley30344]

This is a complex issue. The VSL was created through negotiations. That process eventually led to the Integration Letters of Agreement. The issue arose from a dispute of whether or not the NJA/NJI/NJLA pilots constitute a craft and class of a single transportation system for the purposes of collective bargaining. If so recognized, then NJASAP is the bargaining agent for the entire group. If recognized by the company (as opposed to the courts) then the LOAs lay out the integration process, including that the VSL becomes the seniority list for the craft and class. Further, it lays out how the contract applies to all represented pilots.

The LOA gives the company the ability to end the dispute by sending a "recognition notice" and consequently gives time to implement the remainder of the LOA and other provisions of the Contract. Last fall, the company sent the "notice" to the Union that they recognize NJA and NJI as a single transportation system for the purposes of collective bargaining but, per the LOA, will continue to operate separately for the time being. However, by the terms of the LOA, that "recognition notice" moves us (company and union) toward full crew integration. The LOA states that the interim period (between "recognition notice" and full crew integration) ends November 21, 2010, with or without the company sending a final notice.

The Union views seniority and furloughs (including recall rights and seniority maintenance) as negotiated benefits. Essentially, then, we told the company that by furloughing according to the VSL (and assuming we continue down the path of full crew integration) we would recognize NJI pilots' VSL seniority and recall rights. This is consistent with the principle that we are a single transportation system for the purposes of collective bargaining as stated in the company's "recognition notice" and also is indicative of where the parties are ultimately heading. If the company were to not use the VSL for the purposes of furlough/layoff, we would not view affected NJI pilots as "furloughed" but rather as "laid off," which does not protect their right to return at their former senior level. This becomes particularly significant if any layoff occurred prior to the final integration notice and the recall occurred after. By furloughing according to the VSL and the Union's recognition that in so doing we would recognize furloughed NJI pilots' VSL seniority and recall rights, we are allowing a more favorable alternative for NJI pilots than by furloughing out of VSL order.

Hope this helps,
Brian

Once again let me thank you for your professioanl approach to my questions. Seems a shame more on here can't separate honest straight forward observations and questions from accusations, personal attacks and attempts to discredit the questioner.

I do understand what your saying above, especially the part about the potential confusion in the event of furloughs that stretched past the point of full integration. You mentioned several times that this was to also protect NJI people by giving them recall benefits---here is the part many are having a difficult time with on this board---we never asked for and most didn't want any of this--we were very happy with the way things were and would be happy to take our chances! But things have changed and will continue to do so. Many of us on this side have dealt with unions in the past in part 121 opns and felt the sting and betrayal not just by mangement but also by our union "brothers". With the vast majority of us feeling as though this was forced upon us how do you propose to heal the wounds? Do you really think we feel a part of the "family" when we don't even get a say as to sits at the integration table? I've been told by some on here that "I don't get it". Why is it me that doesn't get it? For one brief second imagine that it might be you that doesn't get it. Try to look at things just briefly from the people at NJI's perspective. They were made promises as well--they flew 7 legs a day 7 days a week while your union contract discusiions were underway. They agreed you were underpaid, overworked and needed better work rules and more gates. They agreed! Maybe not with your tactics in some cases but absolutely with you in the principal. But yet now they are being abused by both sides, union and mangement. We can't get overtime pay--it has to be compensatory days. We only flew business class when going outside the US as do you--but now we are 'encouraged" to fly coach on those legs. We get it--we understand the need at times for a union---yours was such a need, unfortunately mandated as a result of mangement actions or inaction. What I'm trying to say is that if you truly want this to be one big happy family do not be so rigid when it comes to your future union brothers on the other side and if this union is going to succeed where so many others have failed the leadership must be held accountable to the rank and file always! At the first perception that it is no longer about the workers but more about control, power and greed it is time for a change. Also as a rank and file member--use caution--separate the smoke from the fire--don't shoot the goose that laid the golden egg--it is very fragile, especially these days.

 

[brokeflyer]

Once again let me thank you for your professioanl approach to my questions. Seems a shame more on here can't separate honest straight forward observations and questions from accusations, personal attacks and attempts to discredit the questioner.

I do understand what your saying above, especially the part about the potential confusion in the event of furloughs that stretched past the point of full integration. You mentioned several times that this was to also protect NJI people by giving them recall benefits---here is the part many are having a difficult time with on this board---we never asked for and most didn't want any of this--we were very happy with the way things were and would be happy to take our chances! But things have changed and will continue to do so. Many of us on this side have dealt with unions in the past in part 121 opns and felt the sting and betrayal not just by mangement but also by our union "brothers". With the vast majority of us feeling as though this was forced upon us how do you propose to heal the wounds? Do you really think we feel a part of the "family" when we don't even get a say as to sits at the integration table? I've been told by some on here that "I don't get it". Why is it me that doesn't get it? For one brief second imagine that it might be you that doesn't get it. Try to look at things just briefly from the people at NJI's perspective. They were made promises as well--they flew 7 legs a day 7 days a week while your union contract discusiions were underway. They agreed you were underpaid, overworked and needed better work rules and more gates. They agreed! Maybe not with your tactics in some cases but absolutely with you in the principal. But yet now they are being abused by both sides, union and mangement. We can't get overtime pay--it has to be compensatory days. We only flew business class when going outside the US as do you--but now we are 'encouraged" to fly coach on those legs. We get it--we understand the need at times for a union---yours was such a need, unfortunately mandated as a result of mangement actions or inaction. What I'm trying to say is that if you truly want this to be one big happy family do not be so rigid when it comes to your future union brothers on the other side and if this union is going to succeed where so many others have failed the leadership must be held accountable to the rank and file always! At the first perception that it is no longer about the workers but more about control, power and greed it is time for a change. Also as a rank and file member--use caution--separate the smoke from the fire--don't shoot the goose that laid the golden egg--it is very fragile, especially these days.

We cant have senior NJA guys furloughed while NJI guys dont. It's the same company....If it was NJA furloughed and flexjet pilots not furloughed then there wouldnt be an issue.

 

[brokeflyer]

Interesting--there are a lot of bruised arms on here from patting themselves on the back. NJI stepped up--the union did not! Look at the percentages, they don't lie. Please don't give me the garbage line about the older demographics at NJI. It isn't true enough to justify those percentage differences. Also, if you think furloughs aren't coming you better hope the random drug test doesn't get you. Watch around the first of the year and see. Netjets is bleeding out at nearly 2 mil a day and the union will not make any concessions. By the way, only 2 entities aren't in the red--NJI and EJM, both non-union, coincidence?. You are going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

Seems a shame more on here can't separate honest straight forward observations and questions from accusations, personal attacks and attempts to discredit the questioner.

the above was your first post. Sorry but I aint gonna give you slack on a attack on me like that....If you want real answers then stop all the bullsh1t attacks and you'll be amazed at the results.

That is b19/skanza gets spanked, they cant have a normal discussion without trying to talk sh1t

 

[steelersrule74]

i don't understand why some seem to resent the perceived power of a union, yet are perfectly comfortable with all the power residing in management........

 

[CA1900]

We cant have senior NJA guys furloughed while NJI guys dont. It's the same company...

That's the key. This isn't a merger, it's an integration of pilots for the same company. That makes a big difference.

 

[netjetwife]

i don't understand why some seem to resent the perceived power of a union, yet are perfectly comfortable with all the power residing in management........

Steeler, I think they start with a closed mind and the blind trust follows.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

it's an integration of pilots for the same company.

Yep, and that's why NJI pilots will have every single right and benefit afforded to NJA pilots on Day 1.

You wanted us... You're getting us!

 

[BeeDubya]

I do understand what your saying above, especially the part about the potential confusion in the event of furloughs that stretched past the point of full integration. You mentioned several times that this was to also protect NJI people by giving them recall benefits---here is the part many are having a difficult time with on this board---we never asked for and most didn't want any of this--we were very happy with the way things were and would be happy to take our chances! But things have changed and will continue to do so. ...With the vast majority of us feeling as though this was forced upon us how do you propose to heal the wounds? Do you really think we feel a part of the "family" when we don't even get a say as to sits at the integration table? I've been told by some on here that "I don't get it". .. We get it--we understand the need at times for a union---yours was such a need, unfortunately mandated as a result of mangement actions or inaction. What I'm trying to say is that if you truly want this to be one big happy family do not be so rigid when it comes to your future union brothers on the other side and if this union is going to succeed where so many others have failed the leadership must be held accountable to the rank and file always! At the first perception that it is no longer about the workers but more about control, power and greed it is time for a change. Also as a rank and file member--use caution--separate the smoke from the fire--don't shoot the goose that laid the golden egg--it is very fragile, especially these days.

harley,

I have deleted some of your quote above to save space. I will try to address your questions, but I may not take them in order.

I do not believe that I ever stated that you didn't "get it." You'll have to ask those who made the statement.

I think the best answer I can give is that the whole integration process is the result of a dispute, while commonly called a "single carrier" petition, truly, it was a representational dispute. Essentially, if we had taken our case to the NMB, the argument we would make is that the NJI pilots "are or should have been" included in the Unionized craft and class all along -- since the inception of NJI -- that excluding NJI pilots from the represented class and craft violates the RLA. If the courts had ruled in our favor (or if NJI had always been included in the class and craft), then pilots joining NJI were joining a Unionized carrier.

During the 2005 negotiations, one of our bargaining goals was to resolve the "single carrier" issue, that is to capture the NJI flying. It was part of our "6S" goals -- others included issues you mentioned above; basing, pay, etc. So, to my view, part of the "chance" you mention above that all NJI pilots were taking was that the Union would win our single carrier argument via negotiations or the courts. Either way, the result is that NJI pilots would be included in the Unionized class and craft. The NJI pilot group could have attempted an organizing campaign during that time and elected their own Union. It is likely, though, that would have only have changed, not ended, the representational dispute. The NJI pilots could have attempted to join the Union representing NJA pilots. They did not. So, the chance remaining was to allow the Union and management (and perhaps the courts) resolve the issue. That occurred through negotiations, and now we have the integration upon us. You have to realize that one of the "chances" you were taking was that you would be joining a Unionized company without any other affirmative action on your part.

I think you may have some misconceptions about what is occurring at the "integration table." The integration is not negotiations; it is implementation of an agreed-to process and result. The LOA answers the "what" questions. What remains is the "how" and "when" questions. For example, pay, schedules, vacations, bases, etc., were all decided by the signing of LOA 01-013 in 2007. The remittance of the "recognition notice" put the plan in motion. Now, the only questions remaining are along the lines of "does the company implement the contractually required provisions before Nov 21, 2010, and if so, when and how, exactly." But the outcome as of Nov 21, 2010 is defined. The contract will be in place (with 6 exclusions listed in LOA 01-013) on Nov 21, 2010. There are other questions about what the company will do with its operations. Those are questions for the company and they may ask the Union's opinion, but they will do what they will do.

As far as the integration being about power or greed, I would disagree. It is fundamental to the Union's responsibility to its members. I agree that any perception to the contrary should end. The Union is charged with protecting the member's job. One way we do that is by fighting wrongful termination (on an individual level). On a group level, we do that by enforcing the contract. One important aspect of that agreement is the "scope" clause, which jobs are covered under the agreement. Weak scope language, or scope loopholes, can allow companies to shift work to other sister companies or codeshares whose rates of pay, rules and working conditions are more favorable to the company (although not to the workers), eliminating jobs of those who are represented. We saw in NJI, that if the pilots were not included in the represented craft and class, just such a threat. (Conversely, even our best scope language would present the same threat to NJI pilots, that any change to their aircraft from cabin-attended Gulfstream would eliminate NJI jobs.) To my view, this is about job security and ensuring that no one does to the fractional industry what has happened with our 121 brothers and sisters.

Hope this helps,
Brian

 

[NJA bound]

I saw that, too. I concur with your investigative reporting. You have apparently discovered the type of unions that Harley30344 does promote....

This is one of the funniest things I've witnessed here by far...:laugh:

The lying part is what bothers me about a person, if a guy likes watching his wife bang some other dude, that's his own deal, I could care less, a liar is not a man.

 

[netjetwife]

To clarify, the poetic justice of it is what made me laugh-- not the lying, which I take as seriously as you do, NJAb.

H's extracurricular activities are a separate issue, and he could have said that--at least it would have been true. His profile states "average" endowment, but obviously, a pair of parts are missing. Regarding credibility-- he's really screwed now--but he did it to himself. When you act like an ass, you often end up the butt of jokes. Harley30344 came out swinging and busted himself. That's poetic justice that the FI popcorn crowd shouldn't miss...

http://www.google.com/search?q=harley30344&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

 

[harley30344]

harley,

I have deleted some of your quote above to save space. I will try to address your questions, but I may not take them in order.

I do not believe that I ever stated that you didn't "get it." You'll have to ask those who made the statement.

I think the best answer I can give is that the whole integration process is the result of a dispute, while commonly called a "single carrier" petition, truly, it was a representational dispute. Essentially, if we had taken our case to the NMB, the argument we would make is that the NJI pilots "are or should have been" included in the Unionized craft and class all along -- since the inception of NJI -- that excluding NJI pilots from the represented class and craft violates the RLA. If the courts had ruled in our favor (or if NJI had always been included in the class and craft), then pilots joining NJI were joining a Unionized carrier.

During the 2005 negotiations, one of our bargaining goals was to resolve the "single carrier" issue, that is to capture the NJI flying. It was part of our "6S" goals -- others included issues you mentioned above; basing, pay, etc. So, to my view, part of the "chance" you mention above that all NJI pilots were taking was that the Union would win our single carrier argument via negotiations or the courts. Either way, the result is that NJI pilots would be included in the Unionized class and craft. The NJI pilot group could have attempted an organizing campaign during that time and elected their own Union. It is likely, though, that would have only have changed, not ended, the representational dispute. The NJI pilots could have attempted to join the Union representing NJA pilots. They did not. So, the chance remaining was to allow the Union and management (and perhaps the courts) resolve the issue. That occurred through negotiations, and now we have the integration upon us. You have to realize that one of the "chances" you were taking was that you would be joining a Unionized company without any other affirmative action on your part.

I think you may have some misconceptions about what is occurring at the "integration table." The integration is not negotiations; it is implementation of an agreed-to process and result. The LOA answers the "what" questions. What remains is the "how" and "when" questions. For example, pay, schedules, vacations, bases, etc., were all decided by the signing of LOA 01-013 in 2007. The remittance of the "recognition notice" put the plan in motion. Now, the only questions remaining are along the lines of "does the company implement the contractually required provisions before Nov 21, 2010, and if so, when and how, exactly." But the outcome as of Nov 21, 2010 is defined. The contract will be in place (with 6 exclusions listed in LOA 01-013) on Nov 21, 2010. There are other questions about what the company will do with its operations. Those are questions for the company and they may ask the Union's opinion, but they will do what they will do.

As far as the integration being about power or greed, I would disagree. It is fundamental to the Union's responsibility to its members. I agree that any perception to the contrary should end. The Union is charged with protecting the member's job. One way we do that is by fighting wrongful termination (on an individual level). On a group level, we do that by enforcing the contract. One important aspect of that agreement is the "scope" clause, which jobs are covered under the agreement. Weak scope language, or scope loopholes, can allow companies to shift work to other sister companies or codeshares whose rates of pay, rules and working conditions are more favorable to the company (although not to the workers), eliminating jobs of those who are represented. We saw in NJI, that if the pilots were not included in the represented craft and class, just such a threat. (Conversely, even our best scope language would present the same threat to NJI pilots, that any change to their aircraft from cabin-attended Gulfstream would eliminate NJI jobs.) To my view, this is about job security and ensuring that no one does to the fractional industry what has happened with our 121 brothers and sisters.

Hope this helps,
Brian

You have spent a considerable amount of time answering my questions-Thank you. Your explanations are well thought out and in some cases convincing. I have expressed my views and the views held by many at NJI. As you read the post you will see that I have been personally attacked directly ever since. I made the statement early on that there is a difference in the service culture between the 2 entities and seems as though many took personal offense. It wasn't meant to do that, let me explain what it was meant to do. We all travel on the airlines--how do you like the service? Go to the njasap site and read about the grievances that have been filed and the employees that are being protected by the union. You will find incidents where bad service by an employee is being defended by the union. The point: in the past unions defended poor to mediocre performance employees--this then permeates into the service provided to the customers. Where is the incentive to excel? Is it everyone--no, absolutely not--but it is enough that it affects customer service. Deny all you want but just fly a 121 operator for substantiation. We have NJA crossovers on the I side that cannot even perform their job functions but yet they are protected. Too safe in your job too often leads to poor job performance and complacency. This is what I was and am addressing. You want top shelf customer service---get rid of the bad ones, don't defend them.

Another of the reasons I'm not pro-union is eximplified by this very site. There are too many members that will go after you personally if you disagree with them---true, almost all organizations have zealots at this level but my experience has taught me the numbers are higher in unions and the attackers more rabid. One individual has already tried to link me to rather unsavory sites in an attempt to personally smear me. What is next--is he going to tell me he knows where my kids go to school? BTW--just one last comment to him directly--you are way off base and everyone that knows me will tell you that I am no liar and have never been.

When individuals take others observations personal maybe some soul searching should be done. A statement of perception never covers everyone in the entire organization. But just maybe it will put the light on the cockroaches that need to scurry back under the door and leave. One final comment--I have mentioned control, power and greed permeating through and ruining a union--along these lines comes my question. Njasap has paid their former union a large sum of money--why?

 

[HazMat]

harley I have enjoyed reading your posts. They really have taught me alot about the union process. It bothers me as well that a union will defend a pilot who doesn't deserve the job because of his actions. It just make us all look bad. The attackers make the union look like nothing more than a bunch of bullies. Trully sad you should all be ashamed. Thanks for the education

 

[wolfpackpilot]

ATTENTION EVERYONE



Lets keep these discussions civil and within the bounds of what is prevalent.

While it may seem funny that a screen name appears elsewhere when you Google it... Its NOT OK to assume its the same person. ESPECIALLY when it has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. Regardless if it is the same person or not, they should have the right to keep that part of their life private... A personal life has no reflection on that persons professional career, no matter what you think of it.

My screen name appears 1,432 times and mostly revolves around a WWII fighter Ace who had close ties to the Nazi Party... That isn't me.

Point being, we can agree to disagree and throw insults all day long, but lets keep them in the ball field. I'm sure if you asked my ex-wife what she thought of me, you'd hear words like a sailor on shore leave.


Billy V
aka Wolfpackpilot

 

[Pervis]

harley I have enjoyed reading your posts. They really have taught me alot about the union process. It bothers me as well that a union will defend a pilot who doesn't deserve the job because of his actions. It just make us all look bad. The attackers make the union look like nothing more than a bunch of bullies. Trully sad you should all be ashamed. Thanks for the education

You're going to "learn" about the union process from an outsider looking in? You are bothered that "undeserving" pilots are protected by the union? I would think you'd be just as willing to learn from those working within, and are smart enough to realize there are bad apples in both union and non-union shops. I hope your post is tongue in cheek, but there are those that truely think like that.

I doubt Harley is ashamed, nor are any of us in the Netjets family. Harley seems a bit nervous about something both new and unexpected till recently. RTS promised for a long time NJI would never be a union shop, so I would be nervous too. Just remember who's advantage it is to have division between the ranks. Management has been highly successful across this industry, yet most continue to neglect that fact. I would like to point out a few facts about the upcoming merger.

1) NJI are pay protected and seat locked. They can't be bumped from their equipment or seat. Bad for us, as the most junior captain is 5 years my junior, but I'll survive. Bad for the current SICs, as the will most likely never upgrade in a G (unless the remaining 47 are upgraded in the next 1.5 years). See, it goes both ways. In fact, the current PIC/SIC ratio at NJI is a huge advantage to their majority.

2) Work and rest rules are a huge benefit NJI pilots will enjoy. No doubt the overall CBA will be supplemented by long range rules, but overall there is a huge improvement in QOL the NJI folks will see.

3) Overtime, holiday pay, and after midnight penalties will be huge improvements, and are equally administered. Very little "A" team treatment, which I know now exists at NJI. Yes, some exists at NJA too.

4) Guaranteed wage increases administered equally. Merit based systems seem better to some, but no way they can be administered fairly with well over 3000 pilots.

5) And Harley, we have a 100% satisfaction rate among our customers, so don't even suggest somthing of which you know naught.

These are just a few things Harley and the others can look forward to. Look for the positive-there's a lot more than a half full glass there.

 

[netjetwife]

....As you read the post you will see that I have been personally attacked directly ever since. The attacker crying victim--how typical.. I made the statement early on that there is a difference in the service culture between the 2 entities and seems as though many took personal offense. A convenient memory that ignores all the insults in your prior posts changes none of them. It wasn't meant to do that, let me explain what it was meant to do. Code for I will now insult you in a more reasonable tone. ... Go to the njasap site and read about the grievances that have been filed and the employees that are being protected by the union. You will find incidents where bad service by an employee is being defended by the union. Correction, you will find DFR. In your deep-seated disrespect you are too arrogant to realize that you're ignorant where Unions are concerned. The point: in the past unions defended poor to mediocre performance employees Reality: Unions have to follow labor laws which mandate Duty of Fair Representation for every member. --this then permeates into the service provided to the customers. Where is the incentive to excel? Implied disparagement is still insulting. Is it everyone--no, absolutely not--but it is enough that it affects customer service. Only in your skewed, self-serving opinion. Deny all you want but just fly a 121 operator for substantiation. Another biased remark passed of as "evidence" that is actually nothing more than discrimination and rationalization. ... This is what I was and am addressing. Although you lack the knowledge to do so and your unsought advice to skip due process could lead to lawsuits. You want top shelf customer service--- Your insinuation that it is lacking is unfounded and insulting-- to the entire A side. get rid of the bad ones, don't defend them. NJASAP will continue to operate professionally and legally following DFR rules that provide oversight and equality. Arbitration is binding as the A pilots can attest. Those found to be in error will continue to face remedial action to include suspensions without pay and even termination. The myth that Unions protect bad pilots is perpetrated by the anti-union crowd; it's not a reflection of reality.

Another of the reasons I'm not pro-union is eximplified by this very site. There are too many members that will go after you personally if you disagree with them Another fudspinner... Reality check: when you insult others and attack what they value, those with a backbone will stand their ground. Keep pushing and they will push back. ---true, almost all organizations have zealots at this level but my experience has taught me the numbers are higher in unions and the attackers more rabid. Another blanket, unproven statement = self-serving FUD. In contrast, I point to this forum and the posts of B19, Skanza, and their ilk. One individual has already tried to link me to rather unsavory sites in an attempt to personally smear me. I saw the age on the profile change within minutes during the exchange you had with NJAbound regarding it. It is entirely too coincidental to defy logic and even Juries are instructed to use their common sense, but in the interest of respecting a member's privacy I will drop it --if you will. Saved by the Wolf. ...

When individuals take others observations personal maybe some soul searching should be done. A good example of backpedaling. A statement of perception never covers everyone in the entire organization. Broad-brush biased opinions offered as factual commentary do just that. Fair-minded people qualify their remarks and avoid discriminating ones. But just maybe it will put the light on the cockroaches that need to scurry back under the door and leave. This description of professional pilots has earned you another sign--RABID One final comment--I have mentioned control, power and greed permeating through and ruining a union--along these lines comes my question. Njasap has paid their former union a large sum of money--why?

You're one to talk about permeation... From your first post to this one, the prejudiced comments and unwarranted insults continue nonstop. And talk about trying to smear someone... I'll answer the question, but I protest the way it was couched with your insidious implication. The money was part of the transparent process of leaving the Teamsters who claimed the 1108 assets they were legally entitled to. NJASAP borrowed seed money to get started--along with donations from the NJA pilots. Thanks everyone! It was another in a long line of honorable actions. My family is proud to be associated with this fine group of professionals. NJW

 

[CaveoFalco]

..... But just maybe it will put the light on the cockroaches that need to scurry back under the door and leave. One final comment--I have mentioned control, power and greed permeating through and ruining a union--along these lines comes my question. Njasap has paid their former union a large sum of money--why?

Apparently you have read the NJASAP 411. Get your facts straight prior spewing your BS - it just makes you look stupid. If you bothered to read the NJASAP - IBT separation agreement you would see that NJASAP was able to secure a loan of our own dues money to the tune of $377,305.72 which was to be paid back in 12 installments. This was a loan to start our own Union so we could meet payroll, provide representation, and continue to provide the service NJA pilots have come to expect. The final payment on that loan was made this week thus closing that chapter. Nice try though - don't let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy.

The sad part your total commentary is that you actually do more harm to the profession than good by spouting your lies. Look to the oppression that is the regional airline carrier business. Most of what you said is not true. Pilots that are wrongfully terminated by the Company get reinstated by an arbitrator not the Union, we just argue the case. What that says to me is that you do not trust the judicial process of this country. Not once has the Company attempted to or even been interested in disciplining a pilot over lack of or poor service.

NJI pilots maintain employment by the grace of Mr. Santulli. The bottom 30% of the NJI pilots that are not needed keep their positions by the VSL. By all rights, they should have been gone some time ago. NJI is not operating in the black as you said. That too is a lie.

Do yourself a favor and go read labor history in this country. Start with the slavery of the 1700s and continue on into death, despair, and oppression that Company managers have historically reaped on their employees in the coal, gold, and silver mines of the country. It is a disgusting and embarrassing part of US history. Union busting firms continue to ignore what has been done to the very workers that have built this country. The same thing, with a white collar twinge continues today. Care to work at Colgan for less than $20K per year?

Based on what I have read, the good news for you personally is that if you get laid off (terminated is a better word since you have not contractually protected recall rights) at NJI, I am sure Ford and Harrison would like to have you in their employ. I will look forward to sitting across from the table from you in such a case, where I can tell you what I really think of your anti-worker attitude. Truly sad.

 

[netjetwife]

Yep, and that's why NJI pilots will have every single right and benefit afforded to NJA pilots on Day 1.

As it should be.

You wanted us... You're getting us!

I'm confident that the NJI pilots will receive a friendly welcome befitting their status as professionals in the same industry and counterparts in the same Company. Kudos to you Billy/Wolf for helping with Integration. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing ... If you've read my post above regarding integration attitudes, you'll realize that's a compliment... Good luck to all NJ team members (aka "family") in the challenging days ahead! NJW

 

[Fozzy]

Yep, and that's why NJI pilots will have every single right and benefit afforded to NJA pilots on Day 1.

You wanted us... You're getting us!

Ya but you have not read Section 31 yet have you?
That says that all you NJI guys must buy all the rounds till the next CBA!

I look forward till all this is over with. No more long winded posts about I vs. A sides.

 

[HazMat]

NJW why is Harley not allowed to have an opinion? He doesn't want a union and it was forced on him. Now he has to like it because you say so.

 

[brokeflyer]

NJW why is Harley not allowed to have an opinion? He doesn't want a union and it was forced on him. Now he has to like it because you say so.

nothing is forced on him. He can choose not to participate and no one will ridicule him for it.

Choice is all his. I think what everyone is trying to say is he'll be better off having representation.

I dont really care for unions myself, I think they are expensive and out-dated, but the other option of being at the mercy of idiot managers is worse.